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gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 1:18:57 PM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline

I would come to this board off and on frequently over the years. My last time I said enough of this was when in two different areas the same question was asked. One was asked about a male sub asking for more play/discipline and almost all the answers from both roles and genders were he was not this or that and just another HNG. Then a woman sub wrote the same thing in another section and all the answers were supportive and about her needing to express this to her dominant and all the legit dangers of neglect. Both of these literally happen within a day of each other.

My questions are, in this life of BDSM, D/s and M/s is how much do you think gender bias comes into play both on the boards and in real life where the men are often found more often guilty until proven innocent then women on things in this life, have you ever caught yourself in a double standard and for message board purposes maybe some of the reasons this sometimes happens is because there can be a difference in how some males write that cause this bias (more coarse language and less description at times)?

For clarification purposes, yes I know these questions are gender bias guilty already and I am not making a gross generalization. I truly believe there is significant gender bias but do not believe at all that everyone or even a majority openly behave this way, let alone all the time.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

Post #: 1

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 1:25:33 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

I'm not sure I can quantify the question you are asking- but the answer is that gender bias and stereotypes are rampant and thriving in the scene.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 2

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 3:35:11 PM

Driver1961

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

He dips His lid to an excellent statement/question... I too have these issues, like most of us would I presume.

I definitely concur with L/A too. As a Dominant /Sir I strive to have better integrity/strength for myself- with the flowon to my sub or playpartners. A part of this is to see people as equals regardless of race, literacy skills, or sexual preferences.
BDSM opens a whole different dilemma. It confronts my senses/beliefs with people that are so well respected and learned but their basic social skills/manners, or tolerance of others is lacking or even non-existant. How can I respect- let alone relate to a 'Learned Master' if he behaves in this manner.- so I make a judgement on what distance should be between us.

I meet several Sirs/Masters who amplify the respect that I believe is warranted for a Precious One- that's good, I may not invite some of them to my own home though.

I meet tramplers- a very likeable lot. (Does anyone know of a Female trampler???- prefer straight, but femme or butch- just NEVER heard of one)

Now Mistresses- An extremely diverse bunch.   A bloke gets branded a Sadist and submissive girls generally warn all others if He is not Masterly in His care, and rightly so I believe.   We are all responsible for our actions.   Many Mistresses think similarly showing strength n' Masterly skill, but a Mistress generally would never exist if her strength/desirability was 'judged' by the perceptions/wants of submissive women.

Some Female Dominants are simply Criminals that in this BDSM world find a way to amplify their hatred of men by justifying their behaviour as being strength and most desired by their subby bois. Not all professional Female Dominants fall into this category either but there appears a far larger proportion of women in this category than Dom men.

Then what of the boi?   Is a boi a man? Is a boi as 'Precious' as a sub girl?

The whole situation of BDSM is a cornucopia of conundrums. It confuses my brain if I try to effectively categorize all these types that participate in a Lifestyle that I enjoy.

Then put 'real life' into 'online' and it confuses even further- cos the 'strength' of the poster is so difficult to judge or quantify. (A couple of threads here recently- Azzfukkin- are great examples)   I find that I have to acknowledge my basic life principle that we are all on our journies but still equals.Sometimes I have to create distance- if this means leaving the boards or 'real life' associations, I do so because I return stronger, reflected and renewed.

I can fly in the eagles pack and 'call' among the squabbling turkeys but sometimes reflect upon my slip to turkeyness!

My biggest conundrum is 'How does an Albatross fly amoung the Eagles and Turkeys and remain unscathed?'

_____________________________

Dance as though nobody is watching!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 3:35:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

My questions are, in this life of BDSM, D/s and M/s is how much do you think gender bias comes into play both on the boards and in real life where the men are often found more often guilty until proven innocent then women on things in this life, have you ever caught yourself in a double standard and for message board purposes maybe some of the reasons this sometimes happens is because there can be a difference in how some males write that cause this bias (more coarse language and less description at times)?

I am less attracted to answering questions about male sub/ fem dom partnerships because of this issue. I am sure I have a gender bias, although I have often felt pity that a male sub that wants his sexual needs met and is told that he is just a do-me.

I think that this is because men and women often view sexuality differently, and when the woman is in charge she wants it her way.

Edited out some humor that probably did not translate well

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/20/2007 3:43:04 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 4

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:08:57 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

I am sure I have a gender bias, although I have often felt pity that a male sub that wants his sexual needs met and is told that he is just a do-me.

