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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 2:52:05 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Does anyone really believe that the Nazis intended to attack the UK ?

Another point about the USSR, how many people are aware that in the early 20's there was a civil War and France and the UK sent troops to intervene on the White Russian side. That is why, at root, the Red Russians felt they needed the buffer zone created by the territory they "acquired" during the War, that and the irrational anti communist stance of US governements of the late 40's onwards.


There are enough papers in existence for us to know the Germans realised an invasion of Britain would end up in a disaster for them, that was why they wanted to bomb Britain into submission. They didn't think they could bomb Britain back to the stoneage but they could make the civilian population call on their politicians to sue for peace. However, Germany had all the wrong aircraft for such a mission. They just hadn't considered the nature of what they were trying to do.

You're right seeks, the Russian stance was entirely rational and American paranoia over the communist threat was entirely irrational. Russia responded predictably to outside threats. Russian missiles on Cuba was a response to a threat (US nukes sited in Turkey) and not a provocation as seen by the US. If the US hadn't made the first move there wouldn't have been a move by the USSR. The Soviets were predictable, the US wasn't.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/16/2007 2:53:20 AM >

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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 3:12:56 AM   
poisonedprogress


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quote:

American paranoia over the communist threat was entirely irrational.


I don't know about that... Stalin was an insane madman at the helm of a powerful war machine. Paranoia over the communist threat, in this case the madman at the helm of a powerful war machine, seems at least somewhat rational. The resulting policies... not so much.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 3:42:51 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Frankly, with the Democrats voice of opposition only coming in the form of a meaningless non-binding resolution......the only thing left to do is await the construction of the Death Star and prepare for Darth Vader's arrival.



While I agree with you in a sense, UtopianRanger, I did have a few disagreements.

The Anti-War people in Congress are not a sufficient number to pass a binding resolution at this time.  Attempting to do so dilutes their power and leaves the US citizen with the idea that Congress is a bunch of incompetent nitwits.  Whereas passing a non-binding resolution that the pro-war goons cannot prevent draws a line in the sand which all the pro-war goons will be faced with when re-election comes up.

Secondly, any binding resolution will be either ignored or vetoed by the Special Education Reject In Chief, so it wont do any good anyway.

Took 6 years to get to where we are now, probably not a way to fix it in a hurry.

Sinergy


Hello Sinergy.....

I hope you had a pleasant stay in Portland.

I believe when the American people voted to return both the house and senate to the Democratic Party, it was a vote of vigorous opposition towards the war.

Instead of vigorous opposition, what they have now is escalation with Iran and a narcissistic and feckless approach that seems to be more concerned with the ''process'' rather than the solution.

The Vietnam War ended because both parties had the guts to come together and cut off all war funding through the Hatfield-McGovern amendment.

It's the proverbial line drawn in the sand. A non-binding resolution has no teeth and can only be construed as the Democrat's version of '' I told you so '' later.

The Democrats { Like Murtha said} should come together with legislation that cuts off war funding within 120 days if significant benchmarks are not met. They need to be bold and draw that line with a vote.....that way the American people know who is who.  

Any true servant of the people would do everything possible to push the neocons and their hunger for war up against the wall.


- R


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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 5:25:35 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poisonedprogress

quote:

American paranoia over the communist threat was entirely irrational.


I don't know about that... Stalin was an insane madman at the helm of a powerful war machine. Paranoia over the communist threat, in this case the madman at the helm of a powerful war machine, seems at least somewhat rational. The resulting policies... not so much.


At the start of the cold war no one knew what was happening in Russia under Stalin and neither did the USA when they dropped the A-bomb as a warning to Russia. To many people in Europe, WWII was a failure of capitalism and Russia had just won the war. For a brief spell, it looked to many people as the Russian way was the way forward. It was this that freaked rightwing Europeans and Americans. Anti-Soviet propaganda strarted almost before the last shots of the war were fired, it had nothing to do with the gulags. The Marshall plan was designed to pull people out of the Russian sphere and create a capitalist friendly Europe. Europe has tried to steer a middle way.

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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 5:45:59 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Can only agree MC. The US's rabid opposition to the USSR was not about the madman Stalin per se but about the way the Soviets organised their economy and what they, both the US and USSR, claimed was its basis, COMMUNISM.
The fact that we now know that the Soviet methods didn't work very well is beside the point. 5 year Tractor plans etc etc etc.

ooh the armaments industry in the US was "in there pitching" for more government expenditure, good for jobs !!
They built some WMDs.   Should we invade?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/16/2007 5:47:46 AM >

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RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 6:36:41 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Another point about the USSR, how many people are aware that in the early 20's there was a civil War and France and the UK sent troops to intervene on the White Russian side. That is why, at root, the Red Russians felt they needed the buffer zone created by the territory they "acquired" during the War, that and the irrational anti communist stance of US governements of the late 40's onwards.


