Difference between submissive and bottom (Full Version)

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subgreg -> Difference between submissive and bottom (3/11/2005 6:01:59 PM)

The other day, Ma'am and I were having a conversation that got me thinking about the nature of D/s relationships. She had asked me what made me her submissive. To be honest, I did not know what to say. Don't get me wrong, I most definitely know my feelings for her, I had just never thought about it in those terms. I love Ma'am, repect her, find her incredibly sexy, and feel she has a great mind and is a very strong person. I care for her and want to makeher life as pleasing and enjoyable and safe as possible. But none of these feelings are considered exclusivly submissive.

We have a D/s relationship which is a power exchange relationship in which Ma'am is the ultimate authority. I have my own opinions and am encouraged to contribute my thoughts and feelings on all topics, but the ultimate decision making lies with Ma'am, should she choose to exercise it. Now this may not seem very Lifestyle to you. You may think it sounds more like a traditional marriage, only with the roles reversed. And I would agree with you. I feel that all relationships are D/s relationships to varying degrees. Those in the Lifestyle are merely those that are conscious of it. Many people also see D/s and BDSM as the same thing, or D/s as being part of BDSM. This I would disagree with. The two share practicioners, but are not mutually inclusive. You could be in a D/s realationship without ever having picked up a paddle, and you can play every weekend without being in a D/s relationship.

Now this got me thinking about what qualifies a person as a submissive. When i first started in the scene, I thought that all those that played, whether it be bent over a horse, or serving in a domestic capacity were submissives. After a little while, I came to understand that there were also such a thing as bottoms. From what I understood, bottoms were those that participated in scenes, or served, because they enjoyed it, not for the pleasure of the top. I thought that this was a shallow way to be, and considered myself a true submissive because I wanted to please the person I was with.

This all changed when my relationship with Ma'am began. Prior to her, I felt that anytime I scened with someone or served them I was submitting to them. Now with Ma'am, I truly know what it means to submit. I am completely hers and we share a strong bond of love. The bond does not need to be of love per say, but I feel that to truly submit to someone you have to completely give yourself over to them, not just for an hour, but 24/7, for the rest of your life. This does not mean you are in their presence 24/7, just that you are their's in mind 24/7.

So in hindsight, while I felt I was A submissive, I was just being submissive. I was a bottom. This has changed my feelings on bottoms. While I still feel there are those that are selfish, interested only in their own pleasure, I no longer paint all bottoms with the same broad strokes. I realize that being a bottom is not an inferior thing, it it just being submissive without that critical bond. Someare looking for it, and some are not.



BeachMystress -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/11/2005 6:44:25 PM)


I love that you're considering, learning and growing. I still want an answer to why you are submissive to me. :-)



onceburned -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/11/2005 6:58:39 PM)

quote:

I realize that being a bottom is not an inferior thing, it it just being submissive without that critical bond.


Yes, I think that pretty well describes my notion of the difference between a bottom and a submissive. I am a novice, and woefully lacking in experience. In particular, I have never been in a D/s (Domme/submissive) relationship - I have merely scened or played the role of submissive with a friend of mine. She was a wonderfully wise, talented and loving person... but we were just friends and didn't want to change that.

To be a bottom seems to be a part time thing. As you mentioned, a submissive has a 24/7 relationship with their Dom/me - it may not be physical but the emotional connection is there. They have surrendered a portion of themselves, of their independence, of their future goals. Well, or so I have heard. [sm=tongue.gif]



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/11/2005 8:34:10 PM)

To me a bottom is someone who engages in scenes for their own direct pleasure by being the receiver/passive person and delegates authority within the scene to the other "top."

A submissive is someone who is oriented in relationships to give authority on day to day life to another "dominant" who wields that authority, but retains final veto.

A person can be both a bottom and a sub, or a top and bottom or bottom and slave...any combination. They aren't exclusive.



RiotGirl -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/11/2005 11:52:51 PM)

Access denied. Not allowed to have personal information to throw in my face at a later time.




darkinshadows -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 5:07:28 AM)

I am whatever He Desires. I am whatever He decides. I am what He nurtures, what He trains, What He believes in. I am what He trusts. I am what He loves. What He respects. I gave myself to Him. I continually give. I have no choice. What makes me submissive to my Friend,Lover, Master, Husband (and Boss of me?[:D])

He does.



ScooterTrash -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 5:16:08 AM)

I have to agree totally with Emerald;
quote:

To me a bottom is someone who engages in scenes for their own direct pleasure by being the receiver/passive person and delegates authority within the scene to the other "top."

The difference, in my opinion, would be that the submissive or slave does actually engage in a power exchange while the bottom is more "allowing" themselves to be put into a similar situation for a temporary time period. Good question though.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 5:29:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

I have to agree totally with Emerald;
quote:

To me a bottom is someone who engages in scenes for their own direct pleasure by being the receiver/passive person and delegates authority within the scene to the other "top."

