RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years

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Wolf1020 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:16:09 PM)
quote: Well, it sounds great. I take my hat off to you. However, what is the point in shooting someone in the head? This isn't some sort of bravado, nor is it a computer game. This is the intricacies of human existence. The point of shooting someone in the head is to keep from being killed or put into danger. I hold no false hopes of taking on an entire police force myself, but I will not be surrendering my only means to defense of rioting looters either. quote: By the way, where were your guns when bush and associates were indirectly and directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq? Not interested or disarmed? What the hell does this have to do with the issue of firearms preventing millions of deaths or to a holocaust denier getting jail time? Bush isn't a godsend, but you know it wouldn't hurt to focus on something besides "Blame Bush!"

NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:25:14 PM)
Interesting to hear the US is struggling with "rioting looters". Is this bush and associates or another group who just look like them? Send 'em over here and we'll torture them with endless conversations about tea making facilities. They'll soon lose the will to live and will set up shop in a farm somewhere. The point about the guns - if you're so concerned about civil rights, then why aren't you using your guns on the government? Are you really interested in the concept of civil liberties, or is it really about you?

popeye1250 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:26:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf1020 quote: NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it. It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms. If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan. I like this guy [sm=applause.gif] As to the person who said something along the lines of a lot of good it does when they take them away? I asure you anyone tries to pull a NOLA on me and I will be taking many of them with me. Well, it sounds great. I take my hat off to you. However, what is the point in shooting someone in the head? This isn't some sort of bravado, nor is it a computer game. This is the intricacies of human existence. By the way, where were your guns when bush and associates were indirectly and directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq? Not interested or disarmed? NG, I'd say not interested. I've kept telling my congressman and senators that Bush should be impeached for dereliction of duty for not enforcing our immigration laws and for not closing that Mexican border but they don't want to do anything about it it would seem. Funny thing about the second amendment, you couldn't have the first amendment without it. Funny but we may very well see some shooting in this country if Bush doesn't pardon those two Border Patrol Agents. The People are beginning to become real angry about this! This is shaping up to be a real ferocious slow burn. The Bush Administration is totally unresponsive to The People. There are 80 million gun owners in this country and probably 400 million firearms. I own 16 myself. All flavors.

NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:38:13 PM)
The thing is Popeye, you're people.....the Iraqis are people. If your government isn't fazed by killing Iraqis, then what makes you think they'd be fazed by allowing a few Mexicans over the border? What makes you think they'll turn their emotions on like a tap and suddenly have the interests of the US people at heart? People are people. More importantly, if you don't give a fuck about anyone else i.e. you're not interested in what is going on in Iraq, then how can you expect other people (your government) to give a fuck about your concerns. What goes around comes around. Conservatism is a double edged sword because it's great for self-interest, but when you want something back (e.g. from your government) don't expect it because they're enthused with the same conservative self-interest.

popeye1250 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:47:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The thing is Popeye, you're people.....the Iraqis are people. If your government isn't fazed by killing Iraqis, then what makes you think they'd be fazed by allowing a few Mexicans over the border? What makes you think they'll turn their emotions on like a tap and suddenly have the interests of the US people at heart? People are people. More importantly, if you don't give a fuck about anyone else i.e. you're not interested in what is going on in Iraq, then how can you expect other people (your government) to give a fuck about your concerns. What goes around comes around. Conservatism is a double edged sword because it's great for self-interest, but when you want something back (e.g. from your government) don't expect it because they're enthused with the same conservative self-interest. NG, the reason many people aren't interested or don't support this Iraq thing is because it is viewd as "Bush's War" or "The Big Oil Companies' War." As for our govt. it is an employer employee relationship, we're supposed to be the employers and people in govt are the employees.

juliaoceania -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 8:58:14 PM)
I think his issue is that you stated you did not care.

JackM1 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 9:03:00 PM)
personal opinion: this argument brings up the point of "The race card". as a jew, i SHOULD technically be able to pull the race card against anyone who is german(or a nazi), couldnt i? since most of my grandparents' families were obliterated and all. curious thing though, we dont...never, nada..ive NEVER seen someone who was jewish use the race card to their advantage in an every day setting.....but ive seen SOOO many african americans use the race card to their advantage in school, at work, on the street..oh! youre a racist! im suing you for a hate crime(which i have to say, isnt quite on the same level as our hate crime, since, though they were slaves, they werent systematically exterminated, and still had most of their family intact)! isnt this kind of like the same thing? hey, no problem with me if the race card is being used to MY people's benefit..but honestly free speach is free speach. its disgusting what some people say, and what they think, but apparently mental damage doesnt count as assult.

