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Stephann -> RE: what makes Gor special? (2/14/2007 4:41:26 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
This is the best answer I've gotten to my question. Thank you. I still don't understand the protests that Gor is different from BDSM when it's a master/slave dynamic, almost exclusively. I have heard of one Gorean free woman and can not even attempt to count all the Gorean slaves I've heard of. I do believe that you can be a Gorean man and a Gorean free woman who have very plain sex and then I wouldn't count it as BDSM. I would call you conservative. But if you are a master and she is a slave, I can not consider you outside of BDSM.
Just like a dominant and a submissive can look to be no different from a conserative couple save their names, so can Goreans. But when one partner has no power or limited rights, then it's a power exchange relationship and that makes Goreans no different then any of us save the particulars of their specific relationship.
I guess that was the point of me asking the question. Sometimes Gor claims to be different from BDSM. If Gor was different BDSM, then the men wouldn't be seeking slaves almost exclusively.
My two cents.
Edited because it sent early.
Aquatic,
(warning, long and probably boring post)
I'll risk a dangerous statement; a slave is submissive, but a submissive is not necessarily slave. They have a great deal in common, but many subs and slaves become angry if you intentionally call them the other. It seems silly to us non-sub/slave types, but there you have it.
Most people don't rely on their interest in BDSM to provide guidence on, say, a decision at work. I recently made a post on a (short lived) job I held at a telemarketing firm, in regards to being hired to do a job I found acceptable (incoming call sales) and shortly after, being told we would be doing a job I do not accept (outgoing call sales) as 'training'... only to find that they were simply doing a bait and switch routine.
I don't consider myself Gorean, but advice from a Gorean perspective, on such an issue, was something I valued; indeed, the advice and support I received was surprising. I could just as easily posted the same question on the 'off topic' section of this forum, but I had a feeling I'd have received a pile of "telemarketing sucks, quit" answers (I'd be happy to prove it if you doubt that -wink.-) Thus, a serious 'Gorean' perspective is quite valuable to me. It's also completely unrelated to BDSM and D/s (excepting the concepts related to 'bullying' a caller into making a sale.)
I'm pretty direct in my believe that Gorean M/s follows the same patterns and rules that non Gorean M/s follows. The differences show, when we see the impact that Gor has on the men in non M/s situations. In a way that we do not see very often in popular culture, Gor addresses issues related to personal integrity, self-discipline, honesty, perseverance, work ethic, commitment to one's home and community; the list is pretty long. For a society of (many) men being raised by women, who hear on a regular basis that they should be apologetic for their own masculinity, Gor provides an alternative perspective for a world where a man may be who and what he is; not necessarily a dominant, not necessarily the owner of a slave, not necessarily a powerful warrior, but just a man. One could say this should be 'obvious' that we are all free to be who and what we are, but an hour of watching MTV or opening any men's magazine shows men should be something very different than who they are, and it will only cost $9.95/$29.95/$99.95 etc.
I've been speaking on the male perspective, obviously, but these same elements apply to females as well; that a woman needn't be 36DD-24-36 to be heart stoppingly beautiful, that she doesn't need to be rich, wear Gucci, etc etc. The attraction for Gor, for both sexes I think, is that people should embrace who they are as fully as possible. As this addresses very personal choices, other people's labels (conservative, BDSM, Gorean, etc) become immaterial. Thus, being a Gorean male carries a very different, personal choice compared to a BDSM top who, absent a play partner, would be a BDSM enthusiast. Enthusiasm in BDSM doesn't (inherently) provide any sort of philosophical impetus towards someone who is unhappy with their job, (short of becoming a professional dominant or shooting BDSM films.)
There's naturally a measure of elitism that is especially evident online. This doesn't have any bearing on the validity, value, or truth of the concepts discussed; it only shows poor manners. Goreans claim to be different from BDSM not because they (necessarily) believe themselves to be better. They tend to claim to be different, because they have little regard for what they might consider to be frivolous discussions. That works the same way in the BDSM community (I doubt many BDSMers want to participate in the 'Which Gorean Character from the Books Would you Most Like to Meet?' thread.) Frivolity, then, is subjective too.
So, in the end, Goreans can practice BDSM. People who like BDSM can believe in Gor. Some Goreans dislike BDSM oriented activities, considering them hypersexual. Some BDSMers dislike Goreans for being boring, or obssessed with fantasy. Some people are obsessed with Gor, and fantasy; some BDSM enthusiasts are nymphomaniacs (in a bad way.) Generalizations usually aren't conducive to healthy discussion. (Yes, my tongue is firmly in my cheek here.)
The last bit, then, dealing with men seeking slaves. As I touched on, dominant heterosexual men, in general, prefer submissive women. In the books, almost all women are expected to be submissive (free or otherwise.) Free women who were submissive, were treated with a measure of respect and deference; not unlike a D/s submissive. The distinction between a free woman and a slave represents the distinction between submissives and 'slaves' (though I'd prefer not to address sub vs/ slave in this thread if that's ok.) It stands to reason, that the majority of men interested in Gor would be (originally at least) drawn by the male dominated M/s relationships. Norman doesn't spend a great deal of time writing about the 'love' between a free man and a free woman, though he doesn't ignore it completely, either. I certainly don't join a vegetarian cooking group in hopes of finding a grilled chicken and steak recipes, do I? The catch is, that in Gorean philosophy, one is supposed to understand the underlying mechanics of dominance and submission, and embrace themselves as whole people before they start seeking out other slaves. To this end, the men whose words I respect most will usually say "I don't need to own a slave to be a Gorean." This isn't unique to Goreans, either. I believe for any sort of relationship of this sort, one must be fully in control of themselves before they might own a woman. The D/s saying about "a man must be his own master, before he can master another" is the closest thing we can come to in the BDSM community; but what does this statement really mean? The standard BDSM line about "whatever you want it to" doesn't seem sufficient enough for me. Obviously, we find truth wherever we find it, and not all (or even a great deal of) the truth of life is found in Norman's series. At the same time, this doesn't negate the value that truth has for those who find it there.
I've written far more than I intended to. Sorry folks. Have a lovely evening.
Stephan
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