The difference, in my opinion, would be that the submissive or slave does actually engage in a power exchange while the bottom is more "allowing" themselves to be put into a similar situation for a temporary time period. Good question though.


Emerald's definition gets my vote too. I am not one bit submissive but in order to get my masochistic desires met now and then, I need to seduce a Top into hurting me and be a bottom for a bit. I do give up a certain amount of control but I do retain a great deal of it as well.

- LA



MadameBette -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 7:27:00 AM)

Riotgirl,
I think you were the closest to the answer.
The difference between bottoming and submission is the degree of power exchange.

When a person bottoms, there is a limited power exchange for the period of time that the scene lasts. Both parties agree to a specific set of activities. It can be so ‘casual’ that they don’t even know each at all, such as when you play with someone you just met at a club.

The type of bottom that I think subgreg was referring to, would be a ‘do-me bottom’. This person is only interested in play that appeals to him/her. They don’t care if the top likes it or gets any enjoyment out of it, as long as their needs are met.
There are also ‘do-me’ subs who will ‘submit’ but only if ‘made’ to do what they like to do. They are resistant to anything else the Dom/me suggests. Of course, this isn’t really submission at all.

Submission is a state of mind.
The submissive freely gives over control to the Dominant.
Wants to care for him/her and meet that person’s needs without thought of whether theirs will be met.
You don’t have to ‘love’ the Dom/me but you do have to want to surrender yourself to them and accept whatever it is he/she requires of you without reservation. (I’m talking within the framework of any limits that were agreed to before entering into the D/s relationship before anybody gets a hair up the butt.)

~ Bette



nella -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 7:38:37 AM)

i fell that i fal between chairs here. i would like to submit 24/7 and give autority to my Dom, yet i am slefish, who do i do this for? Him? no for me. Becouse i like it. Do i live just to make another person happy? no, i live to make me happy, if i can make somone else happy in the prosess, that is a plus. But am i all aboute kinky sex? no i am interested in the dynamics of a D/s relationship, but i am interested in that for me. Would i be happy washing somones house and waiting on them always, no, would i be happy in a old style marriage like thing whit just a bit more whips and such, yes. Do this make me a bad submissive, no i do not think so.



mergingdreams -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 8:14:56 AM)

I do not look at being submissive as something you only are if you are in a rt relationship. I am now yes, training with a Dom rt but that did not mean that I was not submissive when not. The need, the want, the desire and the mind set are there if one is submissive. I believe submissive is who you are a part of you....how you express that submissiveness is different for all and for everyone I believe is as different as they are. Bottoms I agree can be anyone and I see that term more in sense of scene. The person may or may not be submissive but in need of a session. A slave is submissive but in that case i believe a slave is only a slave when they are owned. Otherwise they are submissives with slave tendencies. This is simply my views of the differences and as with people views are as individual as thumb prints. *smiles*
~MD~



MadameBette -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 8:34:55 AM)

I don’t think you are a ‘bad’ submissive at all.

I was just giving a bare bones definition of submission, as I understand it. There’s not only a lot more to it, it is redefined in each relationship.
There is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way.

quote:

Do i live just to make another person happy? no, i live to make me happy, if i can make somone else happy in the prosess, that is a plus.


It sounds like you have a good attitude.

If you (in general) are not comfortable within yourself and/or don’t have a healthy attitude towards life, a satisfying relationship, let alone a D/s one becomes difficult to maintain.

IMO Submission needs to be both positive and active.

(I think we just did this particular song and dance in the thread about ‘passive submissives’. So, I'm not going to start it up again.)


~ Bette



Stickler -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 9:44:16 AM)

Wow, a very interesting conversation that mirrors one I had at a recent leather event. For me, I think it is very handy to have a different definition for bottom vs. submissive (even though they are often interchanged). I prefer the gay leather definitions myself.

Top and bottom are exclusively used to describe physical action.
Top - The inserter. The doer. The tier.
Bottom - The insertee. The receiver. The person tied up.

Dominant and submissive are used to describe power exchange.
Dominant - The person accepting power over a situation.
Submissive - The person giving up power over a situation.

Master and slave are tougher; while they always define service, the can also speak to spiritual journeys. These terms also indicate a property relationship and all that implies.
Master - The person who is served. The person guiding the spiritual journey of the relationship.
Slave - The person providing service. The person opening their spirit to guidance.

Notice that none of these definitions speak to pleasure. For that, other words can be used.
Masochist - One who receives pleasure from pain. One can be a dominant masochist bottom, directing a submissive to provide pain in a certain way.
Sadist - One who receives pleasure from the infliction of pain. One can be a submissive sadist, but I can't think of a situation where one can be a sadistic bottom (well, maybe some SAM's [;)] ).
Sensualist - One who receives pleaser from the stimulation of the senses, not necesarally to the point of pain (usually not).

