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Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 2:51:40 PM

thetammyjo

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I know this may start a fight -- I'll try to word what I'm thinking of as clearly as I can.

Does anyone else see a big difference between someone who identifies as "a slave" or having "a slave soul" or anything else like that and someone identifying as "someone's slave"?

As I see more and more threads where people who declare themselves to be "a slave", especially when the words they use suggest they see their own definition as superior or better than others, writing out very judgemental or black & white declarations I find myself wondering just why they are talking.

If they are "a slave" I find it rather odd that they tell anyone else what to think and declare their ideas so vehemently, even going so far as to say other's definitions and views are not "real" or "unnatural". Wouldn't "a slave" be silent on these issues or at least be careful to limit what they say only to themselves so they don't risk the wrath of free people? Shouldn't someone who identifies as "a slave" be more humble around free people -- I'm assuming that category is correct for some of us reading this forum after all.

If someone says "I'm Bob's slave" or "Mistress Kay's slave" or something like that, I see them as declaring a role identity and I'm don't find it odd that they are expressing a strong opinion. I mean, they aren't my slave so they don't need to defer to me.

I'm not saying that my feelings on this are gospel or "the truth" I just wanted to share my confusion and the general brain clicks that I go through when I see these strong declarations from folks who identify as "a slave".

I may be taking their declarations too literally. Perhaps "a slave" is really just short hand for how they feel emotionally or a prefered role or even for "someone's slave".

*shrug*

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/16/2007 2:53:18 PM >

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 3:20:46 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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a) I agree that using someones identification as a superiority card and/or putting down others perspectives "less deep/less intense/less committed/less thoughtful/less anything" is rude and fairly disgusting

b) I see nothing about the identification of a "slave" which would make it less likely for someone to do that. Just as I say doms are like anyone else, so are slaves. Slaves are just as likely to be loser wanker dumbass assholes as anyone.

Slave for me is a personal orientation, not a station, or a personality.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 2/16/2007 3:21:13 PM >

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 3:27:10 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I know this may start a fight -- I'll try to word what I'm thinking of as clearly as I can.

Does anyone else see a big difference between someone who identifies as "a slave" or having "a slave soul" or anything else like that and someone identifying as "someone's slave"?

As I see more and more threads where people who declare themselves to be "a slave", especially when the words they use suggest they see their own definition as superior or better than others, writing out very judgemental or black & white declarations I find myself wondering just why they are talking.

If they are "a slave" I find it rather odd that they tell anyone else what to think and declare their ideas so vehemently, even going so far as to say other's definitions and views are not "real" or "unnatural". Wouldn't "a slave" be silent on these issues or at least be careful to limit what they say only to themselves so they don't risk the wrath of free people? Shouldn't someone who identifies as "a slave" be more humble around free people -- I'm assuming that category is correct for some of us reading this forum after all.

If someone says "I'm Bob's slave" or "Mistress Kay's slave" or something like that, I see them as declaring a role identity and I'm don't find it odd that they are expressing a strong opinion. I mean, they aren't my slave so they don't need to defer to me.

I'm not saying that my feelings on this are gospel or "the truth" I just wanted to share my confusion and the general brain clicks that I go through when I see these strong declarations from folks who identify as "a slave".

I may be taking their declarations too literally. Perhaps "a slave" is really just short hand for how they feel emotionally or a prefered role or even for "someone's slave".
*shrug*

Okay, hell yes I like this topic! I am so and so's slave, we believe in total slavery, he can do what he wants to me,
I don't care because I am a REAL slave! He can burn me, shoot me, rape me or kill me, right? LOL
If you don't let your Master or Mistress do this to YOU, you are not a slave!
That sort of attitude? I am not sure if I consider that person a slave, or in need of serious mental help.
hehehehehe

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 3:36:16 PM

SirDominic

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Yes, there are the ones who boast about the depth of their slavery; as with anyone who needs to do this, it usually means they are actually rather insecure in their position or themselves. I tend to ignore them.

