Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 1:49:05 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial;_ylt=AudJUseGMFce48vxCO3S4QgUewgF

Any comments on this story?  Does this guy belong in jail?  Does the EU have the right to prosecute someone in Canada for posting on the Web?  I say no in both cases.  For the record, I am sure that  they killed at least 6 million.  I am part Polish Jew.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 2:16:50 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial;_ylt=AudJUseGMFce48vxCO3S4QgUewgF

Any comments on this story?  Does this guy belong in jail?  Does the EU have the right to prosecute someone in Canada for posting on the Web?  I say no in both cases.  For the record, I am sure that  they killed at least 6 million.  I am part Polish Jew.


I can understand the German position on holocaust denial, it is of course a big thing to them and they don't want to be seen in anyway to condone denial of what they did. Thinking about it Germany is one of the only country that has fully and unreservedly accepted its crimes against humanity.

However, I think holocaust denial is a stupid law and would just give deniers credibility. I'm totally against an EU law banning holocaust denial, it is an infringment of free speach and it will just feed those conspiracy theorists. It is far better for deniers to be mocked than martyred.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 2:39:09 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I also believe the law prosecuting those who deny the holocaust is a bad one but to start raising justifying points given the subject is not an easy emotional thing to do.

One point clearly stands in my mind is the car worker extradited from the US to stand trial in Israel for complicity in the holocaust. It came to to light during the trial that many of the accusations against him were false. The proof of this was in the records held by the prosecution at the trial. ie his whereabouts were known when he was being accused of atrocities elsewhere.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 2:51:55 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

I can understand the German position on holocaust denial, it is of course a big thing to them and they don't want to be seen in anyway to condone denial of what they did. Thinking about it Germany is one of the only country that has fully and unreservedly accepted its crimes against humanity.

However, I think holocaust denial is a stupid law and would just give deniers credibility. I'm totally against an EU law banning holocaust denial, it is an infringment of free speach and it will just feed those conspiracy theorists. It is far better for deniers to be mocked than martyred.


It's a good sign to see two posters from the UK who have a problem with this. For the record....  short of yelling ''fire'' in a crowded theater, I don't believe-in / support any form of selective free speech. Hate speech laws sponsored /pushed by APAC and B'nai B'rith suck.



JMHO



- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/16/2007 2:53:36 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 5:37:22 AM   
wickednnc


Posts: 21
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline 		Slippery slopes exist everywhere in society. This is just one example. Rights given up to law and government are usually rights that are never returned. But even more than that is the attempt to confine thought within pre-selected boundaries.

I have the same problem with hate laws. Dead is dead. Injured is injured - regardless of the reason it's done. Victims and their families want justice. I don't believe justice is more just by estimating that one person's loss is greater than anothers simply because of words the killer/basher might have said.

Maybe I'm just anti-social for being able to envision a society when the magnetic strips on credit and debit cards tally your estimated monthy intake of calories, fat, carbs and other sundry items in some national database and the police rush into arrest you for eating an extra scoop of ice cream. After all, we can't have people putting an undue burden on society's resources with their unhealthy behavior now can we.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 5:43:32 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

It's a good sign to see two posters from the UK who have a problem with this. For the record....  short of yelling ''fire'' in a crowded theater, I don't believe-in / support any form of selective free speech. Hate speech laws sponsored /pushed by APAC and B'nai B'rith suck.



I could imagine Blair supporting such a law, he has a social work approach to politics, that's why we are in Iraq, those 'darkies' can't be trusted to look after themselves (though he would never consider himself a racist). Ironically he has introduced race hate laws into Britain. I hate his paternalism and his certainty of he knows best for everybody. He has all the characteristics of a neo-colonial paternalist, maybe even a dictator given the opportunity.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/16/2007 5:44:18 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 6:22:32 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		FR

Is it possible that everyone will agree? I am one of these people completely against this law. I also think that if someone claims something completely ludicrous like this just illustrate the facts.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 7:08:24 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I can understand the German position on holocaust denial, it is of course a big thing to them and they don't want to be seen in anyway to condone denial of what they did. Thinking about it Germany is one of the only country that has fully and unreservedly accepted its crimes against humanity.

However, I think holocaust denial is a stupid law and would just give deniers credibility. I'm totally against an EU law banning holocaust denial, it is an infringment of free speach and it will just feed those conspiracy theorists. It is far better for deniers to be mocked than martyred.


Well... what do you know... we do agree on some things.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 7:08:59 AM   
Aubre


Posts: 478
Joined: 12/9/2004
Status: offline 		I don't see this as a free speech or hate crime issue, I see it as a libel/slander/fraud type of issue.  Holocaust deniers are using lies in order to attempt to harm people and or make money in the process. I think he got off light.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 7:10:46 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Everyone should be able to speak their mind and then let the chips fall where they may......We have a few real boneheads out her who prove their limited ability to think clearly with their posts.....But let them post and then let them be ridiculed!!!....

This is the slippery slope...with wire taps ...and the patriot act. Who determines exactly who and what language are those of a terrorist?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/16/2007 7:12:42 AM >

_____________________________



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 7:12:11 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial;_ylt=AudJUseGMFce48vxCO3S4QgUewgF

Any comments on this story?  Does this guy belong in jail?  Does the EU have the right to prosecute someone in Canada for posting on the Web?  I say no in both cases.  For the record, I am sure that  they killed at least 6 million.  I am part Polish Jew.


luckydog1:
If this clown had been tried in the U.S, for libel and slander he could be doing about the same amount of time and a healthy fine. 
The U.S. has no problem kidnapping people they suspect of terrorist activities and taking them to states where torture is not against the law to question them.
The U.S. did not seem to have any problem sending the U.S. Army Airborn to arrest Noriega....my opinion is the asshole got less than he deserved.  My only hope is that his cellmate is some knuckle dragger named bubbastein
thompson

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 7:32:58 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's pretty frivolous to compare hate-speech laws with a task force waiting to arrest you for eating an extra scoop of ice cream.