I wanted to respond to this... The reason we're often calling men "do me" is because they think nothing of writing you or inviting you to chat simply to say "will you do A, B, and C to me" rather than hello there lady, how are you, I liked these things about your profile, and I wanted to share these facts about myself as a man/human.
It is my opinion that the word submission or slavery has very little to do with any specific act we might do with one another.   So I always want to ask "what does your willingness to take [it] violently from me have to do with your submitting to me if I haven't asked you to do that for me?"
They forego the pleasantries of perhaps getting to know someone with whom they'd like to have kinky sex, and go straight for "this is what makes me hard, or this is what works for me sexually."   So, I'm like, great but shouldn't we share our names and a drink first?

That approach (stating exactly how he enjoys being done) from men is fine if I'm selling services and simply ask for his script to see if I might enjoy playing a part in it.   But if I'm not selling services, than it doesn't even come close to cutting it... Especially since most of these men aren't exactly what one would consider winners on the looks, personality, courtesy, gentleman-like behavior, and financial departments. If I feel like acting like a cheap whore, it will be because I feel that way on that day, not because random boys choose that role for me.
Hope that clarifies things a bit,    M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 2/20/2007 4:15:47 PM >

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 5

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:20:38 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I understand that, but I have seen some dommes that state over and over on their profiles that what they are seeking is a submissive that will give no thought to sexual satisfaction. I am sure this is part of the reason some of these dommes are still looking.. smiles, finding men that do not care about sexual satisfaction can be tricky.

I would not put you in that category, you have always spoken of male submissives as people with feelings, as do many dommes that come here.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 6

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:27:20 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

I've also spoken to several men who have specific interests in kink, none involving their penises or sexual interludes with women... I can't say I understand where the impetus to be owned/to serve comes from in those instances, but I suppose it isn't for me to decide. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sexual satisfaction comes from very different places for many submissive men; so I would bet those men who say "you will deny me, and keep me locked, etc" would work for the domina who wants nothing to do with his sexual relief.
Hope that makes sense, M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:32:59 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

First, let me check my equipment. Ah, still the same.

Let's face it. Men are dogs, and often assholes to boot. A really nasty, dangerous combination. Women have been talking about it for years. And you know what? Probably rightly so.

And yes, last I checked a moment ago, I am one. Here, let me check again to make sure. Whoa, don't want to get frisky with myself.

For years, I've heard the stories. And I've come to believe them. Men can't help themselves, and women don't know what to do about it. So I've done everything I can to distance myself from my own gender. For the most part it works. The other day in the office I walked in on a conversation with 3 female coworkers. They stopped what they were discussing, and I asked. At first they wouldn't talk about it, because they knew it didn't apply to me. Finally, I got them to tell me the issue. It was definitely a man/woman thing, and my response was not only correctly but truthfully NOT how a man would react. Their point was proved yet again.

From the OP, whenever there is doubt about a man's inclination, doubting him and ridiculing him might be unfair, but is probably right on the money. Men are what they are, and they happily can't help themselves.

Women are supposed to be more sincere, so they are given much more latitude. Should they be? Probably.

When 'the sexes' start acting similarly such that gross generalizations are truly invalid will be the day we can level the playing field and find these generalizations unfair. But not until. And I'm not holding my breath.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 8

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:41:36 PM

gooddogbenji

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline

I think, in a school of thought such as ours, gender bias will exist on so many levels it makes my brain hurt.

On an individual scale, each person has their preferences. I don't think I will ever submit to a man, especially if it's not in conjunction with a lady (forced bi or so) Some poly Dommes I know of have male and female subs, the female ones ranking higher in the family.

Then of course, there is the matter of it being (for many) a highly sexual outlook on life. This means that the differences in men and women come to the forefront. Men want to bang as many as possible because making babies takes 30 seconds, women want to be selective, because it takes 9 months.

Part of the learning process is recognizing patterns, and after your 50th message about fucking, you notice one. You learn that the vast majority of men just want a quick kinky fuck, unless they can leave off the kinky. Soon, all men are like that. It takes a lot of mental power to not start believing these things.

Alternately, men are used to getting the cold shoulder. So when we see a woman not only give us the cold shoulder, but also have no interest in sex, we decide they must be in it for the money. After all, what else could it be?

