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RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:56:29 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You because of your superior reasoning and left wingness? Do you see the problem with this?



This is twice you've insinuated I can't see what you can, which is drawing an early conclusion to an ongoing discussion. I would strongly advise against drawing a conclusion half-way through a discussion.

Let's take a practical example - do you think the Nazis were entitled to their freedom of speech which ended in genocide and the deaths of millions of people?

I think that if the Nazis had not stomped on freedom of speech by imprisoning journalists the Holocaust would never have happened.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 8:40:27 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		when one group of people have the ability to imprison another group of people because for any reason it leads to things like the Holocaust

Hitler took civil liberties away... The Enabling Act was about making sure no one could speak out against him... so basically freedom of speech is the very thing that keeps Hitlers in check. http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~jobrien/reference/ob60.html

If I got somewhat heated in my responses NG, it is only because I have compared and contrasted The Enabling Act with the Patriot Act, they were very similar. I am unaware of what happened in the UK after 911, but if it was like life here, one could not speak out against Bush in the aftermath and what he planned to do without a bunch of people shouting one down. Add to that my government follows dissidents, infiltrates peace groups, wanted to establish an office of Information Awareness... well I was very concerned after 911 that we were going toward a 1933 Germany model. It was not what Hitler said that gained him power, it was the Reichstag Fire that gave him power over a previously coalition style democracy.

I think that before one starts blaming hate speech for genocide they need to understand that the vast majority of Germans never knew about the Holocaust, never would have approved of it, and did not agree with Hitler when it came to Jewish people. They often ignored his views.

Here is an important Poem

First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller
 
It would seem the lack of speech causes things like Genocide. All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good people remain silent

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/17/2007 8:41:02 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 8:54:26 AM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I think driving the KKK underground in the USA would have been a disaster.  It is far better for groups like that to be exposed for what they are.  Debate them in open.  Ban thier covering thier faces in public.  If belonging to the KKK or espousing views in line with the KKK was a crime, a lot of people would have been radicalized.  Innocent people would get punished causing a backlash.  It would drive a whole level of Conspiricy nonsense.  And it would give the KKK credibility.

Perhaps one of our europeon posters can verify this....It seems I have been reading for years that Neo Nazi activity in Europe( in general) and Germany( in paticular) is on the rise.   Banning the speech has not seemed to eliminate it.  I think a law like this is counter productive.


Luckydog, I agree. I want the nut groups out in the open and vocal so everyone can see/hear them.
I think that we need to err on the side of freedom and free speech.
That's why I am so opposed to that school/cult of "Political -Correctness." Just like any other repressive group it is dangerous to freedom.
There are a few people in this site that I rarely agree with but the absolute last thing that I would do is to try to silence them!
NG, what if someone said; "That Northern Gent's ideas are dangerous, he's got to go!"
lol

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:07:26 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
It is very easy to say everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, but you need to think about the potential consequences - e.g. Hitler etc. I'm not for one minute saying one lone idiot should be silenced, but there comes a point where a powerful lobby is a serious threat to the interests of wider society and you need to weigh up civil liberties against the interests of wider society. It's not always black and white.


     Replace Hitler with Marx, in your example, North.  It would be pretty easy to make a case that more people have died as a result of attempts to implement his ideas, or by totalitarian types claiming that, than the Nazis ever killed.  Are you still so eager to weigh Free Speech against the interest of wider society?


Wyrd, if you're suggesting that I'll defend the excesses of the USSR, simply because my politics is left of centre, we're on a completely different level of thought.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:10:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You because of your superior reasoning and left wingness? Do you see the problem with this?



This is twice you've insinuated I can't see what you can, which is drawing an early conclusion to an ongoing discussion. I would strongly advise against drawing a conclusion half-way through a discussion.

Let's take a practical example - do you think the Nazis were entitled to their freedom of speech which ended in genocide and the deaths of millions of people?

I think that if the Nazis had not stomped on freedom of speech by imprisoning journalists the Holocaust would never have happened.


That's an answer to a different question.

In hindsight, in the 1920s, when Hitler and the Nazis were developing a power base, but were still in their infancy, should they have been shut down?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:31:12 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

the vast majority of Germans never knew about the Holocaust, never would have approved of it, and did not agree with Hitler when it came to Jewish people.



I agree with the above. My university days were spent studying the rise of the Nazis. It's an interesting period of history because the Germans were up there with the most civilised nations when it comes to philosophy, technology and science.

The majority of Germans however were aware of the pogroms and the likes of Kristallnacht. They were aware of the burning of Jewish books and art as well as the looting and boycott of Jewish shops. They were aware of the yellow stars and aware of Jews leaving in droves to other countries to escape anti-semitism.