My own view is that all the German laws about hate speech are misguided and wouldn't be Constitutional in the U.S., but it's very hard to have any sympathy for this asshole.  Have you read about the case?  One of his lawyers had to be carried out of the courtroom in an earlier trial because she kept shouting that the proud German people were about to re-assume their destiny, or some bullshit like that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wickednnc

Maybe I'm just anti-social for being able to envision a society when the magnetic strips on credit and debit cards tally your estimated monthy intake of calories, fat, carbs and other sundry items in some national database and the police rush into arrest you for eating an extra scoop of ice cream. After all, we can't have people putting an undue burden on society's resources with their unhealthy behavior now can we.

(in reply to wickednnc)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 8:23:16 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I say no on both counts. He is expressing his opinion, and though it is a hurtful, malicious and blatantly idiotic opinion, he has the right to express it. And as for the EU prosecuting somebody for what they did in Canada, well that is just wrong....he di nothing in Germany, so how can they possibly say he commited a crime...if a crime was committed, it was in Canada, and therefore it is up to Canada to prosecute, not Germany. I firmly hope that Canada refuses to extradite, etc., but I doubt they will...our Gvt is way to PC

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 9:22:51 AM   
wickednnc


Posts: 21
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I think it's pretty frivolous to compare hate-speech laws with a task force waiting to arrest you for eating an extra scoop of ice cream.


Frivoulous or not, it's where the slope leads when you start sliding down it. Every dent made in rights is just that less of a distance the next assualt on them has to take. Imprisoning people because they say things you don't like is the type of thinking that leads to not just sliding down that slope, but doing it headlong. Then again, society no longer has a concept of responsibility. We're always looking for someone else to blame, and for government to make life easy for us. I don't have a problem with sending him to prison for causing harm. I do have a problem with sending him to prison over his beliefs.

Now, a mental institution may be more appropriate, but not prison. It's not a crime to be stupid yet.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 9:32:56 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I'm with everyone else, NO and NO.
I'm a big supporter of the First Amendment.
That's kind of funny actually.
"What do you do for a living?"
"Me, I'm a Holocaust Denier, been at it right out of school. "
"Long hours but no heavy lifting and I get 4 weeks vacation per year."

"Hey Johnny, what do you want to be when you grow up?"
"Fireman, Cop, Cowboy?"
Noo! I wanna be a "Holocaust Denier!"

(in reply to wickednnc)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 10:11:57 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I am glad to see we are all on the same page here. 
Though I have to disagree with Thompsonx.  "In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), which is the tort or delict of making a false statement of fact that injures someone's reputation."  He could not be convicted of Libel or Slander for denying the holoucost, as he was not injuring anyones reputation.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 11:37:01 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany's determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn't murder six million Jews.    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070215/ap_on_re_eu/germany_incitement_trial;_ylt=AudJUseGMFce48vxCO3S4QgUewgF

Any comments on this story?  Does this guy belong in jail?  Does the EU have the right to prosecute someone in Canada for posting on the Web?  I say no in both cases.  For the record, I am sure that  they killed at least 6 million.  I am part Polish Jew.


Well, it's a difficult case as usual. Should a warped point of view mean a jail term?

I think the problem occurs when it is organised and backed by the establishment. In other words, one solitary half-wit is not a problem - leave them to spout nonsense and wallow in ignorance. On the other hand, when you have an establishment or government pushing an extreme right-wing agenda, this is a serious problem.

Should he be sent to jail? no. There is an education issue which needs resolving however.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 11:43:47 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Everyone should be able to speak their mind and then let the chips fall where they may......



This is where I disagree. If hitler had been shutdown in the 1920s history would have been different. One lone idiot is not a problem. A nationalist agenda with support is a problem.

The Germans were not inherently more racist than anyone else, one thing lead to another and spiralled out of control. Sometimes you have to nip a problem in the bud and, if it means stifling a person's right to be heard, then so be it - the lesser of two evils etc.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 12:10:56 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Everyone should be able to speak their mind and then let the chips fall where they may......



This is where I disagree. If hitler had been shutdown in the 1920s history would have been different. One lone idiot is not a problem. A nationalist agenda with support is a problem.

The Germans were not inherently more racist than anyone else, one thing lead to another and spiralled out of control. Sometimes you have to nip a problem in the bud and, if it means stifling a person's right to be heard, then so be it - the lesser of two evils etc.




I do agree to a point....So just out of morbid curiousity I google searched  "ku klux klan" and went on to two of their websites...I vehemently oppose all that is spewed on these sites...Are they a terrorist group? They "now" go out of their way to address that violence is not the path....Sickening nonetheless...Not buying any of it.

It sucks,  but in order to have free speech it often means someone screaming at the top of their lungs something you find so grotesque and offensive...and thank God you have the right to respond...And you just hope that common sense will prevail and that people will be able to make the "right" decision.

I have always loved the fact that if someone is so pissed off that they can burn the very symbol of our country, the flag, in protest...These are but a few costs and luxuries that a truly free country provides and honors.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 2/16/2007 12:12:15 PM >

_____________________________



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/16/2007 12:11:11 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		N.G., I was wondering, do you think that "Holocaust Deniers" have a Union?
You know like, "Holocaust Deniers Amalgamated Union, local 105" or something like that?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078