Have you ever examined the number of troops involved in this intervention?
 
  • 50,000 Czechoslovaks
  • 28,000 Japanese (later increased to 70,000)
  • 15,500 Americans
  • 12,000 Poles
  • 4,000 Canadians
  • 4,000 Serbs
  • 4,000 Romanians
  • 2,000 Italians
  • 1,600 British
  • 760 French
     
    Looking at that, a person could come to the conclusion that the Soviets were more interested in being involved in the governments of the major players involved in that intervention, rather than as a buffer to France and the UK.

    (in reply to seeksfemslave)
    • Profile   Post #: 86
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 6:53:23 AM   
    Aubre


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    I feel the same way about Britain and the raids on Leipzig and Hamburg, both needless and both criminal acts against civilian populations.
    [/quote]

    Treblinka, Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, etc. were pretty criminal and needless IMO.

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 87
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 6:57:11 AM   
    cloudboy


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


    The Soviet system was rotten from the outset, even Lenin admitted it was an experiment that wouldn't work.

    I've mention it before, PJ O'Rourke said if the CIA sent an agent on a shopping trip to Moscow he would find the Soviets couldn't organise a shopping trip never mind a war. The whole place was falling apart by the 1970s. Having been there in '72, you could more or less buy the best hotel room in town for a pair of Levis and you could get a barrow load of roubles for one Beatles LP. It was kudos for a Russian to have the real thing.

    I actually sold ten Russian illegal copies of Beatle albums for five pounds each when I got back to England. That was a time when I had been earning fifteen pounds a week to save up to go to Russia. I reckon I missed my black market vocation.


    I got an MA in Russian back in my 20s. My last trip back there was in 94. At that time, some friends of mine became millionaires buy buying containers of Marlboro cigarettes that Phillip Morris was dumping in Russia. My friends then retransported those cigarettes back to Western Europe and resold them.

    There you see the whole problem of the Russian economy in a nutshell. The money is made by middlemen who exploit the supply and demand holes or by the elites selling off the nation's natural resources. There's little or nothing the Russians actually make and design themselves which is world standard.

    Solzhenitsyn also argued you can't build a sustainable nation, economy, or policy on lies. At some point the lies become exposed which thereafter undermine the whole system. The IRAQ war is our own little Soviet experiment, b/c its a war predicated on and perpetrated by autocratic, government manipulation.

    I was watching FRONTLINE this week. One tack of the Bush ADM leading us into the war was leaking information to the press (Judy Miller of the NYT) and then quoting the press in Adminstrative interviews. This was brilliantly underhanded.

    The major theme of the the episode was how the US Gov't has a plethora of tools to gather information and disseminate it --- giving it tremendous power to shape public opinion and manipulate the press. Its all very Soviet indeed. Ironically, its the whistle blowers and investigative journalists who are labeled "commies" by the right wing here. Its a goddam laugh-riot.

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 88
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 7:19:13 AM   
    Sinergy


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

    Hello Sinergy.....

    I hope you had a pleasant stay in Portland.



    I dont remember much of it, UtopianRanger, but thank you for the kind words.  My job is extremely physical, and instead of the normal 3.5 hours in my armor, the business trip was 6.5 hours a day, 5 days in a row.  I basically finished being mean to people and getting kicked in the head, to stagger back to my hotel room and fall asleep.

    Took me most of last week to physically recover from it.

    quote:



    I believe when the American people voted to return both the house and senate to the Democratic Party, it was a vote of vigorous opposition towards the war.



    I completely agree with this.

    quote:



    Instead of vigorous opposition, what they have now is escalation with Iran and a narcissistic and feckless approach that seems to be more concerned with the ''process'' rather than the solution.



    Does the anti-war membership in Congress have the votes necessary to pass a binding resolution?

    While the Democrats "control" both houses of Congress and can determine membership in committees, I am not
    sure they have the power to make things happen quickly.

    quote:



    The Vietnam War ended because both parties had the guts to come together and cut off all war funding through the Hatfield-McGovern amendment.

    It's the proverbial line drawn in the sand. A non-binding resolution has no teeth and can only be construed as the Democrat's version of '' I told you so '' later.

    The Democrats { Like Murtha said} should come together with legislation that cuts off war funding within 120 days if significant benchmarks are not met. They need to be bold and draw that line with a vote.....that way the American people know who is who.  



    My point is not one of disagreement with this as a great idea.  My question is whether or not this is possible.

    Dumbfuckistan gave Monkeyboy access to the Big Red Button.  How far will the Simian In Chief go to realize his insanity?

    quote:



    Any true servant of the people would do everything possible to push the neocons and their hunger for war up against the wall.



    There is a lovely quote from Douglas Adams which might apply to your last sentence.  It goes "First against the wall when the revolution comes."

    Just me, could be wrong, etc.

