Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (Full Version)

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FragileRose -> Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 5:52:03 PM)

quote:

I'm still of the belief that sadism exists in all D/s relationships. It's simply that many people simply don't seem to see it for what it is....but that's another topic. I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.


I lifted the quote above from my post on erotic humiliation and embarrassment. I am genuinely curious to hear from other submissives in D/s situations about whether they believe Sadism exists in their relationship.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 7:54:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FragileRose

quote:

I'm still of the belief that sadism exists in all D/s relationships. It's simply that many people simply don't seem to see it for what it is....but that's another topic. I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.


I lifted the quote above from my post on erotic humiliation and embarrassment. I am genuinely curious to hear from other submissives in D/s situations about whether they believe Sadism exists in their relationship.


I'm surprised you moved this to ask a submissive and are asking only submissives.

- LA



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 8:37:33 PM)

quote:

quote:

I'm still of the belief that sadism exists in all D/s relationships. It's simply that many people simply don't seem to see it for what it is....but that's another topic. I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.

I lifted the quote above from my post on erotic humiliation and embarrassment. I am genuinely curious to hear from other submissives in D/s situations about whether they believe Sadism exists in their relationship.


To some degree, I believe in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause. However, believing doesn't necessarily make it so.

The person who got lifted here is certainly entitled to believe what ever they wish. To be able to quantify this belief that sadism exists in all D/s relationships is the sort of hypothesis that can never been proven.

I always got presents under the Christmas Tree and there was always a quarter in exchange for a tooth. Who am I to argue where they came from?

Lily



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 8:39:13 PM)

Whenever someone makes a comment about how "this is how things are, but no one else sees it that way" it should make you think for a moment...

Some people do define dominance and submission as being inherently sadistic or masochistic. I can understand where they are coming from.

For me, the literal definitions of S&M aren't the same as what people in Ds do. Plus, considering I'm a slave who hates pain, calling me a masochist just confuses me with the whores who beg to be flogged and such.



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 8:52:56 PM)

quote:

For me, the literal definitions of S&M aren't the same as what people in Ds do. Plus, considering I'm a slave who hates pain, calling me a masochist just confuses me with the whores who beg to be flogged and such.


Hrm...them's fight'in words. Some of us who are 'whores who beg to be flogged and such," may simply construe those of you who have the audacity to call yourselves 'slaves', state clearly in your profiles that you do painful things, but say you aren't into pain might just call you a posuer.

But, then I would be judging, and I don't do such things.

Lily (the occasional pain slut and flog whore)



perverseangelic -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/11/2005 11:17:02 PM)

Well, my partner isn't sadistic. He derives no pleasure whatsoever from the act of hurting me. He enjoys my -reaction- to being hurt (the arousal) but not imparting pain for pains sake. I'd say that means he's not a sadist.

I wonder what the originater of the quote means by "It's simply that many people simply don't seem to see it for what it is"



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 4:36:22 AM)

I am living in the dynamics of a D/s relationship.

That is (and this is my description, doesn't make it everyones) -

My relationship has a Dominant Figure and a Submissive One. What we 'label' ourselves as has nothing to do with that dynamic, and is not relevant to anyone else but ourselves*.
What we do within this dynamic, again has no baring upon it being a D/s relationship. Whether we use pain, pleasure, discipline, humiliation, love or jelly...

*ourselves= Dominants Desire

In another thread, I put how I felt about BDSM being a tree. Bdsm is the trunk...D/s, Sadism, Masocism, Bondage are large heavy branches that have been around many years as the tree has grown. They are larger, more noticable. Some are naked and have no growth and show nothing other than their own strength. Off these branches are twigs and stalks that yeald different growths. These can be seen as a fetish... as bondage... as whatever the branch needs to survive and become stronger. Sometimes a fruit is dropped... that fruit goes off to start something beautiful of its own... sometimes it might not survive. But thats the nature of things.

I can understand the concept of the statement... but If it is correct, then I would think that it is more a question of that Sadism cannot exist without some type of D/s relationship... not the other way around.

Peace and Love



MrThorns -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 7:42:30 AM)

As it's my quote that got posted in here, I reckon I should ellaborate.

I hear people say that they have no sadism within their relationships. Really? Okay. So, what do you do within your relationship then? What about bondage? Are you tied up? Helpless? What happens to you when you're tied up?

Are you tickled with feathers? Giggling until you are short of breath and your sides ache? Begging your captor to stop? Maybe wax is your bag. Hot wax dripping onto your body. Not scalding...but enough to make you jump a bit before that comfortable warmth settles in and the skin becomes taut as the wax begins to dry.

How does that hand feel in your hair? A firm tug...a steady pressure that reminds you of your helplessness?

