RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 10:19:09 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

What, for example, if its the sub who enjoys the spanking, and the Dom does so because she enjoys it and not visa versa? Please explain the sadism in that sense.

I guess I would ask why a dominant is doing something that they don't want to do. This digs into another conversation like , Can masochism exist without sadism? Can submission exist without dominance? etc. In the situation you described, who is submitting to who?


I was thinking ,say of the situation where the Dominant wishes to give their sub a reward. If He gives her the choice, and she wishes to be spanked, and he agrees even though it is not something he desires within their relationship, then He is doing so because its His desire to treat her, to help her grow. It isnt the act, but the outcome. Its still ultimately His decision, but that doesnt make Him Sadistic? The sub cannot recieve unless the Dominant decides. Therefore she submits, not the Dominant. He doesnt have to be sadistic, however to make such a decision.
I personally dont believe that masocism can exist without sadism and visa versa. I believe the same goes for D & s... I don't however beleive that D/s can exist without S/m... but i do believe that S/m cannot exist without some form of D/s or at least T/b...



quote:

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What if a Dom enjoys being spanked and orders the sub to do so, not for the sadism but for the sensation of the spank. She does so because its His wish... Is spanking, ultimately Sadism? please explain sadism within that.

I say yes. A force is being produced that creates discomfort, pain, sensation, etc. If you enjoy creating this sensation, you have delved into the sadistic. If you enjoy the sensation, masochistic.

I mean, my girl is a pain slut. I can beat her ass bloody and she would get on her knees and thank me for it. I am creating a sensation and am enjoying giving her that sensation. She is loving the sensation. Just because we enjoy what we are doing does not make it any less sadistic or masochistic. Now apply that to a lighter form of play. Is it any less sadistic or masochistic to enjoy a light spanking? It may be less intense, which is why I feel many people don't see it for what it is.



Then the Dominant in this scenario is delving into masocism, granted. But the sub is only doing what the Dominant has desired... doesnt make her Sadist, just obeying Him. Where is the sadism in this example? The sadism can be a tool, a part of, but in this instance, it isnt being enjoyed by the sub... the goal for the sub is to obey, pure and simple.(IMO)

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IMO...yes, although I think it really depends on what you are doing. Bondage, in itself, I don't really feel as being sadistic. But what is being done to you while you are bound? Are you receiving sensations that are driving you absolutely crazy? The sensations may be pleasureable...but still you squirm. Why? What is making you pull against the ropes?


If bondage in itself is not sadistic, then by the same token, nor is D/s. Sometimes, I am bound because it is used in a Sm context... I indeed, squirm, writhe, feel sensations. By the same token, I love bondage primarily because when I am bound, I can be free to be myself... I slip into a mindset that is way beyond anything I could describe in words. And most importantly, I use bonage because Master decided.

Hair pulling doesnt have to be sadistic... some people purely have a hair fetish.


quote:

Again, just because we enjoy the sensation, doesn't make it any less sadistic.


I agree... but just because we enjoy a sensation, doesn't make is necessarily sadistic in any way.

My thoughts are my thoughts and work for me within my dynamic, and I would never think that it works for everyone, or that its totally right. I found this really interesting, and I am grateful you discussed this with Angel. I still hold firm to my belief and I really enjoy discussions like this. Others can read and make their own minds up.



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 10:32:45 AM)

Greetings mergingdreams, welcome to the forums and to collarme.... ! Your input is gratefully read by many here, I am sure. All thoughts and perspectives are relevant and informative! Truely, I did take your post as fun.[:)]
Whilst I do agree that Sm exists, no matter how minutly in Life, I just don't believe it is essential.

I have never gained pleasure or self gratification from anothers pain, unless its consensual on their part. I don't get a feeling or glow, if someone says I was right.

I am never 'right'. I just know that my thoughts are my thoughts and i adhere to them.

If i discipline my child by not allowing t.v, then its not because i am gaining pleasure or a sadistic kick from the discipline, but because i hope they will learn. There is no sadism in that.

Sadism that is inappropriate and non consensual IMO isnt sadism, but cruelty.