Otherwise, I so no reason for slaves not to have a strong opinion. You seem to be thinking that these are people who live a life of slavery to all, and you know that is not true in the lifestyle. Most slaves are slave to just one Master, not to anyone else. So why shouldn't they feel free to say what they want to anyone who is not their Master.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 3:44:03 PM

krikket

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From: Washington, DC Metro Area
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When I first started on this journey I had a real problem with the word "slave", although Master didn't bother me nearly as much, which even then I thought was kinda weird..lol. I'm still not sure if it was because of my upbringing or if the change I've gone through since those early days is a result of growth or maturity -- maybe a combination of all, the more I think about it. I've known many who call themselves slave or Master and I see it as their right to call themselves whatever they want. All you have to do is look on this or any lifestyle site and see the names people give themselves -- slaves, subs, pets, sluts, Mistresses and Masters fill the profiles, so I guess it's all a matter of identity or self awareness or being full of themselves.

For myself, I consider myself a sub (now and always) but have only considered myself slave to one man in the past. I was "His slave", and he was the only one who has ever called me His slave and slut, His pet, His beloved. If anyone else had called me slut or slave I probably would have wanted to punch their lights out, and calling me a pet would have just made me laugh.

cheers,
jk

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When your heart speaks take good notes.

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 4:05:12 PM

DominaSmartass

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I have also had these thoughts, Tammy Jo. I am not sure I believe that people are born slaves, I'd like to think it's a choice. Many claim to have a slave heart or soul and I cannot tell them they are wrong, it's just that I prefer the type that doesn't feel incomplete without someone to own him but rather decides to be owned because of who the owner is as a person. I certainly believe that there are people with submissive personalities, people pleasers, all different varieties of people who enjoy doing things for others and will go out of their way to. But I think this is very different than identifying as a slave when one has no master. It's like...slave to who? The universe? To me, dominant and submissive are adjectives that can be used to describe us in and of ourselves but master and slave do not exist without the relationship between the two.

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 4:47:57 PM

catize

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quote:

Shouldn't someone who identifies as "a slave" be more humble around free people -- I'm assuming that category is correct for some of us reading this forum after all.

I’m not of the belief that a ‘slave heart’ should render one speechless or lacking in opinions. (Although I really have no idea what a ‘slave heart’ is.)
If and when the time comes that the ‘slave heart’ is owned, I believe the Master/Mistress will determine the veracity of the claim.
Personally I find a strongly opinionated and/or argumentative person much easier to take (even if I don’t agree with them) than the ones who act as if they have no right to breathe. You know the ones; they apologize in advance for no reason, they ‘softly smile’ at everyone, they are so sticky-sweet I want to gag.
I find the former much less ‘holier than thou’ than the latter.

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 5:01:00 PM

Archer

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If you have a mind to research the use of Slave heart I believe the original work comes from the Butchmann's Academy website.

http://www.arizonapowerexchange.org/academy/slave.htm

Not saying I do or don't buy the whole thing but at least want to know where it may have developed from.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 8

RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 5:04:06 PM

Archer

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Now on to the OP topic.

I'm not of the opinion that a slave is meak and mild reguardless of if they are slave to X or a slave. Not all slaves have a submissive nature, some have to work very hard at that aspect of being owned. But for some reason they find the work worthwhile.
Outspoken is expected for my slave Elegant, that is the way she is required to be. That is not to say she is to be brash or disrespectfull, niether is required to be outspoken.

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 5:12:00 PM

mstrjx

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I'll slug away at this, because I'm just a slugging sort of guy.

I believe in the difference between submissive and slave. I define that difference in 'being able to allow another all manner of choices and decisions' or 'not' (some, but not all). In the books, this is shorthand for 'surrender'. I know that surrender can be partial for some, but this is my one-word deliniation. So be it.

I do not feel that submissives are any more or less than slaves. But I do see it as on a continuum of sorts. 'A' has given 80% authority/control/whatever to 'Y', but 'B' has given 100% of his/herself to 'Z'. It's a choice that people make that feels right for their situation. But this fall's into being X's slave or submissive.

Some people, for their particular circumstances, CANNOT give of themselves and/or their circumstances and/or their control in certain aspect of their lives, for valid reasons. They can only achieve, let's say, 80% of their autonomy. 1) That is OK. 2) They understand that slavery, as defined above, is not for them.

Others, even if unowned, understand that, under the right circumstances, the right owner at the right time, etc., that they CAN enter into a TPE situation. I feel that they 'can' or 'have the right to' call themselves slaves, even with an unowned status. I do not feel that they are marking themselves 'better'. I do feel that they are stating that full ownership of them is possible.