In terms of facts, I think most would agree with the following:

1) Hitler began as a crank.
2) He established a power base including powerful industrialists and militarists in the 1920s.
3) His party swayed the minds of average Germans and, as a result, Germans stood back and watched rampant anti-semitism.
4) The conclusion of this cycle events was the holocaust. The holocaust didn't just happen, like anything it was the result of a chain of events.

In hindsight, should 2 have been allowed to become 3 and 4.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It would seem the lack of speech causes things like Genocide. All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good people remain silent



Genocide is not caused by "a lack of speech". It is caused by the thoughts and actions of a malevolent group in society. The intentions of these people are the driving force. Then there is a tough choice to make - stand by and watch potential serious consequences or intervene. Society can't really work unless there is a balance between civil liberties, responsibility and law.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/17/2007 11:33:12 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:32:17 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

In hindsight, in the 1920s, when Hitler and the Nazis were developing a power base, but were still in their infancy, should they have been shut down?


How to know when someone is just spouting nasty opinions about a certain group of people? I mean in this country there are some very awful things spouted about Mexican immigrants, there are some people who state they should be shot on the border, who advocate letting them die for lack of medical care. Personally I find these view beyond repugnant, yet no one ever suggested that people should be imprisoned for stating these things... I would rather deal with people out in the open and dismiss their irrational hatred by showing them intellectually and morally wrong than relegating them to the dark, roaches disappear when you shine a light on them.

We can intellectually dismiss those that state that the Holocaust never happened. We can prove them wrong, but these figures gain credibility when we lock them away. There are a small group of people that think that the Earth is flat and that man never landed on the moon. If we started to imprison them I bet they would get a lot more attention.

I have read some of the most racist crap on the internet when researching it for a class. I have to say that I believe the best way to deal with such people is to debate them, and if they are unwilling to logically debate that shows how afraid they are of it.

In this country members of the KKK have been allowed opportunity to speak on TV, and because they are so vile, so nasty, so hatefilled the vast majority of people are repulsed by them... perhaps they would find root to grow if buried.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:36:34 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

In hindsight, in the 1920s, when Hitler and the Nazis were developing a power base, but were still in their infancy, should they have been shut down?


Ah, but how would you have shut them down? That for me is the tricky question.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:37:26 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Julia, I'm looking at a practical example (Nazi Germany) as opposed to ifs and buts, as per my last post.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:42:45 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

In hindsight, in the 1920s, when Hitler and the Nazis were developing a power base, but were still in their infancy, should they have been shut down?


Ah, but how would you have shut them down? That for me is the tricky question.


I agree, not easy without impeding the civil liberties of responsible citizens. This is a different issue however.

1) There is the principle of whether or not freedom of speech should have limits.
2) The practicalities of how you impose these limits is another matter.

I'm not a law maker so can't come up with the answer to 2, but what I do know is the potential consequences of speech, and its role as the catalyst in a chain of events, need to be considered when considering freedom of speech.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:43:55 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It would seem the lack of speech causes things like Genocide. All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good people remain silent



Genocide is not caused by "a lack of speech". It is caused by the thoughts and actions of a malevolent group in society. The intentions of these people are the driving force.


But doesn't the lack of free speech make it easier for the genocidal force to operate unopposed? Mightn't carrying out the Holocaust have been harder if there were newspapers documenting and decrying what was happening? Maybe not, honesty compels me to admit. One could argue that the Germans were well aware of what was happening.

quote:

Then there is a tough choice to make - stand by and watch potential serious consequences or intervene.


Everything in me aches to say "Intervene!" yet it's hard to see how to do so without trampling others' rights in the process.

quote:

Society can't really work unless there is a balance between civil liberties, responsibility and law.


Agreed.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:53:45 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:


1) There is the principle of whether or not freedom of speech should have limits.
2) The practicalities of how you impose these limits is another matter.


I find it hard, perhaps even impossible to separate the two. Part of what makes me so reluctant to accept limits on free speech is the difficulty of setting/enforcing those limits without abridging other folks' rights.

It's important to bear in mind, I think, that all too many governments hanker to restrict speech. I've been reading James MacGregor Burns's Vineyard of Liberty, and last night's section was about the Sedition Act, which John Adams signed to his eternal shame. The ink was barely dry on the Constitution, and the government was already attempting to circumscribe what people could say!

That's a key part of why I'm so wary of allowing even the best intentions (such as our hope of shutting down future Hitlers) to open the door for restrictions. Limits on speech, I think, can do as much damage as speech itself.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:55:04 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		I trust we can all agree, though, that free speech does not include mocking the royal family.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:55:23 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Julia, I'm looking at a practical example (Nazi Germany) as opposed to ifs and buts, as per my last post.


NG, to be honest I have no clue what you mean.

I have made a pretty compelling argument for freedom of speech when speaking about the Nazis, and you have not refuted it, nor have you shown how to stopping people's rights to put forward different views of the historical accuracy of the Holocaust is not better addressed by shooting holes in its factualness as opposed to taking the physical liberty away of that individual.