    Sinergy

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    (in reply to UtopianRanger)
    Profile   Post #: 89
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 7:31:50 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: cloudboy

    The major theme of the the episode was how the US Gov't has a plethora of tools to gather information and disseminate it --- giving it tremendous power to shape public opinion and manipulate the press. Its all very Soviet indeed. Ironically, its the whistle blowers and investigative journalists who are labeled "commies" by the right wing here. Its a goddam laugh-riot.


    I was travelling regularly between Britain, Holland France and Germany during the build up to the war and the difference between the British media and the continental media was stark. With a few exceptions the British media had you expecting Iraqi missiles to be blitzing London any day. In the media of the other countries was mainly frustration and bafflement at this immediate need to invade a country that was seen as troublesome but relatively harmless. The sensible voices in Britain were just being ignored or drowned out. It made me realise just how much the government and its friends controled the media and yep, it is Stalinist and it is destructive.

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    Profile   Post #: 90
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 8:37:16 AM   
    caitlyn


    Posts: 3473
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    Status: offline     		Perhaps some in Britain were swayed by the idea that France and Germany were selling arms and technology to the Iraqis.

    (in reply to meatcleaver)
    Profile   Post #: 91
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 10:16:46 AM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn

    Perhaps some in Britain were swayed by the idea that France and Germany were selling arms and technology to the Iraqis.


    Come on cattlyn, America had helped Saddam out. While I'm no lover of the arms industry, as far as I'm concerned all countries are as bad as each other. All appear to condemn a country for selling arms to A and not B but show no compunction about selling arms to dodgey regimes themselves. The one thing I will say in France's favour although it doesn't leave me thinking any better of them, they don't pretend to be moralistic and dress their policies up as being for the benefit of civilisation when they are nothing but selfish. Britain is pretty good at selling arms to dodgey regimes and wasn't above selling gear to Saddam either. The sad thing is, whatever the western country, dollars come before human life.

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    Profile   Post #: 92
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 10:47:40 AM   
    seeksfemslave


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
    Another point about the USSR, how many people are aware that in the early 20's there was a civil War and France and the UK sent troops to intervene on the White Russian side. That is why, at root, the Red Russians felt they needed the buffer zone created by the territory they "acquired" during the War, that and the irrational anti communist stance of US governements of the late 40's onwards.


    Have you ever examined the number of troops involved in this intervention?
     
  • 50,000 Czechoslovaks
  • 28,000 Japanese (later increased to 70,000)
  • 15,500 Americans
  • 12,000 Poles
  • 4,000 Canadians
  • 4,000 Serbs
  • 4,000 Romanians
  • 2,000 Italians
  • 1,600 British
  • 760 French
     
    Looking at that, a person could come to the conclusion that the Soviets were more interested in being involved in the governments of the major players involved in that intervention, rather than as a buffer to France and the UK.

    • Caitlyn: Are you saying that that number of foreign, to the USSR troops were involved in the Russian Civil War, or counter insurgency. ?

    Thats a genuine question cos' your post has me flummoxed ie confused. Hang on maybe I do understand what you are driving at. At the time the Red Russians ie those that ultimately led to the Stalin regime were trying to recover from the depredations of WW1. They certainly had no eyes for say Canada, did they ?

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    Profile   Post #: 93
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 10:51:45 AM   
    seeksfemslave


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL meatcleaver
    With a few exceptions the British media had you expecting Iraqi missiles to be blitzing London any day.


    Cant agree with that. The unnamed but clearly implied target of these WMDs was...
    1
    2
    3
    ISRAEL.

    (in reply to seeksfemslave)
    Profile   Post #: 94
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 12:36:59 PM   
    caitlyn


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
    Come on cattlyn, America had helped Saddam out.


    Your point, and my counterpoint had nothing to do with the United States ... nothing at all.

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    Profile   Post #: 95
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 12:52:21 PM   
    caitlyn


    Posts: 3473
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    Status: offline     		These are the number of foreign troops that fought against the Red Army between 1918 and 1920.
     
    The major players were the Czech Foreign Legion, the United States, Poland, Serbia and Romania. Most of the Canadian forces were actually Americans enlisted in the Canadian army, to fight in Russia (odd to be sure). Japan, who sent by far the most troops, was primarily interested in a land grab.

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    Profile   Post #: 96
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 12:56:12 PM   
    meatcleaver


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
    Come on cattlyn, America had helped Saddam out.


    Your point, and my counterpoint had nothing to do with the United States ... nothing at all.


    It did. Why would Brits be swayed by Germany and France selling arms to Saddam when the country (USA) that wanted them to join them in a war had no problem helping him out either.

    _____________________________

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    Profile   Post #: 97
    RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US M... - 2/16/2007 1:00:08 PM   
    Stephann


    Posts: 4214
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    Status: offline     		And who here doesn't believe that Isreal is being used as a buffer for (and funded by) the West?


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    Profile   Post #: 98
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