When your bound and helpless and have been played with for hours....your loins are on fire and you find yourself begging for the permission to orgasm...hips bucking, headboard straining, screaming your lungs out, " PLEEEEEASE MASTER MAY A GIRL CUM!?!?" and hearing the calm, firm words telling you.. "Not yet. Don't you dare."

How about discipline? I know that many people are not physically punished. Okay. But how about the words, "You disappoint me." or, "Get out of my sight." ? Ouch.

Humiliation? Being made to wear a chastity belt? Wearing a remote egg vibrator while out shopping and hearing your dominant whisper in your ear, "wow...that's really pretty loud. I think everyone can hear that."

Rough sex? Damn that hurts so gooooooood.

These seem to me to be examples of Sadism. Sure, they are not too extreme, but there's still pleasure being gained at the discomfort of another.

I imagine that a D/s relationship that is entirely without sadism would be much like the relationship between June and Ward Cleaver. Ward disiplined the kids, was the primary means of financial support for the family, and seemed to have the final word on the decisions made in that house. June served Ward faithfully, prepared the food, cleaned the house, took care of the kids, etc. There were clearly defined roles and boundaries, just as there are in many D/s relationships. What's the difference?

The difference is Sadism. As soon as Ward takes June over his knee for an erotic spanking...Sadism. As soon as Ward applies a little dab of Icey Hott to June's clitoris...Sadism. As soon as Ward tells June to hold her orgasm for just a few more minutes...Sadism. Nothing too extreme...but sadistic just the same.

Hopefully you all can see what I'm getting at and that I am not in any way passing judgement on the relationships of others. If you choose to say that there is no sadism in your relationship...ok. It's your relationship. I just think that if people really looked at the things they find to be erotic, they will find that there really is a touch of sadism in it. Look at the things you enjoy within your relationships and ask yourself if there is some level of sadism within. I'd be very interested in hearing about what you find.

~Thorns



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 8:18:45 AM)

Whilst I can understand the concept, I still have to disagree that all D/s relationships contain Sadism.

What, for example, if its the sub who enjoys the spanking, and the Dom does so because she enjoys it and not visa versa? Please explain the sadism in that sense.

What if a Dom enjoys being spanked and orders the sub to do so, not for the sadism but for the sensation of the spank. She does so because its His wish... Is spanking, ultimately Sadism? please explain sadism within that.

Is hair pulling sadism?
or sensation?
Is bondage sadism?
Or release, or sensation, or freedom?

Sadism can exist within a Ds relationship. It can be used as a tool, or a pleasure stimulant, a discipline or a humliation... numerous tools. But in no way does it have to exist within the dynamic for D/s to be.

But my question would be, can sadism exist without D/s? If D/s is about a power dynamic. One Dominant, one submissive in nature... then sadism surely cannot exist without it? Sadism without consent from a second party would be dodgy ground. Whereas, D/s does not need sadism within it to exist.



FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 8:37:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I'm still of the belief that sadism exists in all D/s relationships. It's simply that many people simply don't seem to see it for what it is....but that's another topic. I'm very interested in hearing what others have to say.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fragile Rose
I lifted the quote above from my post on erotic humiliation and embarrassment. I am genuinely curious to hear from other submissives in D/s situations about whether they believe Sadism exists in their relationship.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'm surprised you moved this to ask a submissive and are asking only submissives.


I was genuinely curious about what submissives have to say. I am equally curious about what Dominants have to say, so I will take my cue from you and also ask the Doms. Good idea.



FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 8:46:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns

The difference is Sadism. As soon as Ward takes June over his knee for an erotic spanking...Sadism. As soon as Ward applies a little dab of Icey Hott to June's clitoris...Sadism. As soon as Ward tells June to hold her orgasm for just a few more minutes...Sadism. Nothing too extreme...but sadistic just the same.


Hi, thank you for your in-depth elaboration. Again, I am emphasizing that my own experience is limited. Pain and pleasure are definitely two sides of the same coin. However, based on my reading of a great deal of literature, enjoyment of mild erotic pain does not necessarily mean that someone is a masochist. The submissive who asks for the spanking may or may not enjoy the pain - they may have psychological reasons for wanting to be spanked that have nothing to do with the pain experience.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:03:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Hrm...them's fight'in words. Some of us who are 'whores who beg to be flogged and such," may simply construe those of you who have the audacity to call yourselves 'slaves', state clearly in your profiles that you do painful things, but say you aren't into pain might just call you a posuer.

I wondered if anyone would react to the word, in honesty I was being facetious and I myself am a whore, just not one for pain.

What about not liking pain but doing painful things would make someone a poseur? You don't have to like something to do it, specially in a M/s relationship.