I stated earlier that of course it is incumbant upon society to lock up people that directly conspire to commit hate crimes and are encouraging people to do it by inspiring hatred. There is a big difference between saying "I do not think the Holocaust happened, all Jews are liars", and stating that "All Jews are liars so we should go arrest them and take their property and send them to camps" Can you see the difference? I am sincerely asking this question


And btw, since my country is so hated now, and my people so reviled around the world for being fat lazy, oil steeling dumbasses... I think we should arrest anyone that says these things because not all of us are this way. Therefore they are inspiring hatred against me and encouraging terrorism... what would you say if the USA started enforcing hate crime laws on the world at large in their war on terror?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/17/2007 11:56:33 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:58:31 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

But doesn't the lack of free speech make it easier for the genocidal force to operate unopposed? Mightn't carrying out the Holocaust have been harder if there were newspapers documenting and decrying what was happening? Maybe not, honesty compels me to admit. One could argue that the Germans were well aware of what was happening.



There are stages in development.

The Nazis were brutal and operated a regime of torture, murder and fear. No doubt about that. In the late 1930s, they had such a grip on the country that there was no way they could have been stopped, despite the best efforts of some German resistance groups.

They did not just get to this point however. There was a time when the Nazis were in their infancy and establishing a power base i.e. in the mid to late 1920s. They had openly declared their intention to create a master race devoid of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, slavs and others. They could have been shut down when it became clear they were gaining widespread and powerful support. At this time, there was free speech - there were no attempts to surpress opinion. The problem was, this allowed the Nazis to gain power and within a few years there is nothing that could have been done to rein them in. In hindsight, I'll suggest they should have been shut down, others seem to disagree.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 11:59:47 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Everyone should be able to speak their mind and then let the chips fall where they may......We have a few real boneheads out her who prove their limited ability to think clearly with their posts.....But let them post and then let them be ridiculed!!!....

This is the slippery slope...with wire taps ...and the patriot act. Who determines exactly who and what language are those of a terrorist?


quote:

A Canadian law, passed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, allows the government to hold terrorism suspects without charge, based on secret evidence that does not have to be disclosed to a suspect or his defense.

Zundel was deported a few days later.

Zundel has claimed he is a peaceful man with no criminal record against him in Canada. 


Since this is happpening worldwide i have no choice but to conclude it is all by design as i have stated here.
http://www.collarchat.com/m_835902/tm.htm




_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 12:00:53 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		To add, the surpression of free speech came after the Nazis gained power. In other words, it was not instrumental in them gaining power and not instrumental in the holocaust.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 12:01:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

the vast majority of Germans never knew about the Holocaust, never would have approved of it, and did not agree with Hitler when it came to Jewish people.



I agree with the above. My university days were spent studying the rise of the Nazis. It's an interesting period of history because the Germans were up there with the most civilised nations when it comes to philosophy, technology and science.

The majority of Germans however were aware of the pogroms and the likes of Kristallnacht. They were aware of the burning of Jewish books and art as well as the looting and boycott of Jewish shops. They were aware of the yellow stars and aware of Jews leaving in droves to other countries to escape anti-semitism.

In terms of facts, I think most would agree with the following:

1) Hitler began as a crank.
2) He established a power base including powerful industrialists and militarists in the 1920s.
3) His party swayed the minds of average Germans and, as a result, Germans stood back and watched rampant anti-semitism.
4) The conclusion of this cycle events was the holocaust. The holocaust didn't just happen, like anything it was the result of a chain of events.

In hindsight, should 2 have been allowed to become 3 and 4.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It would seem the lack of speech causes things like Genocide. All that is needed for evil to triumph is that good people remain silent



Genocide is not caused by "a lack of speech". It is caused by the thoughts and actions of a malevolent group in society. The intentions of these people are the driving force. Then there is a tough choice to make - stand by and watch potential serious consequences or intervene. Society can't really work unless there is a balance between civil liberties, responsibility and law.


I just saw this post.

The Germans were often fearful of speaking up after Hitler consolidated his dictatorship. Life seemed better for Germans after he took over, he instilled pride in them. My point is that people knew to speak out against him was an invitation to a concentration camp... he led by not only a carrot, but a stick. He did this by abridging civil liberties, one that he abridged was freedom of the press.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 12:03:37 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Julia, I'm looking at a practical example (Nazi Germany) as opposed to ifs and buts, as per my last post.


NG, to be honest I have no clue what you mean.



If you go back and read post 66, you'll see the question "should 2 have been allowed to become 3 and 4". Read the full post and, hopefully, you'll have a clue.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 12:05:03 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To add, the surpression of free speech came after the Nazis gained power. In other words, it was not instrumental in them gaining power and not instrumental in the holocaust.


They gained it the way that many in this country are suspicious that GW gained his, by framing people burning the Reichstag....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 80
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