RE: Please help me understand.

RE: Please help me understand. (Full Version)

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domtimothy46176 -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 1:01:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth <SNIP> Going from screen name to screen name is an obvious ploy. Seems to happen all the time on CollarMe. But the question is, is "real" NEVER in the picture? And if so, shouldn't they be at least be honest and let the other person know? If not they are very dangerous predators, and their victims have only their experience with them as the image of this lifestyle. Is honesty and the other person's emotional health totally irrelevant? I know it was a rhetorical question but I think it needs to be addressed yet again. Far too many have absolutely no regard for honesty or other people's emotions. Guarding against those kinds of narcissistic users is the worst part of maintaing an online presence, IMO. Timothy

darkinshadows -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 3:43:51 AM)
quote: i'm with you 100% Merc. Totally agree. Unfortunetlyl, online, you never know who has real life experience and who doesnt! Unless of course you chat and see pics i suppose. Dunno i'd think those who dont are pretty easy to spot. i think they do it cos its easier. Less work involved. So of course they havent the understanding of how "hard" it can be. I would say that it is hard to spot anyone as anything, period... it isnt just online peeps. You can't tell if someone is who they say they are without, quite frankly, being in the FBI... and even that would be difficult. I have met people who are 'real-time', who attend munches, gatherings.... who have friends who are in the 'Lifestyle' who would talk about everything as if they know a situation intimately, but who, if placed in that situation, wouldn't know where to turn... at least, not from MY viewpoint. It's not about who and what they are, its about what and who people are to individuals involved, regardless of what lifestyle they belong to. As for how 'hard' it can be... I think that difficulities are relevant to the people involved. I don't think anyone would or could say that 'online' is easy(just ask people who have had those relationships... of any kind, not just BDSM... but friends as well).... its just that the difficulties encountered are different... Peace and Love *edit for typo & add-on

darkinshadows -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 4:10:03 AM)
quote: Is there a "real time", "most time", "anytime", "sometime" heirachy that us newbies dont know about? Unfortunately, it seems the answer is 'yes'... For some people, it seems that only when you have passed every examination does one become a fully fledged 'real-timer'. If that is the case... then I humbly conceed that I am not a 'real-timer' in many peoples eyes. But then, I am happy with that fact. If perfection is what it takes to become real... if knowing everything will make me 'true'... then I want no part of it. I want to learn. Maybe at the end of my journey, I will know everything... I will become the 'Master' of my chosen life... but then, what will I be able to learn then? We are not gods or great deities. We are people taking a journey in which we grow and learn something new everyday. On another thread, someone asks 'What are the signs of a good Dom/me? and goes onto ask about subs/slaves also. For me, I would say that the most important thing is, that a Person knows that the journey NEVER ends and who is willing to learn constantly, holds a huge humility within their heart, whatever and whoever and however old they are.... Realtime, Oneline, Sometime, 24/7, Dominant, Submissive, Switch, Slave, Kajira, Pet, Boy, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy... Peace and Love