dcnovice -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 9:09:37 PM)
quote: ive NEVER seen someone who was jewish use the race card to their advantage in an every day setting Well, that's good. On the other hand, anyone who criticizes Israel runs the risk of being called anti-Semitic. quote: hate crime(which i have to say, isnt quite on the same level as our hate crime, since, though they were slaves, they werent systematically exterminated, and still had most of their family intact)! Please, please, please, let's not descend to competitive misery. FWIW, I believe slave families were often torn apart when members were sold to different owners.

popeye1250 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 9:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JackM1 personal opinion: this argument brings up the point of "The race card". as a jew, i SHOULD technically be able to pull the race card against anyone who is german(or a nazi), couldnt i? since most of my grandparents' families were obliterated and all. curious thing though, we dont...never, nada..ive NEVER seen someone who was jewish use the race card to their advantage in an every day setting.....but ive seen SOOO many african americans use the race card to their advantage in school, at work, on the street..oh! youre a racist! im suing you for a hate crime(which i have to say, isnt quite on the same level as our hate crime, since, though they were slaves, they werent systematically exterminated, and still had most of their family intact)! isnt this kind of like the same thing? hey, no problem with me if the race card is being used to MY people's benefit..but honestly free speach is free speach. its disgusting what some people say, and what they think, but apparently mental damage doesnt count as assult. Jackm, there's three races; Negroid, Mongoloid, Caucasoid. Which one are you?

popeye1250 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 9:17:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think his issue is that you stated you did not care. Julia, it's not that I don't care it's that I don't want my govt getting involved in the problems of foreign countries. I don't believe in Imperialism, foreign aid or Interventionism. The same wackos that are protesting against Iraq actually want us to get involved in Darfur! What a bunch of hypocrites. Didn't we learn anything from Vietnam?

juliaoceania -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 9:52:43 PM)
Well the situation in Darfur is different than Iraq. And no one wants us to fight a war there, they want us to send peace keepers in to police what is happening.

popeye1250 -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/17/2007 11:13:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Well the situation in Darfur is different than Iraq. And no one wants us to fight a war there, they want us to send peace keepers in to police what is happening. Maybe so but what in the world does that have to do with us? And if we got involved in Darfur they'd expect us to pay for everything of course. There are about 193 countries in the world, let someone else send peacekeepers. I don't want my tax dollars paying for all the above. Imperialism is very expensive. This govt needs to scale back drastically on foreign aid, and Imperialism and a lot of other things or it's going to be a bleak future for us. People don't realise (yet) that the U.S. is broke! We're so deeply in debt now that it'll take decades to get out of it.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 4:45:02 AM)
quote: A guy goes into a conference and says that Jews control everything, and that everything that people lack is because Jews are screwing them. They paint Jews as nefarious theives. They go further in stating that anyone who would attack Jewish people for these perceived flaws is blessed. They go on to talk about how to go about committing crimes against Jewish people. They advocate the burning of synagogues, they tell people that they should do this immediately! THIS is inciting violence. It is the reason why we have hate speech laws. Am I wrong but is this not exactly what Louis Farrakhan does. say. Theres the tolerance of our Muslim brothers. Incidently after one incident, the name just escapes me, attempts were made to break up the Nazi party. just remembered there was a "revolution or coup" in Bavaria. Hitler apparently expected a far more severe sentence than he actually got. In prison he wrote mein Kampf

meatcleaver -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 4:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf1020 quote: NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it. It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms. If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan. I like this guy [sm=applause.gif] As to the person who said something along the lines of a lot of good it does when they take them away? I asure you anyone tries to pull a NOLA on me and I will be taking many of them with me. Many people say such brave things, the truth is that when people break your door down in the middle of the night, it rarely happens. Time and again we see countless people going quietly to their death. It happens too often for it to be anything other than human nature. The hope that it won't be as bad as they fear and there is no one else around and the alienation of the dark hours, makes people go quietly.

JohnWarren -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 4:55:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Incidently after one incident, the name just escapes me, attempts were made to break up the Nazi party. just remembered there was a "revolution or coup" in Bavaria. Hitler apparently expected a far more severe sentence than he actually got. In prison he wrote mein Kampf It was in November of 1923 and was called "The Beer Hall Putsch." It was not an attempt to break up the Nazi Party but was an attempt by the Nazi Party to take over the government. They failed.