MrThorns -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 11:22:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I was thinking ,say of the situation where the Dominant wishes to give their sub a reward. If He gives her the choice, and she wishes to be spanked, and he agrees even though it is not something he desires within their relationship, then He is doing so because its His desire to treat her, to help her grow. It isnt the act, but the outcome. Its still ultimately His decision, but that doesnt make Him Sadistic? The sub cannot recieve unless the Dominant decides. Therefore she submits, not the Dominant. He doesnt have to be sadistic, however to make such a decision.


Interesting scenario, and with no disrespect intended towards you, how realistic is this? A masochistic submissive serving someone void of sadistic tendencies? Wouldn't a masochist seek a sadist? But regardless, I'll answer within the scenario provided.

Sadism is still present. The dominant is still taking some degree of pleasure in the act, yes? Seeing his submissive grow? Seeing her receive a reward for accomplishing her duties? The tool he is using still involves sadism. The act is sadistic, even if he does not consider himself to be a sadist. So then sadism still exists, albeit maybe not on a daily basis.

quote:


I personally dont believe that masocism can exist without sadism and visa versa. I believe the same goes for D & s... I don't however beleive that D/s can exist without S/m... but i do believe that S/m cannot exist without some form of D/s or at least T/b...


I also agree that one can exist witout the other. There are Dominants without submissives and visa versa. Same goes with Sadists and masochists. The do exist alone, but in within relationships, if we are referring to a D/s relationship, there has to be at least one of each, yes? I would have a hard time identifying my relationship as a D/s relationship if no one was submitting to me.

I think S/M B/D M/s D/s etc etc ad nauseum are all very closely tied together. B/D requires D/s, S/M requires D/s M/s requires D/s T/b requires D/s(im not talking TPE, but as referred to earlier, someone needs to lead and another to follow, even if there's no great D/s "bonding" going on.) So why doesn't B/D require S/M? or D/s require S/M? I just see it as a sybiotic relationship. Sometimes one is more noticeable than the other, but they still seem (to me anyway) to coexist.

quote:

Then the Dominant in this scenario is delving into masocism, granted. But the sub is only doing what the Dominant has desired... doesnt make her Sadist, just obeying Him. Where is the sadism in this example? The sadism can be a tool, a part of, but in this instance, it isnt being enjoyed by the sub... the goal for the sub is to obey, pure and simple.

True, but is the act any less sadistic? The person performing the act may not be a sadist, but sadism is still present in this scenario. The goal of a dominant may be to teach a slave how to kneel properly. When she is not in the correct position, perhaps he uses a cane across the backs of her thighs, then positions her how he wants her. He isn't taking pleasure in caning her and she takes no pleasure in being caned. Does this make the act less sadistic?

quote:


If bondage in itself is not sadistic, then by the same token, nor is D/s. Sometimes, I am bound because it is used in a Sm context... I indeed, squirm, writhe, feel sensations. By the same token, I love bondage primarily because when I am bound, I can be free to be myself... I slip into a mindset that is way beyond anything I could describe in words. And most importantly, I use bonage because Master decided.


I would be interested in hearing your Master's input on how he feels to see you bound. Does he take pleasure in seeing you bound? Or is it more of a sadistic "feeling" that comes from it?

quote:


Hair pulling doesnt have to be sadistic... some people purely have a hair fetish.

Very true.



quote:

I still hold firm to my belief and I really enjoy discussions like this. Others can read and make their own minds up.

I'm really enjoying this discussion (If you couldn't tell.) I appreciate the input from those that have posted and I am not trying to tell people that they are "wrong" for feeling the way they do. I think of it as the whole Copernicus (or was it Galileo?) scenario where he pointed out that the earth revolved around the sun and was imprisoned for it. I see a lot of things that are posted in various places online (And offline as well) regarding BDSM. A lot of people automatically assume that these pieces of information are hard fact. (SSC for example, definitions of Master, slave, switch, etc.) I like to challenge some of these ideas from time to time... I'm looking forward to hearing others' thoughts about this.

~Thorns



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 1:06:41 PM)

quote:

Sadism is still present. The dominant is still taking some degree of pleasure in the act, yes? Seeing his submissive grow? Seeing her receive a reward for accomplishing her duties? The tool he is using still involves sadism. The act is sadistic, even if he does not consider himself to be a sadist. So then sadism still exists, albeit maybe not on a daily basis.