These stereotypes quickly get around, and many will embrace them. Some will do the opposite, and bash anyone who bashes the believers. However, remaining neutral is pretty tough in a polarized world.

Is there a solution? No. there will always be basic differences between men and women, and people will always jump to conclusions.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 9

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:48:56 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

I really liked this reply Benji... I always do a doubletake when you're serious, as you so rarely let it happen.

I don't so much mind the primitive thing that makes us get together, I just like it tempered with a little civilizing influence, perhaps from a lady/mother who loves, understands, and respects women, to help us actually close the deal... Sure we can have sex, but he'll have to take me to dinner (or cook it) first, and behave properly respectful first damn it! M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 10

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 4:54:16 PM

PsyVamp

Posts: 1026
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

Then of course, there is the matter of it being (for many) a highly sexual outlook on life. This means that the differences in men and women come to the forefront. Men want to bang as many as possible because making babies takes 30 seconds, women want to be selective, because it takes 9 months.

Part of the learning process is recognizing patterns, and after your 50th message about fucking, you notice one. You learn that the vast majority of men just want a quick kinky fuck, unless they can leave off the kinky. Soon, all men are like that. It takes a lot of mental power to not start believing these things.

Alternately, men are used to getting the cold shoulder. So when we see a woman not only give us the cold shoulder, but also have no interest in sex, we decide they must be in it for the money. After all, what else could it be?

These stereotypes quickly get around, and many will embrace them. Some will do the opposite, and bash anyone who bashes the believers. However, remaining neutral is pretty tough in a polarized world.

Is there a solution? No. there will always be basic differences between men and women, and people will always jump to conclusions.

Yours,

benji

I think you really nailed that one. Very few guys on cm write me to talk about ideas, most just want to cyber fuck so yes, after 50 (or 100 ....) messages like that I am jaded. Now I belive that not only do all men want is sex, but they can't read a profile either

Mistress Psy

_____________________________

Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive. .
Could a blue screen of death constitute being defenestrated?
~Owner of wolf~ (one of them, anyway)

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

Post #: 11

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 6:07:38 PM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

My questions are, in this life of BDSM, D/s and M/s is how much do you think gender bias comes into play both on the boards and in real life where the men are often found more often guilty until proven innocent then women on things in this life, have you ever caught yourself in a double standard and for message board purposes maybe some of the reasons this sometimes happens is because there can be a difference in how some males write that cause this bias (more coarse language and less description at times)?

Having received the attentions of both sexes, I can certainly say one is not better than the other in regards to crudeness, dubious intentions or outright game playing. Nonetheless, there seems to be a prevailing fashion for male bashing in society today, and the "BDSM" portion of it is by no means different.

I've encountered many women who, despite their poetic expressions of heartfelt interest in serving, change gears rather quickly and dissolve into the "prove yourself worthy" stratagem once past opening discourse. I am always quite happy to inform them that I am the one who will require ongoing evidence of virtue for my further interest. Many don't make it beyond that point, of course.

Adherence to cultural folkways, a rather voluptuous ego and healthy sex-based bias often makes up this too little discussed creature of double-standard in the female, who has become all too comfortable in her role as the passive object of male attention and desire. So much in fact, she has derived through it an unhealthy sense of superiority and perceived right to judge and dismiss.

Lest I forget, my response to the excellent subject of your post would not be complete without mention of the clever men that are all too willing to join in on the bashing of other men to gain acceptance. This behavior I find more abhorrent than anything. Those warm, fuzzy personal Jesus types who say all the right things and are just a phone call away if you need someone to talk to are the height of creepiness, to me.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 12

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 6:38:46 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

It would be interesting to see if one could read inquries about how to handle situations where a gender bias is typically expressed, without thinking about the gender of the person writing with the problem or query, or the person being written about as the "problem", such as in this case :

"X wrote me and the very first thing they asked me, after only writing me one line, is whether I'd like to watch on a web-cam while they _________!!! Plus, they had the nerve to send me a pic of their _____ (!), without me even requesting one. I am soooo insulted!!!"

- Try to ignore the gender of the one writing, and also the one written about - and see what people's reactions would be to the situation in question...

I know there are people here who would proclaim that, in the above scenario, their reaction in any case would "disgust" - but I think not, upon further contemplation, in many cases, anyway.

Of course, maybe that's an unfair example.