Not better. Different. It's part of knowing yourself and your limitations (or lack thereof).

It's really no different from the otherside. There are people who understand implicitly that ownership is something that is possible for them, and others who understand that they are not interested or capable in that. That's fine too.

I understand that labels are problematic if everyone is not on the same page, such as this forum. But when a person understands where they are (or their potential) in this 'world', they know what sorts of people or situations are compatible with them. A 'slave' might not be interested in a relationship with someone who cannot 'own'. Having said that, their personalities and other intangibles might click in such a way that the slave doesn't feel that TPE is necessary for that relationship, or the 'non-owner' might become inspired to find ownership more possible and/or interesting (more RIGHT for themselves).

It's all part of the journey of our understanding of ourselves and our natures.

Jeff

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 5:15:57 PM

catize

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Archer,
Thanks much for the link! I did a quick read through but will bookmark it so I can ponder the concept more thoroughly.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 11

RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 6:11:14 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
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When I started this journey, I had never heard of submissives that identified as slaves. When I joined CM, there was a thread on subs vs slaves (yea, big shocker there huh?

) and I quickly updated my profile to state I was a submissive, not a slave. I just couldn't fathom giving up complete control.

But the more I read here from some amazing ladies and amazing men, the more "aha" moments I had and realized that giving up complete control and surrendering my all was what I needed and wanted, so I took the note out of my profile that said I was a sub not a slave. But I still didn't identify as a slave mentally and emotionally (and on my CM profile) until the dominant I chose to submit to made it clear that I would be "owned".

Would I be a slave without Him? No.

As to the attitudes that are exhibited by some slaves and subs (and dominants as well) on here, well I don't care for some of the obnoxiousness and rudeness, but I just ignore them. I come here to learn, and if I have something to share or a question to ask, I will. Whether I was my Master's slave or not, I'd still display the same attitude and behaviors that I do, which is to be polite, fun, helpful where I can, and a little happy sarcasm thrown in now and then. It's just that now what I do reflects on Him as well as me.

Not sure if that's what you were looking for TammyJo.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 6:17:09 PM

ownedgirlie

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My opinion - an owned slave abides by the teachings/rules of his/her owner. An unowned slave or, a slave-heart, or however they refer to themselves, is an individual who does not yet have a Master/Mistress to submit to. They are not slaves to the masses, and do not need to stifle opinions to the "free."

Different people will experience different levels of submission along the way. If I have a pet peeve, it's the sentiment that someone who is sharing the depth of their submission must somehow be boasting. Do you only want to hear from those who are not so involved? It never fails to confuse me how one person's expression must somehow be viewed as a competition with everyone else. My submission runs deep. Does my saying so mean I am boasting? Am I saying others are not deep? Am I saying, "therefore I am better?" No, I'm not. I am sharing my experiences, as is what people do on discussion boards. That so many take things personally is the problem, in my opinion. Two years ago, my submission was not nearly what it is now. I saw others who talked about the depth of their submission and I found it fascinating. We all grow. We all start somewhere. A starting point, a midway point, a way-further-along point, are simply steps along the way. If I'm on the treadmill at the gym and can only go a half an hour, am I going to be offended by someone who goes an hour? And if so....why??

I see someone saying, "If you don't do XYZ you're not really a slave" and I think okay that's how this person has been taught. I really am unaffected by that opinion. Maybe I agree; maybe I disagree. But why get riled? What nerve must be so struck within myself for such words to incite such a reaction from within myself? If someone who doesn't know me suspects I am not what I say I am...should I be bothered by that? I'll say no. :)

It's perplexing to me anyway.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 6:32:25 PM

GeekyGirl

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I think perhaps the OP misunderstands what some people mean by "slave." To some, when they say they are a slave, it means they seek a role as a slave but at the moment are unowned. It does not mean that are they are humble or slave-like to all people...only that they seek a person to fulfill their role as "master".

Unless you're gorean, I don't understand the inclination for someone who identifies as a slave to defer to all "free people."

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 6:42:41 PM

Celeste43

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I think the difference between slave and somebody's slave, and the attitude that the first possess is why they can't identify themselves as somebody's slave. See, when they give this list of rules of what has to be done to them for them to be a slave, then they aren't submitting.