Not necessarily. The dominant (in this scenario) took pleasure, not from the act, but from the growth. I guess it really comes down to as to whether one sees sadism in growth or in the action. Sadism is involved, but it was still a tool. But the act itself doesnt have to be. Its an act of love and of allowing the sub a moment of reward. I have seen Dominants serve their girl, because He knows she would be awestruck by it. Or even as a training. Maybe the Dom, in using the spanking as a 'treat', is in fact, teaching a sub how to 'spank' in His way, through her experience so she can satisfy His masocistic need? Is it realistic? Yes.( And no disrespects taken[:)])

quote:

True, but is the act any less sadistic? The person performing the act may not be a sadist, but sadism is still present in this scenario. The goal of a dominant may be to teach a slave how to kneel properly. When she is not in the correct position, perhaps he uses a cane across the backs of her thighs, then positions her how he wants her. He isn't taking pleasure in caning her and she takes no pleasure in being caned. Does this make the act less sadistic?


No it doesn't... but it also depends on ones interpretation of sadism? There are definitions, yet there are semantics. One persons sub is anothers slave... so I keep reading...*s*

quote:

I would be interested in hearing your Master's input on how he feels to see you bound. Does he take pleasure in seeing you bound? Or is it more of a sadistic "feeling" that comes from it?


Master, my husband, states (Angels bolding the type He spoke)"He Doesn't have a profile, so will get my love to type it here. If I make a statement, its not meant to be offensive to anyone, so you'll have to know Im not used to this forum. When she is bound, I don't feel sadistic towards her. I feel power, but not sadistic. I know that shes giving to me everything. I know I am freeing her. Yes, at times I let us experiment using Sm, but thats for self discovery purposes. If I have her bound without Sm, I do so because I want her to be free of pain, free in herself and allowing her to be without restraint whilst in restraint. When shes in that kind of headspace, she becomes more responsive and more herself than she can be otherwise. And knowing I am teaching her that is pleasing to me. Like I've read from this talking, I know that her thoughts are mine. I don't want to cause her pain shes not going to like or grow from, coz that would be a pointless exercise and wouldn't bare any fruit in the long run. If I want to feel her pain, I will. On my terms and when shes ready. Only I know that and my hunni understands that. But its not something I want constantly and it doesnt rule my life. The only person or feeling or thing in command is me."

Thanks for this discussion Thorns... it's really making Angel think and it's great to discuss, in a mature manner. Master is pleased that Angels learning through this.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 1:13:14 PM)

quote:

A masochistic submissive serving someone void of sadistic tendencies? Wouldn't a masochist seek a sadist?


Well wouldn't that be the ultimate in masochism? <tongue in cheek>

I understand what it is that you are saying Thorns. I tend to agree with you that the D/s dynamic inherently has a certain degree of Sadomasochism in it and it doesn't necessarily make the participants sadomasochists. It's like I can have grouchy moments but I'm not a grouch. Not the strongest argument I know but I'm trying to illustrate that you can have a tint of s&m without it being s&m.

I wouldn't make a blanket statement about all D/s being tinted with S&M because given what I know about how dynamics are a very individual thing, it is very likely that a D/s dynamic with no S&M exists. I just can't picture how it would.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
A force is being produced that creates discomfort, pain, sensation, etc. If you enjoy creating this sensation, you have delved into the sadistic. If you enjoy the sensation, masochistic.


Just a clarification on this point Thorns. There is a paraphilia called algolagnia which is defined as sexual pleasure from giving or receiving pain without any elements of Domination, submission or humiliation. I'm seeing a new thread...

- LA




FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 1:25:50 PM)

Gosh, MrThorns, your quote stirred up a lot of feelings and reactions. Thanks for providing the chance for a great forum.

Strictly speaking (LOL), isn't a Sadist someone that experiences pleasure inflicting pain on someone without concern about the pain the person is experiencing? Before everyone jumps down my throat, I am NOT saying that the Sadist has no concern for his partner, not am I saying that the Sadist will keep going even if told that the pain is unbearable. I am sure that the level of personal concern varies from person to person, couple to couple. I am certain that many/some/most (I am covering all my bases here) Sadists take great care of and cherish his/her Pet(s). The Masochist enjoys hitting the limits of pain and often experiences a catharsis or great release from it.