SecretDomme -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 5:17:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Once again my prejudicial position regarding "relationships" that people claim they have that are exclusively on-line. Even using the word "relationship" pains me because if isolated I'd bet the individuals would have very different ideas about the "relationship". Without even considering the aspect that many playing on-line games are in committed relationships or married, and are in my opinion cheating. I want to understand what is the difference between on-line scening and remote mutual masturbation? It's sill your fingers, hands, or your hands on household appliances, doing the 'work'. Do you need someone at the other end of the Internet to orchestrate? Is the glow of the computer screen, and the jumping movements of a web cam image really that erotic? Why does it bug me so much? Simple - when these people provide lifestyle relationship advise there is no disclaimer attached saying the closest they've ever been to a paddle, crop, or cuff is the avatar picture on CollarMe. I'm sure some have the same practical experience with a person to person relationship. What bothers me are people who use this advise and then go out in the real world and fail. Maybe the people who partake in this kind of play are the same people who have a need to create 10 different profiles and play with themselves mentally. On-line is just the physical aspect of the mental masturbation practiced in many of the recent threads. Maybe it's what they do between 'sessions'. I really want to understand the goal? What is the "BEST RESULT" you can expect from an on-line encounter? How long do you get away with baiting an innocent participant who has a personal goal of meeting and partaking in this lifestyle real time? Is that part of the game? Do you keep score and discuss with other players? Does this exchange occur regularly in some kind of on-line players chat-room? "I strung out this poor bastard for 3 years promising I'd meet him/her. Can you believe that?? What a stupid, trusting, fool!!" Being politically correct has never been my strongest point. I make no effort to be PC on subjects that I believe are absolutes. And my absolutes on this subject are simple. There can not be a Master or a slave in an exclusively on-line relationship. There is no relationship, there is the perception of a relationship. It's a fantasy. Nothing wrong with fantasy, until you feel your fantasy experience qualifies you as if you really know something. Playing a golf simulator game I can shoot a 65 at Augusta and win the Masters. I wouldn't consider myself a golf pro by ANY means. If I ever played the course I'd be lucky to break 100 - hell I'd be lucky to break 150 under tournament conditions. Those that play with flight simulators - think you could really fly an F-14? And I don't think anyone would be silly enough to walk up to an F-14 pilot at an air show and say; "You know, I've got 5000 'Flight Simulator' hours on that jet. Next time you should take your barrel roll with a little less flap and more speed." I'm sure the pilot would be very impressed. As a Domme who explored this lifestyle online for about three years prior to having the opportunity to seek real life D/s, I can tell you that online relationships can be approached in a very serious way, if both people are serious about exploring it in this manner. I'm not talking about those that go into a chatroom for a night and do "sessions". I am referring to long-term relationships that sometimes form between two people online. In my case, I was in a vanilla marriage, but had aspects of BDSM in my head since the age of 7, and finally decided to explore more online at the age of 33. Yes, it was hidden from my husband at first, but I did eventually tell him over time. My most meaningful online D/s relationship lasted just over a year. Online for us consisted of chat, voice chat, or talking on the phone. We did not plan or expect to take it to real life (he is in England), and when I was ready to move on to real life (I separated from my husband), our D/s relationship ended (he had reasons to end it as well). We remain in contact, via email, for over two years now. We do so much talking about how psychological this lifestyle can be, and when you have a meaningful, long-term relationship online, you develop that side very nicely, in my opinion. No, I didn't crack my whip against his skin in real life, but he used to tell me that the tone of my voice or even the way I typed something out produced a change in his behavior. Was it a sexual turn-on? Yes- for both of us. Did we masturbate in front of a computer screen? No. ( OK- sometimes he did when I gave him permission) The point is that it went way beyond that, and most of the things I had him do or think about were done offline. The fact that I experienced D/s online , which was the only way possible for me at the time, did not make me less dominant in my ideas or feelings. I made an effort to spend time in chatrooms that were made up of real life couples, and many friends that I did meet offline were in real life relationships. I spent a lot of time trying to understand my sub's mindset and feelings with everything we did. I sought out safety information because I knew that was important, even when I was telling someone to do something online. I approached my online relationships as I would real life- seeking an exclusive partner to share my interests. Once I was able to move on to real life, I did. Yes, I missed the physical aspects of D/s when I was online, but I would not classify my experience online as inferior to anyone else's- just different. Now that I have had real life, online does not hold the same interest for me, and so I choose not to participate in online situations other than to meet likeminded people. Be well, Julie

CitizenCane -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 3:08:23 PM)
I can see both (or several) sides of this. On the one hand, there are certainly satisfactions to real-life relationships, especially D/s and BDSM ones, that can't be duplicated on-line (with current technology... [;)]). On the other hand, there is a lot of intense personal contact that is possible through the medium of print- look at the letter-writers of the 18th and 19th centuries. On the other other hand... Well, one problem in online relationships is validating the 'reality quotient' of the person you're talking to. But then, if RQ's were easy to establish r/t, there would be a lot fewer divorces, break-ups, etc. Really knowing another person is a dicey undertaking under the best of circumstances. For my money, though, face-to-face, body-to-body, intense interaction is what it's about. If I want love letters, nothing prevents me from making her sit in the corner and write them... Citizen Cane

merrymasochist -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/12/2005 6:07:10 PM)
personally, i think online relationships have a as much emotional validity and intensity as each of the correspondents invest in it... ~smiles~ that being said, i do hold with the belief that strictly online experience does not and cannot equate to real time physical experience... writing the word "thwap" is a far cry from holding a whip or cane in your hand and knowing how to use it safely, just as liking the idea of being caned or spanked is a long way from being an actual masochist... online is a wonderful thing in its own right for learning, exploring new ideas safely, bringing together like-minded people and helpful in maintaining LDR's... it can give an emotional reality but it's not the same as face to face contact and physical hands-on experience... sincerely, merry