I'm ok with judging, learning to make good judgements is a VERY valuable adult skill and one I wish more people would employ. I might not agree with your judgement, but I certainly support you making it.

I'm curious for those who insist that sadism is always in Ds, what you would do with submissives who are sadists? Or dominants who are masochists? They certainly exist.



mergingdreams -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:04:34 AM)

*giggles* okay now is my turn to be a bit tongue in cheek. All of life is a wee bit sadistic... why is it my cars speedometer goes to 140 yet it flat lines at 100... I mean really if it is there i should be able to test it out.*sadistic nod nod* Why in the first place are cars capable of going up to those speeds when at best we are allowed to do 70 without fear of expensive tickets from men in cars with sirens... or if one is doing 100 revoking our said driving abilities to athorites lol. Just one example of sadism in vanilla life there are many that bemuse, and bewilder me on a daily basis. *winks*
D/s and sadism mmm for me well I happen to enjoy a session and the flogger, paddle , crop and many others. But yes in some ways I think Dom/me all have a wee touch of sadism in them.... D/s is mental in many ways and I affectionately call him Sir Fiesty ... BRAT gets me in trouble though I beleve equally as descriptive... He reminded me it is not BRAT but EVIL lol. I believe he has also said it is called creative and inventive lol.
Punishments or corrections do not need to involve pain but placing a dime upon a wall and having a sub hold it up with her nose bent over about midway thighs spread in 4" heels may not hurt .. or give marks .. it certainly does remind one not to do it again but yes a tad evil or sadistic lol.
I have to say a touch of sadism in ones life tends to keep us all humble..Twinkles and life interesting.
~MD~



FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:10:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
I'm curious for those who insist that sadism is always in Ds, what you would do with submissives who are sadists? Or dominants who are masochists? They certainly exist.


This is a profoundly interesting question. A lot of people connect Sadism with physical pain, but some people enjoy inflicting and receiving mental pain. So, a submissive could certainly inflict pain, especially subtle mental pain, upon her Dom, too, and he might enjoy it. Not my idea of Sunday in the Park, but then...



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:23:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FragileRose


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
I'm curious for those who insist that sadism is always in Ds, what you would do with submissives who are sadists? Or dominants who are masochists? They certainly exist.


This is a profoundly interesting question. A lot of people connect Sadism with physical pain, but some people enjoy inflicting and receiving mental pain. So, a submissive could certainly inflict pain, especially subtle mental pain, upon her Dom, too, and he might enjoy it. Not my idea of Sunday in the Park, but then...


I am a submissive who is a sadist. Mental sadism, IMPO, would result in a physical result, so I don't draw differences between them on that mark. Physical or mental, as results in pleasure.

I know more masocistic Dominants than Sadistic subs, but in this world, we do exist... *S*



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:30:36 AM)

quote:

But yes in some ways I think Dom/me all have a wee touch of sadism in them.... D/s is mental in many ways and I affectionately call him Sir Fiesty ... BRAT gets me in trouble though I beleve equally as descriptive... He reminded me it is not BRAT but EVIL lol.


IMO... some Dominants are natually sadistic... and some use sadism as a tool, but not all are or do. Some Dominants are inherently masocist.

Just a thought from personal experience.

I think the biggest thing here is to say that ALL are. Thats like saying all BDSMers are into Pain or all Dominants under 25 have no experience. Generalisation is a sweeping statement with no foundation to hold it up.



MrThorns -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:36:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

What, for example, if its the sub who enjoys the spanking, and the Dom does so because she enjoys it and not visa versa? Please explain the sadism in that sense.


I guess I would ask why a dominant is doing something that they don't want to do. This digs into another conversation like , Can masochism exist without sadism? Can submission exist without dominance? etc. In the situation you described, who is submitting to who?

quote:


What if a Dom enjoys being spanked and orders the sub to do so, not for the sadism but for the sensation of the spank. She does so because its His wish... Is spanking, ultimately Sadism? please explain sadism within that.


I say yes. A force is being produced that creates discomfort, pain, sensation, etc. If you enjoy creating this sensation, you have delved into the sadistic. If you enjoy the sensation, masochistic.

I mean, my girl is a pain slut. I can beat her ass bloody and she would get on her knees and thank me for it. I am creating a sensation and am enjoying giving her that sensation. She is loving the sensation. Just because we enjoy what we are doing does not make it any less sadistic or masochistic. Now apply that to a lighter form of play. Is it any less sadistic or masochistic to enjoy a light spanking? It may be less intense, which is why I feel many people don't see it for what it is.
quote:


Is hair pulling sadism?
or sensation?
Is bondage sadism?