I believe that there is a different dynamic going on in the D/s relationship. While the Dom may give the spanking, he/she may also be feeling empathic about the pain being experienced. Even if he enjoys the experience, it may not be related to the pain being inflicted. While the submissive may accept the spanking, he/she may not really enjoy the pain one whit, or may regard the pain as a necessary prelude to erotic excitement.

Again, I am probing. I have no answers, only questions.



FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 1:34:13 PM)

Okay, this sparks another comment. My Master has described placing me in ropes a number of times. I wish he would, but that will have to wait until we get together in person. If it doesn't happen soon, I am going to start volunteering and find someone that will!

When I ask him why he wants to do such a thing, he answers that he can possess me. What is he going to do with me, I want to know? His answer is that possession is a very tender emotion in his view. He will cherish me. If he possesses something, he will cherish it. He will take me new places. For a moment, he imagines he will tame me, until I remind him that I am already tamed, so there is not much work to do. Yes, he says. I rather like you the way you are. I can hear nothing Sadistic about this desire of his to place me in bondage. He dreams of nothing more than holding me close in one place for a few hours.




mergingdreams -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 1:37:18 PM)

Angel .. true enough SM is not necessary and no I do not either get a thrill from anothers pain or suffering. Smiles .. though to me some pain is a release and a freedom in receiving it. Of course, in punishing anyone the hope is the lesson learned, but in passing out punishment you also have to know what would be effective in doing so... You have to know what you take away or give for punishment will promote a change of behavior and give you the desired effect. While you do not see that as sadistic .. betting at the moment your child may think otherwise *twinkles*. It is a matter of perspective I think. But I agree punishment is fun on neither side ... not for the one being punished nor the one doling it out.

I will admit I once at 14 held a whip in my hand as I took it from a man beating a horse for not winning a class at a horse show. As i grabbed the horse I threatened the man with the fact if was not a waste of my time i would cheefully have beatten him with it. I told him and meant it that however in doing so he would learn nothing so I was taking the horse and walked away with the horse and the whip. Took the horse to the animal rescue tent and sadly shook my head at the more than 40 adults that had stood there watching and done nothing. The whip still hangs unused in my barn today as a reminder of that day and the emotions I felt while holding it.

I do not believe in violence, and could not raise my hand to inflict the same. I will say in that moment at 14 I learned what the desire to do so was and also the meaning of control of anger. So do i have a sadistic streak sure do... can I control it sure can. *smiles* I believe like have said before it is there in us both sides of a coin. Just a matter of choice and how we allow it into our lives.



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 3:04:10 PM)

quote:

You have to know what you take away or give for punishment will promote a change of behavior and give you the desired effect. While you do not see that as sadistic .. betting at the moment your child may think otherwise *twinkles*.


OK Mods... I might be risking having this moved, which I fully respect and understand... or even edited for content...but I must respond to this, as I feel really strongly.

Sadism... offically means The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty. There should be NO cruelty to a punishment given to a child and feel very strongly that should not even be mentioned. Whilst I am trying to understand your point, merging, I cannot agree. I can add my childs voice if You really want (I asked their viewpoint) and if the Mods allowed, because they sure as hell know that its about learning and not cruelty. Whilst I am sure you may not have wished to infere such, it may be wise to discover what words actually mean, before placing them into such a context.

Sorry to be so blunt and forward, but Master is very protective of His family, and this crossed His line.



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 3:10:41 PM)

Sometimes, when in Bondage, He places me there to experiment with a sadistic lean. This is a learning experience for both myself and Him, He says.

Mostly though, He does so because He desires it because He loves the sight, smells and sound. He does it to get me into a place thats 'home'. Freedom in chains is a great description. In bondage, I have no need to be anything other than me. I don't have to think about anything but I am allowed to focus on Him and His desires. Even typing this, brings amazing thoughts into my head. All the time, He is teaching me... and I am learning whilst bound only to Him. And because I am free and myself and in that headspace, i am able to learn with clear thinking. Oh rose, its amazing! He wants me to be free when in His Control. How much better can it get?



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 3:17:01 PM)

quote:

But I agree punishment is fun on neither side ... not for the one being punished nor the one doling it out.