MidnightWriter -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/13/2005 8:52:17 AM)
Several unrelated points to make here. 1 - I got the single best piece of relationship advice I've ever gotten from a virgin. What she told me was, roughly "Be yourself. If you try to be what they want, they'll love what you're doing, not who you are - and the person who's looking for who you are will miss you entirely. It may take longer, but it'll be worth the wait." She'd never been in, or wanted, a romantic relationship, but I've never regretted taking that advice to heart. I just gave advice to somone trying for an LDR, when I've never been in one - and I was clear that this advice was not coming from extensive experience on my part. Someone may give me advice that's unhelpful, because it doesn't match my situation - but I'm not going to dis them for trying to help. I've never made peanut brittle, but I cook and bake, and can pass along a recipe for peanut brittle - it's your call whether it sounds like a good recipe or not. Where they're coming from does not necessarily indicate how good their advice is. Caveat damn emptor. 2 - Intolerance sucks, and we can all find it - we are a persecuted minority. If you REALLY need to express intolerance of someone else's personal preference, do feel free to log into a religious or feminist web site that gets to frothing in the mouth that we exist - they deserve your opposition. Nail to the wall anyone who is violating consent - they're fair game. But tender respect toward your fellow travellers, regardless of how appealing you think their kink is. They don't need any more disapproval any more than you do, and if they wanted it, they'd not come here for it. They, and I, and you, come here for a kink-friendly environment - so be friendly about thier kink, dammit! If their kink is not-okay, then there's room for your kink to be not-okay - and room for mine to be seriously bad. I'd just as soon not let that not-okay judgemental monster into the room - do YOU really want it here? 3 - I've never been in a romantic or d/s LDR. I've been online for a long time (remember 1200 baud modems? BBSs, before there was an internet?), and I've made good, solid emotional connections to friends around the globe. Jaggery, Inquisitor, Leona Joy, Spectrum, Phillip the Foole, Kajira, Equus and Ms. Casey, Tanith, Binder, Laylah, and the ineffible Nurse Jones - just a handful of the good friends I've made and people I've admired, in a forum much more chaotic than this - very little email, mostly public stuff, where you took your guts out and spilled them on the table to share with a half-million or so of your closest friends. That forum is gone - but dear Ghu, people - it was REAL, even if it was only text on a screen. I knew many of them better than I knew my next-door neighbors, and had the great good luck to meet a few of them RL. For here and now, well - either I am a real person talking to you, in the comfort of your own chair, or this is simply me wanking. If this is just me wanking, then I've got better things to do with my time - like sort my belly button lint collection. If I'm a real person, then LDRs can be real, as well - deal with it. 4 - If I may be a tad USAian, let me paraphrase one of the Founding Fathers of my home country, who said "We need to hang together, because if we cannot do that, we shall surely hang separately". Freedom is more restricted every day - and we, as a group, are on someone's list of people to outlaw. Division amongst ourselves merely makes their goals easier to reach.

harmony3709 -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/13/2005 8:24:56 PM)
applauds Very well said, Midnight!! harmony

DomPervNSadist -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/14/2005 12:11:22 AM)
My goodness what a fascinating bunch I've found. As to the validity of online relationships well that is one that each person has to decide for themselves. For Myself, well I've had online relationships that were very intense but I will admit did not last over long because eventually without something real to anchor them, there tends to be mental and emotional drift. I am in a relationship now that W/we both intend to take into the physical world. Right now distance and circumstances seperate U/us. We are working towards overcoming both. To help anchor the relationship in the real, W/we have both exchanged pictures and talk frequently on the phone. Both of us desire to live O/our true natures together 24/7. And W/we both know that this will be a challenge but so is living with someone you love 24/7 in a vanilla relationship I feel. I can see the validity of being unhappy with people who come off as grand know it alls who haven't done anything in the physical. But there are people out there as well who are willing to be honest as to their experience or lack of and simply are sharing their thoughts and ideas. For Me personally I find that the more real I get the less time I spend playing online. It is less satisfying all the time especially as I grow more deeply in love with My slave. I will not deny that when I was first experimenting I did the thousand and one screen names. A lot of that though was because I was attempting to distance Myself from My true nature. Now that I have accepted Myself I use only one name. It's the longer version of the name I use here at CM. I think that in a forum that is basically a cyber fuck room, honesty is really up to the individual. I won't deny that I used to tell whoppers. Now I don't. I don't feel the need. I will admit though that I share the sense of concern over people who come to places like this that are clearly about reality and disrespect it by playing games and assuming false persona's. It is a problem that comes up in another part of My life. I'm a Pagan and often see the flood tide come in of people who are assuming a persona rather than showing their real selves and talking about how their spirituality and their life interact. At the end of the day though I have only My own house to keep in order and while I might not agree with such individuals I have much better things to do with My time than try and bring them to heel. Peace and long life