IMO...yes, although I think it really depends on what you are doing. Bondage, in itself, I don't really feel as being sadistic. But what is being done to you while you are bound? Are you receiving sensations that are driving you absolutely crazy? The sensations may be pleasureable...but still you squirm. Why? What is making you pull against the ropes?

Again, just because we enjoy the sensation, doesn't make it any less sadistic.

quote:


Or release, ... freedom?


What kind of release? What released you? When do you feel the most free?

quote:


Sadism can exist within a Ds relationship. It can be used as a tool, or a pleasure stimulant, a discipline or a humliation... numerous tools. But in no way does it have to exist within the dynamic for D/s to be.


I agree that sadism is a tool, but I disagree in that it doesn't have to exist in a D/s dynamic.

The only argument I can present is that of Communism. In theory, Communism is a perfect system. But in reality, corruption, greed, and human nature make it anything but perfect. Same thing goes for D/s.

On paper, I think you are absolutely correct. The D/s dynamic is completely void of S/M. The submissive lives only to serve and the dominant is always in control. There is no need for discipline, as the submissive wants absolutely nothing but to serve and the dominant , who is always in control, would never allow a submissive to become disobedient, the relationship is based soley on the power exchange. Sex is unneccesary, play is unneccesary. The power exchange is everything.

quote:



But my question would be, can sadism exist without D/s? If D/s is about a power dynamic. One Dominant, one submissive in nature... then sadism surely cannot exist without it? Sadism without consent from a second party would be dodgy ground. Whereas, D/s does not need sadism within it to exist.


I would say no. Consentual S/M requires one person to submit to the will of another. Even if it is the dominant being flogged and the submissive doing the flogging, there is one person allowing the act and another performing the act. Who gives and who receives is irrelevant.

So what about switches? Or two dominants? Or two submissives? Again, same deal. The feelings involved may change. One dominant flogging another dominant may be for instructional purposes, but even so, one dominant is submitting to another, even if it is only for a short time.

This post is getting pretty long winded, so I'll cut it off now. I'm still holding to my beliefs and want to reemphasize that my beliefs are mine alone and are not an attempt to judge the relationships of others nor to categorize everyone into one label or another.

Take care,

~Thorns



perverseangelic -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 9:42:34 AM)

Mr Thorns- thanks for the clarification, and I get what you're saying now.

I agree in part, using your definition of sadims. I guess I see sadism in a fairly black-n-white light--inflicting pain because it brings someone pleasure. That def. doesn't fit my partner. Your def. does

~shrug~

Suffice to say, we're happy :)



MrThorns -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 10:00:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


I think the biggest thing here is to say that ALL are. Thats like saying all BDSMers are into Pain or all Dominants under 25 have no experience. Generalisation is a sweeping statement with no foundation to hold it up


I really do try and refrain from making generalizations. I've bitched about them in the past...and damn...here I am making one. The foundation of which you speak...is the information I am seeking from others. An honest evaluation from everyone here about what exists within their relationships.

~Thorns



mergingdreams -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 10:05:19 AM)

Yes, true generalization can be a problem.. but I believe if we are honest within ourselves we all have sadistic/maso streaks... just as I believe we all have dominant and submissive parts to us... everyone submits to something in life and with the same brush we all are dominant in one way or another in life. We have rules that are set upon by our own beliefs, country, state, parents ect. that we in some way conform to and in such submit too. Just as we all have things we must take charge of in life.

I truly believe everyone at a time or another has had a idea of how to mmm correct a situation or an issue with a person that may not have been shall we say a pleasurable correction.. did we follow through with it lol probably not but the idea was there. I have seen on the boards shall we say some creative suggestions as to what to do with what some call a *player* ect. from both submissives and Dominants and not all sadism is physical.

I have seen children pulling legs off daddy long leggers, and adults rubbing a puppies nose in a household accident. Capturing lightening bugs in a jar can be viewed as sadistic especially from the view point of the lightening bug.

When one accepts punishment yes they are submitting to the punishment .. but in another sense you can view that as a Maso act for you are submitting to something unpleasant and one hopes learning from it. Punishment whether it be a paddle or a speeding ticket is not meant to be fun and pleasurable but a method of one hopes correction.

In doling out punishment it is in the hopes of the person you are punishing will learn from it. In one sense it is yes a service and a kindness. In another yes a tad sadistic since in doing so you are selecting a punishment you know the person will not enjoy as a learning tool.

So in my opinion sadism/maso and submissive and Dominance are merged into all parts of life. Of course the amount of any of them is the choice of the individual, and up to that person to determine what they need, want and desire in their own life. It is not strictly a D/s thing..

My first post was more out of fun due to the fact that I see it as simply part of life. *smiles*



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