Anyway, those are just my preferences. The real problem is that there are so many different assumptions about the terms top and bottom that I find it's a good idea to establish my usage in any conversation just to avoid confusion.



slavedesires -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 10:09:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I am whatever He Desires. I am whatever He decides. I am what He nurtures, what He trains, What He believes in. I am what He trusts. I am what He loves. What He respects. I gave myself to Him. I continually give. I have no choice. What makes me submissive to my Friend,Lover, Master, Husband (and Boss of me?[:D])

He does.



i sometimes hate that i am so emotional, but its accepted...
and this made me all weepy.
dark~angel i so totally agree with this.
you do have a wonderful way of saying what is inside of me.

greg... would this be your answer as well to BeachMystress?
my renderings on submissive vs bottom is the same as yours.

i do know in my heart, mind and body that i serve Master first and foremost when i bottom for others. i give to serve others, yes, tis who i am, but knowing it is Master who i ultimately serve, it makes the service worthy to Him, for it is never about me.

shy



BeachMystress -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 10:39:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavedesires

greg... would this be your answer as well to BeachMystress?



*grins* It better not be his answer. I expect his answer to take him a couple of months of thought and to come from deep inside of him. This is part of his growth as a sub. He needs to figure out not only why he wishes to be a submissive, but also why he wishes to be submissive to ME personally. My actual question to him (since he pointed out that the way I worded it on here was not the question I originally asked him) was "Why are you my submissive?" To me they mean the same thing, but he pointed out that semantics count.

He is very new in his submissive journey and has only been active in real time since August 2004 when he joined the local chapter of Club FEm. (Before that, he had submissive fantasies and one or two near brushes with BDSM.) Because of his looks, body and personality, he has way more experience than most 7 month subs have. He got played at just about every party and was fairly popular with the Domme. Before he met me four months ago, it was a whirlwind of experiences without considering the whys and wherefores of it. He and I have been working on building the foundations of our relationship. I will be collaring him in a couple of months and expect ours to be a lifepairing. Now that we have the relationship basics set, it is time for him to start his journey into the WHY. I feel that is the first and most important thing a submissive figures out and is essential to his personal growth. I'm glad to see the feedback he is getting. It will give him some more to think about.



darkinshadows -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 11:13:49 AM)

slavedesires-

Thank You for your kind words. hugz for you and a tissue for your tears![:)]

M'Lady Beach-

What I spoke, was not meant for anyone to take for themself, but to see an example of how i feel. My words were mine, and not meant for anyone but the One who owns me.

His words, feelings, not anothers.

I think I should have been more plain.

subgreg-

A bottom is the to be grounded, an underpiece, the supporting base, the deepest, to be the foundation.
When a bottom, the only way is up... and to come up, the Top/Dominant will bring you there!

In semantics, a Submissive does not exist. Submission is a state of mind. One can submit, one can be submissive, one can behave submissively. But one cannot be submissive if it is not the Dominants will.

IMO, one can be a bottom, but one cannot be a submissive, a state of submission is achievable only when a Dominant desires, choses and allows.

*edit for typo



BeachMystress -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 11:39:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


M'Lady Beach-

What I spoke, was not meant for anyone to take for themself, but to see an example of how i feel. My words were mine, and not meant for anyone but the One who owns me.



Don't worry, :-) I'm one who understands opinions and the whole YMMV thing. It is good for greg to get lots of different opinions and you always have good contributions. I was explaining a bit more of the situation to shy, who I've been talking with in another thread.



shay -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 2:59:17 PM)

This is a most interesting topic, one that I was directed to because of my individual view on the difference between the labels.

I can bottom with the best of them I guess. I tend to be a bit of a pain slut if my mind is in the right place. But I am not in a "submissive mind" when it comes to bottoming, I am in a "masochistic state of mind". I eagerly look forward to the pain that is given me by the Top who holds the toys. But I still hold the key to the scene in my hand: the use of safe words.

I can be a bottom. I can't be a submissive to everyone who claims to be a dominant. I sure can't be a slave. I want to retain that control. I want to know I have a say in what goes on. Is it dangerous? It can be. After all once the shackles go on, the Top then has the most control.

Now the depth of a scene is often determined by how submissive I may feel to the Top in charge. Otherwise I come out to be a sam. And often I let that sam out just to let the Top KNOW I still have some control over the situation. A bad thing? Maybe. Maybe not.

Submissive bottom? Oh yes, its possible. Just not always in my case. Best of luck hon.. Its a wonderful world you are growing in!

Shay



nella -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 5:53:12 PM)

MadameBette thanks for your encuraging words.

i strongly feel that in D/s there is a different way for everyone, and like i have said before, the most pressing patter is to team up the right sub whit the right Dom.



subgreg -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/12/2005 10:06:22 PM)


I would like to thank everyone for their replies. The more opinions I hear, the better.



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