ElektraUkM -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/14/2005 3:40:34 AM)
I'm involved in a relationship (yes) with someone which is conducted online (including cams) and by phone. I'd just like to make the point that just because its not the Dom applying the clamps, electrodes, rope, wax, whip or whatever, doesn't make it any less 'real'. Our relationship is about control, and that can be done just as effectively (I'd argue) at a distance than it can be with both people in the same room. His control of me is not just in these types of activities, but in many other aspects of my life including my art and my writing. I am totally committed to my Master and wouldn't dream of lying or shirking any task he gave me. What would be the point of that? For me, service is something I live whether the Owner is anywhere near me or not. If that's not 'real' in some people's eyes, then so be it. Elektra

darkinshadows -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/14/2005 3:55:24 AM)
quote: Our relationship is about control I think that sums it up perfectly well in a nutshell. Peace

Mercnbeth -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 1:35:55 PM)
Do to circumstances beyond my control, I couldn't follow up on this thread as I wanted to and as a result I didn't reply directly to many of the great comments on both sides of this issue. Thank you all! I've looked closely and this question is still outstanding. Can anyone address this question I posed in the original post? What is the "BEST RESULT" you can expect from an on-line encounter? To put this in the proper context, I'm asking this to learn the perspective of those with EXCLUSIVE on-line lifestyle relationships, not those that 'cyber' (hope that's still a Politically Correct term) in between meeting or in between real time relationships. I guess this also brings up another question. Personalizing this, I did have a relationship goal in mind when I started my search for a slave. I am by nature 'goal' oriented. When I do something I'd like it to have a purpose. Having a goal helps me focus, and its my believe, it's helped me succeed. But does everyone feel they need a defined relationship goal?

sub4hire -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 2:20:49 PM)
quote: What is the "BEST RESULT" you can expect from an on-line encounter? The exact same result as you have had. I met Doug in a California chat room. If memory serves you met beth with an online ad. So, same as you. Just depends on what sort of relationship the parties are seeking. If you want a superficial one, then that is the absolute best. If you want a lifetime relationship then that is the absolute best.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 2:27:20 PM)
quote: The exact same result as you have had. I met Doug in a California chat room. If memory serves you met beth with an online ad. Absolutely correct. beth & I met through an on-line ad. But we did not have a cyber relationship. We exchanged information and background until meeting; which if memory serves was about 2 weeks from her response. But here I'm asking the question of those who "exclusively on-line".

Atavist -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 2:45:47 PM)
An interesting topic so I'll jump in. I apologize if I ramble, its a huge topic with lots of shades of gray. Some thoughts- Online relationships - I suspect most of the people on CM have experienced an online relationship that went beyond friendship and included elements of D/s, bdsm, emotional attachment and in some cases the "L" word (love). I have, so I'm not casting stones. Do online relationships have some value? Assuming both parties are honest and a reasonable level of trust is achieved, two people can learn alot about themselves and their "partner". Thats valuable. Does this replace a real-time relationship or even come close to the complexity, beauty, heartbreak, intimacy that can only be reached through being together? Absolutely not. Online relationships occur for lots of reasons - distance, fantasy, neurosis, disability to name a few. For me, the question isn't are online relationships good/bad, the question is - what is the intended outcome of the online interaction? To develop an intimate relationship with someone online with every intention of meeting (within a reasonable timeframe) is very different from immersing onself in fantasy. At some point the later can become pure delusion. Not healthy, not good, dumb. Married and Cheating - If you find yourself searching for online relationships and your married, try sucking it up, being an adult and facing the problems that confront you at home. No rationalizations, no yada yada, just deal with it. Its painful, its frightening, it sucks! But having a torrid online romance isn't going to resolve anything and its likely to further alienate you from your spouse. Its also a form of escapism and denial. If you care for yourself, your spouse and your children, work for the best possible outcome for everyone involved, whatever that might be. A last thought on who is/isn't qualified to give advice here or anywhere else. For starters, I don't give a rats ass about how good you are with a flogger. Its irrelevent (unless the topic is flogging). I dont care about your toys, how many years you've been a Grand Master or a "true slave" or how many subs/slaves/Masters you've had. All I care about is whether your honest and sincere. People who rely on some artificial bdsm "pecking order" for some kind of status are, in my obervations, generally strikingly insecure.