I submit to him which means it's his rules not mine, his decisions of how to have the relationship, not mine. If I was insisting the relationship went my way then I wouldn't be submitting to him, and I wouldn't be with him.

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 6:50:49 PM

hisannabelle

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i think there are a lot of people who don't feel like a slave unless they are owned by a particular person. i personally feel i am a slave regardless of whether or not i'm in a relationship - it's simply who i am. i think that might be the distinction you are looking for. but one is not necessarily better than the other; i certainly have my own ideas about what a slave is and isn't, and i'm sure that comes through in my posts, sometimes judgmentally. that doesn't make any of us -right-. it just makes us very set in our own definitions and ways, and since we're all posting from our perspective, it doesn't surprise me that that can come through. i -tend- to be deferential to others besides my dominant, but i am not necessarily deferential simply because i have a slave's heart...that personality trait in me comes out, but it's a necessary fact that to survive in the world, you have to be able to stand up for yourself, and our world isn't built in such a way where i would have the trust or comfort of sharing all of who i am in that way with everyone.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 7:35:17 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

a) I agree that using someones identification as a superiority card and/or putting down others perspectives "less deep/less intense/less committed/less thoughtful/less anything" is rude and fairly disgusting

b) I see nothing about the identification of a "slave" which would make it less likely for someone to do that. Just as I say doms are like anyone else, so are slaves. Slaves are just as likely to be loser wanker dumbass assholes as anyone.

Slave for me is a personal orientation, not a station, or a personality.

I agree that anyone can do this.

I guess, to my eyes, it seems much like a woman saying that women should stay home, have babies, be submissive to all men, wome are inferior, etc but saying that in a public forum. I mean, why isn't she at home making cookies and the next baby rather than causing a public scene with her inferior femaleness?

(not that I believe any of that, just that is read very weird to me so say one thing then do the opposite)

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 7:40:33 PM

thetammyjo

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Yes, there are the ones who boast about the depth of their slavery; as with anyone who needs to do this, it usually means they are actually rather insecure in their position or themselves. I tend to ignore them.

Otherwise, I so no reason for slaves not to have a strong opinion. You seem to be thinking that these are people who live a life of slavery to all, and you know that is not true in the lifestyle. Most slaves are slave to just one Master, not to anyone else. So why shouldn't they feel free to say what they want to anyone who is not their Master.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

No, I don't personally think that at all -- in fact, I think over my months here I have shown time and again that I'm a huge advocate of each person making good choices for him/herself and being empowered.

I'm taking about the oddness I feel when someone claims to be "a slave" (not a role, not to an individual, but just "a slave") and defines in a very narrow and rather universal way but then acts in a way that doesn't seem fit with what they say a slave is.

I'm not sure I'm being clear in what I'm reading and how I'm interpreting it.

As I said, I may simply be misunderstanding what they are saying.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 2/16/2007 7:46:45 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 18

RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 7:48:22 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

I think perhaps the OP misunderstands what some people mean by "slave." To some, when they say they are a slave, it means they seek a role as a slave but at the moment are unowned. It does not mean that are they are humble or slave-like to all people...only that they seek a person to fulfill their role as "master".

Unless you're gorean, I don't understand the inclination for someone who identifies as a slave to defer to all "free people."

I don't understand those ideas either and I'm not advocating them.

I'm just confused when someone does advocate such ideas then types stuff that seems to be the opposite of it.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to GeekyGirl)

Post #: 19

RE: Difference between slave and X's slave? - 2/16/2007 7:58:50 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I guess, to my eyes, it seems much like a woman saying that women should stay home, have babies, be submissive to all men, wome are inferior, etc but saying that in a public forum. I mean, why isn't she at home making cookies and the next baby rather than causing a public scene with her inferior femaleness?

(not that I believe any of that, just that is read very weird to me so say one thing then do the opposite)

OOOOOO I see what you mean! Ha ha, yes that is always ironically amusing. Slaves who go on and on about how slaves are so and so and so...and yet by all their proclamations and protests, they are in essence showing behavior completely opposite to what they are suggesting is to be the exemplar.

I guess it's the "activist personality" or something.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 20

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