There are many situations I can imagine, where if the gender of the person writing in with the question, and the gender of the person supposedly "causing the problem" were ignored, a sexist gender-bias might well be revealed. Like in this case:

"They promised to break things off with X, if I said I became their full-time partner, and now they haven't done it, even though I've become their full-time partner 24-7, and I've been waiting for 3 months for them to do it...".

I guess maybe I think there are some situations where a gender-bias seems reasonable to me (and yes, I admit it's probably due to societal conditioning) - not many, but some.

But mostly, I think gender-bias is probably not justified (but I do think that it does depend on just what situation we are talking about).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/20/2007 6:57:41 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 13

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 6:47:23 PM

subsa

Posts: 196
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

i believe that there is just as much gender bias in the vanilla world. its just that society has been telling us that its not acceptable so its hidden better. in my short time in the lifestyle its my perception that people seem to be much more open about how they really feel and there's less of the 'political correctness' that you find in the vanilla world.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 14

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 7:52:12 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos
Having received the attentions of both sexes, I can certainly say one is not better than the other in regards to crudeness, dubious intentions or outright game playing. Nonetheless, there seems to be a prevailing fashion for male bashing in society today, and the "BDSM" portion of it is by no means different.

I didn't think the intention of this discussion was to male bash, but I suppose one could take it that way.
I think it's important to be honest about the fact that there are many differences (when generally speaking) between males and females, and I don't believe anyone has called one gender's approach superior.
The fact of the matter is that if you used Susan's above example in a random questionnaire to 1000 responders equally divided by males/females, you would find >90% of them would agree the above was done by a male, not female.

quote:

SusanofO
"X wrote me and the very first thing they asked me, after only writing me one line, is whether I'd like to watch on a web-cam while they _________!!! Plus, they had the nerve to send me a pic of their _____ (!), without me even requesting one. I am soooo insulted!!!"

Is that male bashing, or simply aknowledging that our approaches are vastly different? M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 15

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 8:06:28 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

I've encountered many women who, despite their poetic expressions of heartfelt interest in serving, change gears rather quickly and dissolve into the "prove yourself worthy" stratagem once past opening discourse. I am always quite happy to inform them that I am the one who will require ongoing evidence of virtue for my further interest. Many don't make it beyond that point, of course.

Funny, I was the opposite when seeking, I wanted them to prove they were worthy of my heartfelt service... and once I found the one who was, I gave it rather willingly and eagerly

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 16

RE: Gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 8:11:19 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

BlkTallFullfig: Well, most women I know are insulted by gestures like a man sending a pic of their naked ______ and asking her to watch him while he ______it, right out of the starting gate. My personal contention is that any guy who really seriously doesn't get that and does this to females and seriously expects their cooperation and gratitude is probably a big jerk, but -

it is probably also a very good example of where gender-bias is maybe a biologically determined (and also somewhat sociologically determined) and therefore really something that is understandable to some degree (men are more visual and immediate than women, or can definitely be moreso than women, in terms of what they decide is desirable).

My guess is if some female sent most hetero men a pic of her naked boobs and invited them to watch her masturbate, for example, that they might not be grossly offended. Yes, that was my point (and you got it).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/20/2007 8:48:01 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 17

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 8:12:26 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

I think expecting people who may identify to some degree as practitioners of BDSM to be radically different from the cultures in which they grew up is expecting a miracle.

I think miracles tend to be rare, that's part of being a miracle.

There are indeed double standards and inequalities and these affect all sexes, genders, races, ages, and almost any other category of people you might imagine. I think the best I can do is to try and see my biases and try not to universalize, try to always use myself and my experiences when I can to explain my opinions and advice.

No one is perfect, we all fail at this but then again being perfect for a mere human being might another of those miracles. They tend to be rare.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 18

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 8:17:29 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

I dont know so much that there is a gender bias as much as there is a communication bias. Granted, yes, there is a tendancy for the females to garner more of the polite and supportive communication, but I have read as many where a female subs conversation has been taken less than seriously.
It is all about how you present your argument or concern. If you make it sound serious, as if it is something you are truly concerned with, the you are going to get answers that match. If you post something that sounds like you are looking for attention or you are looking to get off to the answers, you will not get what you were looking.
It would also be an age bias thing, in that case, since the younger submissives of both genders tend to have a less formal writing style, using more slang and forming questions that dont always come across as seriously.

My 2 cents, of course
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 19

RE: gender bias in this life and these boards - 2/20/2007 8:21:09 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

Good point, I think, DiurnalVampire.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 20

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