meatcleaver -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 4:57:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it. It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms. If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan. Popeye, I doubt the 2nd amendment would help. The chances are the Nazis would have no compunction in obtaining and using weapons while the average law abiding citizen would be disorientated by finding themselves in a lawless situation. As for the German people killing a few thousand Nazis, have you thought they might have identified with those Nazis? The situation wasn't clear cut. Germany had been humiliated, it was in dire economic trouble and it was a hot bed of revolutionaries of one sort or another. It wasn't a peaceful country in a peaceful time. To think people having guns would somehow have saved the situation is nonsense, it probably would have just speeded up the maelstrom that was to be unleashed on the world.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 5:19:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Incidently after one incident, the name just escapes me, attempts were made to break up the Nazi party. just remembered there was a "revolution or coup" in Bavaria. Hitler apparently expected a far more severe sentence than he actually got. In prison he wrote mein Kampf It was in November of 1923 and was called "The Beer Hall Putsch." It was not an attempt to break up the Nazi Party but was an attempt by the Nazi Party to take over the government. They failed. The putsch was such an attempt after Communist successes/agitation in Bavaria. The subsequent trials were intended to break the Nazis. Not sure, but Hitler may have thought he was going to be executed. Another point about Hitler by the way, Meatcleaver alludes to this, Adolf and the Nazis got into the Reichstag, (Parliament?) with significant representation, by democratic? elections. He then manoevered himself into power by "closed room " methods. Had the Nazis confined themselves to rebuilding Germany, which they actually did, and not been so rabidly anti semetic, expansionist and lesson for the US, bit late now tho', mind bendingly anti communist, they would probably be recognised as the remarkable party they actually were.

NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 5:21:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jack45 The plaque on display at Auschwitz from 1948-89 had the figure of four million. Today the same plaque reads 1.5 million casually reducing the number of deaths by 2.5 million. Not quite sure exactly what "Holocaust Denial" is but would that include what has happened at Auschwitz, that one might wonder if the 6 Million number is accurate. This Zundel was a mentor of a former Max Planck chemist Germar Rudolf, who is on trial in Germany on similar charges. When the ability for debate and examination on a particular theory or thesis is forcibly removed, one can only surmise that the theory or thesis is completely flawed. Historian David Irving was released earlier this year from an Austrian prison for similar charges. But I cannot help asking myself what sort of truth it is that requires these sanctions. --AUBERON WAUGH writing about David Irving in the London Telegraph. The above article is inaccurate. Irving wasn't jailed for challenging the numbers. He was jailed for something he claimed in 1989 i.e. his claim the holocaust is a fabrication. Irving later recanted his claim and said he was mistaken, but he had commited a crime in Austria so he was fair game for time in the big house as soon as he stepped foot back in the country - which he did in 2005 or 2006. I have read a lot around the holcaust and my conclusion is 6 million is impossible, mainly because there were not 6 million Jews living in Europe - census records tell us this. It was still an attempt to annihilate a group of people however. No one I know believes it is unreasonable to debate the number of people who were murdered.

meatcleaver -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 5:34:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jack45 The plaque on display at Auschwitz from 1948-89 had the figure of four million. Today the same plaque reads 1.5 million casually reducing the number of deaths by 2.5 million. Was this supposed to be the total number of Jews killed in the Holocaust or at Auchwitz? If I remember right and I suppose I should look it up, an estimated 1-1.5 million people were killed at Auchwitz. Jews, gays, Roma and desidents. The figures have always been disputed as I think NG pointed out, as there doesn't appear to have been 6 million Jews living in Europe and also the actual problems of logistics. However, what has never been in dispute was the aim to eliminate all Jews in Europe. One thing that always seems to be forgotten is that their was a genocide against the Roma too.

NorthernGent -> RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years (2/18/2007 5:42:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Genocide does not begin with genocide. It is the result of a chain of events. All genocide points back to one common denominator - extremists given a platform to push their views and gain support. If you nip these extremists in the bud, then there is a fair chance it will alter the chain of events and prevent genocide. the first step of genocide usually happens when one group begins to take the rights of another group of people. Therefore it is the taking of civil rights that is the precursor to genocide in my mind. That is why I am so defensive on the Bill of Rights, because in my mind that I can speak out freely against Gitmo and war, and treating people like second class citizens based on ethnicity and race is a direct result of the fact we have a Bill of Rights. It is hard to hide what you are doing in a free society. Julia, I've just seen this post, hence not replying earlier. There is a catalyst to one group taking the rights of another. The former group doesn't just spring up from nowhere and suddenly develop a wish to dominate another group. It begins with an idea.....the idea is voiced.....support is gained for the idea......then the majority group attempt ethnic cleansing. On your free society point, Germany was a free society pre 1933. His ideas and motivations were on the table. His speeches were in the public domain. He saw life as a struggle between ethnic groups - mainly the Germans and Slavs/Jews. He openly declared this, he wrote about this. His ideas were there to be taken or left - in a democracy (not some despotic police state). A "free society" will never prevent genocide because the majority group overpower the minority group. Germany is a good example of a "free society" which did not prevent genocide. The cause of this genocide was the idea and widespread support for this idea. The camps, pogroms, ghettos etc were the symptoms of a problem which had its roots in 1920s Germany i.e. democratic 1920s Germany. Everything begins with an idea/concept/thought, absolutely everything in life.

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