sub4hire -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 2:57:37 PM)
quote: I'm asking the question of those who "exclusively on-line". Where is Proud when you need her? As we know this same question even posed by you has been answered numerous times in the past here on the board's. About the same responses each time. The only difference is, a couple of new people on the forum's haven't read and responded yet. I hope you get what you want out of it this time. Myself as in other times, I'd take the same road atavist did here.

MsLisa -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 3:00:57 PM)
This has been a pretty interesting thread. Couple of random thoughts.......from the orginal post quote: Without even considering the aspect that many playing on-line games are in committed relationships or married, and are in my opinion cheating. If its not a relationship how is it cheating? How does it differ from a Playboy mag? Do I think its a relationship? Yeppers. As several stated it is as real as the participants want it to be. Are there gamers with no intention to ever going real time. Yeppers. Do people with real intentions get sucked into the world of someone else's fantasy? Yeppers. Sad but true. I have been in one online relationship which lasted three years. What was the "BEST RESULT" I expected from the on-line encounter? Growth, friendship, understanding...same thing I expect in any long term relationship in any venue. The online relationship resulted in my best friend. Though the relationship I was in never had on-line "sceneing". I can't fathom that the word smack means much. Circumstances changed and we did eventually move to real time...a LDR that lasted 2 1/2 years. We spent 4-6 days every 4 weeks together. 6 weeks together each summer (3 of 'em) and 4 weeks together over Christmas for two years. And guess what? He is still my best friend. We've been in a "non-relationship" now for 2 1/2 years, still spend oodles of time together and still count on each other for advice/inspiration/help/guidance and all the other things we counted on each other 7 years ago when we were "just online". People without experience giving advice...... Whenever I am in a forum and someone asks for advice...I always tell them take it with a HUGE grain of salt. The people giving it are strangers who only let you into a window of their lives. There is much about them that is unknown. Some people are good hearted and only give advice to help others. Some like to be know-it-alls. Some give advice to "show off" their own lifestlyes/skills. I shudder to think that someone would take the advice of the 30-100 people who are going to give it as gospel. Someone said take what you want or can use from someone's advice and toss the rest. That, I think, was great advice...at least thats the parts I'm keeping. Thanks for the ramblings.......

proudsub -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 5:20:45 PM)
quote: Where is Proud when you need her? Here are what i think are the most comprehensive threads on online D/s: can one truly submit online can o/l stuff work online relationships online D/s

caitlyn -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/15/2005 6:24:26 PM)
Merc & Beth ... It would seem prudent to me, to seperate those wanting exclusively online relationships, with those that seem to get a kick out of stringing people on. People wanting the former, are not by default the latter. People that want online relationships, and are honest about what they want, can probably get exactly what they are looking for ... which is my answer to your question. Who knows their motivation, and in part that is really none of our business. They are not hurting me, nor are they hurting you. To use your own analogy, playing online golf may not make you a Master's Champion, but you can have a wonderful time playing online, or you wouldn't play. I trust you don't wear a green jacket when you play. [;)] I do love your posts, and read them with great interest. Thanks ... caitlyn

Mercnbeth -> RE: Please help me understand. (3/16/2005 8:07:55 AM)
quote: exclusively online relationships, with those that seem to get a kick out of stringing people on. People wanting the former, are not by default the latter. caitlyn, This is a great point and is really the crux of the matter. If both people are honest and open, and on-line is a goal onto itself - HAVE FUN! I think the problems occur when someone is dishonest. Or, when the relationship starts as "fun" and something more serious evolves. When that happens one or both of the parties can get hurt. It's the reason I take issue with married people playing this game even with the best intentions. It's playing with fire! All that sexual and casual banter can be misinterpreted. Often I've seen on-line people defend their on-line relationships by commenting that they can say things to their on-line play partner that they can/won't say to their live in partner. HOW SAD IS THAT? But if that's occurring how soon does something evolve that wasn't intended? Even if the seriousness only derives from one side, at minimum you end up with a stalker, or a very hurt, sad, and lonely person. Then the unknowing spouse, kids, and all the other real life innocent people are all of a sudden affected by this 'innocent' fantasy.

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