Yikes, I am disagreeing again. It's not personal I can assure you merge!...lol... I do think that punishment for some people can be highly pleasurable, if that is Your 'kink'. Some people thrive on punishment... they can learn and they cannot live without it. Punishment, having privilages witheld in a BDSM context, humiliation etc for some is an important part of who and what they are.

Love and Peace



FragileRose -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/12/2005 3:43:58 PM)

quote:

Original: Darkangel

Oh rose, its amazing! He wants me to be free when in His Control. How much better can it get?


Got ropes, anyone? I'm waiting for my Cowboy.



SubbieHubbie -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/14/2005 3:24:50 PM)

Hmmm... while, as an immigrant to the good ol' US of A, I have never seen the program you refer to, I would ask in what way it ISN'T a dom/sub relationship. Given what you describe (and again, I am only going by my reading of your words, not the program itself), He is her master. She obeys him, submits to his will, accepts his preferences over her own, keeps herself in check, serves him however he needs, etc. If his willpower overrides (dominates) hers in this way, how is this relationship not D/s? It may be nicey-nice, sweet-as-apple-pie and make everyone feel good - all that means is its a very functional relationship. It doesn't stop it being D/s.

I'd suggest D/s occurs in MANY forms - often, perhaps almost always, with sadomassochistic elements. However, following the dictionary definitions of submission (basically yielding) and dominant (basically most powerful, overpowering) any relationship in which there is a significant power dynamic is D/s in a way. I would suggest that the identifying factor of a D/s relationship is power differential, not the presence of and use of pain-infliction. I do agree, as I say, that pain of one form or another is present in almost all D/s relationships however.



othiym -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/14/2005 8:41:01 PM)

well, this may not be PC..but I think that sadism is inherant in D/s relationships..if a sub has ever done anything simply to adhere to the will of their Dominant (and that is the point, is it not?), then it is sadistic...the fact that they enjoy their submission is negligable..



darkinshadows -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/15/2005 1:54:34 AM)

If this was the case, then sadism and masochism exists and the world spins around it?

Sadism is defined as a sexual response to anothers pain. If I 'submit' or 'serve' it doesn't always result in a sexual response nor does it result in pain.

There are many words that people have adopted into this society which have no baring on their original meaning. Like Dominant or submissive. These are words which within the community are used as descriptions of a person, when in reality, they are descriptions of a behaviour. There is no real problem using such words to convert. However, Sadism is a defined characteristic. The only change that could be possible is that not all Sadism is the same sexual response to anothers pain. But its definition does not alter. At least, not yet... lol



SubbieHubbie -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/15/2005 4:24:39 AM)

Unless the community has started to define "sadism" in ways that do not involve pain, cruelty and emotional abuse, how can it be determined that following the will of another simply in order to follow that will is sadistic. Actually, strictly speaking, even if we suppose that a power differential meets the criteria for sadomassochism then following the will of another would be the massochistic end (having it willingly inflicted on you).

From this definition, every parent (barring the most laissez-faire of parenting methods) is a sadist. After all, they give orders that, following a possible explanation, are expected to be followed. I don't think this would count as a sadistic conduct - though the parent is the dominant one in the parent-child relationship (generally speaking, with the possible exception of some unruly children).

I'll also ask you a question - given what you said, what is the difference between sadism/domination and massochism/submissiveness? If we define any act of control as ultimately sadistic, then isn't calling the community BDSM rather than BSM redundant? I hope I don't come across as offensive, and apologize if I do - but I simply disagree.



MrThorns -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/15/2005 6:29:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SubbieHubbie

Unless the community has started to define "sadism" in ways that do not involve pain, cruelty and emotional abuse, how can it be determined that following the will of another simply in order to follow that will is sadistic. Actually, strictly speaking, even if we suppose that a power differential meets the criteria for sadomassochism then following the will of another would be the massochistic end (having it willingly inflicted on you).


I believe that the community has redefined what more conventional dictionaries define as sadism. First off, we are not in the business of abuse in any form. We (sadists) are, however, in the business of utilizing physical, emotional, or physical stimuli in order to get a reaction from our partners. That reaction may be a feeling of freedom, powerlessness, fear, joy, pain, rapture, dispair...or a whole colorful realm of reactions that are far too many to mention.

quote:


From this definition, every parent (barring the most laissez-faire of parenting methods) is a sadist. After all, they give orders that, following a possible explanation, are expected to be followed. I don't think this would count as a sadistic conduct - though the parent is the dominant one in the parent-child relationship (generally speaking, with the possible exception of some unruly children).


Speaking as a parent, I will say that I have never found anything fun about having to discipline my child. There is no joy in it, no pleasure to be found whatsoever.

I feel the same way about my slave. I take no joy in disciplining her. We have rules and I expect those rules to be followed. She knows that to violate those rules runs the risk of punishment. The punishment of my slave may be sadistic, but there isn't anything pleasureable about it for either of us. So why do it?

Answer: "Rulez iz rulez."

quote:



I'll also ask you a question - given what you said, what is the difference between sadism/domination and massochism/submissiveness? If we define any act of control as ultimately sadistic, then isn't calling the community BDSM rather than BSM redundant? I hope I don't come across as offensive, and apologize if I do - but I simply disagree.


I don't see having control or giving up control as being inherently sadistic or masochistic, but I do see that the things we do with that control as being sadistic...even if it doesn't appear to be by other definitions of sadism.

~Thorns





SubbieHubbie -> RE: Sadism in D/s? Always the case? (3/15/2005 8:20:41 PM)

Hmmm... First, I want to make an apology. I realize that my use of the word "abuse" in regards to sadism could have been offensive. This is not sadism within the bdsm community, it is clinically diagnosable sadism. In my attempt to involve a full definition (including that I understand from my limited involvement with the bdsm community as well as that of the medical model of treatment and DSM-IV-TR) I included something that should have been ommitted. For that I fully apologize.

Now, I wish to address confusion I have with regard to what you said MrThorns. Specifically the following things occur to me:

You begin by stating that sadists are "in the business of utilizing physical, emotional, or physical stimuli in order to get a reaction from our partners. That reaction may be a feeling of freedom, powerlessness, fear, joy, pain, rapture, dispair...or a whole colorful realm of reactions that are far too many to mention." I'm not sure if this is the definition of sadism you are suggesting (or even the one used within the community, as I say my experience is limited), but if so then buying a gift for someone or paying them a compliment would be sadism. They are physical/emotional stimuli intended to obtain a reaction of joy and/or freedom (some compliments improve self-esteem for instance). Indeed, if this is the definition of sadism then anyone who does anything that causes any reaction in another person would be a sadist. This seems to be a good definition of interpersonal communication skills, but I am guessing there is something more to the definition of sadism than that.

You then refer to my comment regarding the power relationship between parent and child, and my question as to whether this counted as sadism. My thinking here, which I'm guessing was wrong, was that you were using sadism to define a power-differential in a relationship. I am not sure what I said that made you think I was talking about a parent disciplining a child - not all of the power differential is based on actual discipline. I'm also a little unsure what I said that made it sound like I though parents (or sadists) enjoyed necessary punishment/correction. If I gave that impression then again, you have my unreserved apology for a poor communication. Finally, in this area, I'm now wondering if you are saying that the sadistic act is the act of punishment from a M to an s. If so, what of a relationship where the s never needs punishment? What when the s simply subjugates their will and preference to their M? If there is no punishment, but simply a yielding of control, is this still sadistic and is this still submissive? My own perception is that it is not sadistic, but it is submissive. This is my perception, please feel free to correct me.

With regard to your final statement, that it is what is done with control that makes it sadistic, I'm confused. What that is done with control makes it sadistic? Your initial statement seems to indicate anything done with control is sadism (and used control in a loose way as the use of any stimulus), which makes sadism difficult to differentiate from even powerful vanilla manipulations such as the compliment or gift. Your later statement makes me wonder if you are referring specifically to the use of punishment/correction (something I would agree is sadistic and not necessarily either unpleasant, unwanted or physically painful), however this may not be necessary in all D/s relationships (I have read the words of submissives who state they have never needed to be punished).

Again, I hope I'm not offending you. If I am, let me know, and I will apologize and yield the floor. On the other hand, if you're willing to help me understand what it is you are saying, what defines sadism and differentiates it from non-sadistic forms of manipulation (I doubt many would think of giving a box of chocolates as sadistic, but it is a physical and emotional stimulus aimed at eliciting joy), then I would be grateful.



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