RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands?

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BitaTruble -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 11:32:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship. Why do you assume accepting that situation is done in blindness? I see no point of second guessing the will of one's Master and then calling oneself a slave. If Himself puts me into a situation, he is the one who has all the facts, knows all the elements, understands the consequences and prepares for the worst as best he can. Shit happens, I'm aware of it, and that's the risk which I've taken on and will accept responsibility for, but I haven't done so because I'm blinded. Rather quite the opposite is true. I've done so because I see so clearly that I can and I consider my M/s relationship to be very healthy and it's long lasting and progressive. I think trust comes easily when you find someone who is so compatible and it was making sure that we were compatible that took the time. Oh, as an aside (and I don't remember who made the comment, think it was Brutal) getting into a car with someone you don't know all that well certainly can be counted as something that is relatively dangerous, but seriously, I do that .. maybe a couple of times a year with a cab driver or something, so that risk is not as frequent as putting my life in the hands of someone else day in and day out as part of an M/s couple who engage in some pretty extreme activities. I really think you're talking apples and oranges with that one. Celeste

SusanofO -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 12:30:26 PM)
Yes, the trust does go both ways. Good point, juliaoceania. I appreciate everyone's replies. Thank you. - Susan

SirDominic -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 12:53:07 PM)
Bita, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. You and those others who have disagreed with me are in a head place I believe is very unhealthy. Constantly second guessing your Master, is, of course, inappropriate. We agree there. But never questioning your Master is just as inappropriate, especially if he makes a decision that would put you in a potentially dangerous situation. To suggest that he "he is the one who has all the facts, knows all the elements, understands the consequences" is giving him a godlike status that no mere mortal deserves. There is complete trust between me and my slave, but she knows I would never put her in a situation that was potentially life threatening, like the candle/cage example sited above. If I ever got a similar notion in my noggin for some bizarre reason, I know she would have the common sense to question me about it. Being slave does not mean turning your mind off. Julia, great point about trust going both ways. I was going to bring that up, too. But now I don't need to! Namaste, Sir Dominic

agirl -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 2:08:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic If this were to happen, this is an ideal example of pure folly. On the Master's part for putting his slave in such a precarious situation, and the slave for not having a huge problem with it. This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship. Namaste, Sir Dominic I've said in other threads, and it seems to bear repeating here...I trust my Master is an imperfect being. I trust he will make mistakes. But I trust his judgment overall. So far, in nearly 3 years now, he has about a 95% accuracey rate of being dead on right in his decisions. So in my dynamic, I trust that he will always use his best judgment, and that part of his judgment includes about a 5% error rate. I accept his judgments. I trust in his wisdom. I trust he will make errors and I accept them. I trust he will correct them (when he can) if he does. I don't think that's unhealthy at all. I've been put in frightening situations before, and responded exactly as prop did. My thought was, "This is where he wants me, so this is where I will be." As a result, he knows he can count on me to do anything he asks of me. He knows if he puts me somewhere, I will stay, unless an act of nature of some other unforeseen circumstance would warrant his desire for me to escape (which we have previously discussed). I'm not sure I see the unhealthiness of that. If I were to question his actions, putting my judgment before his, then I could not have the dynamic I currently have and need. Ditto. When it's written in this way, it looks risky and, perhaps blind............ but in practice it isn't. There's an awful lot behind it. I have to trust M's judgement to relate in the way I do to him, and once or twice I have been hurt in a way that he wasn't intending, because I stay right there. It's unlikely that birds and candles would figure hugely here..........he'd prefer to fry me himself. I have a cage, and have been told to stay in it. I don't need to be padlocked into it to stay there, once told. If smoke billowed beneath my bedroom door, I WOULD leave it..........because good sense didn't leave when trust took up home... It's easy to cite extreme circumstances or hypothical ones and go green at the gills......but as much as I wouldn't want my children to hitch-hike around the country..........I also know that I did that very same thing. agirl

agirl -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 2:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Bita, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. You and those others who have disagreed with me are in a head place I believe is very unhealthy. Constantly second guessing your Master, is, of course, inappropriate. We agree there. But never questioning your Master is just as inappropriate, especially if he makes a decision that would put you in a potentially dangerous situation. To suggest that he "he is the one who has all the facts, knows all the elements, understands the consequences" is giving him a godlike status that no mere mortal deserves. There is complete trust between me and my slave, but she knows I would never put her in a situation that was potentially life threatening, like the candle/cage example sited above. If I ever got a similar notion in my noggin for some bizarre reason, I know she would have the common sense to question me about it. Being slave does not mean turning your mind off. Julia, great point about trust going both ways. I was going to bring that up, too. But now I don't need to! Namaste, Sir Dominic Isn't that the same thing?.....For your sub to have that complete trust doesn't mean that even the tiniest vestige of common-sense disappears. If you put her in the candle/bird situation, she would know you were acting out of character and a doubt would arise. She has the type of trust she has because you, most likely, have a mutual grasp of what you BOTH consider dangerous. agirl

mstrjx -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:17:03 PM)
My experiences with trust are probably different than most. That is to say, my experiences probably go counter to how most people approach potential s.o.'s. I draw trust from those around me. I am put in positions of high responsibility, in real life (the vanilla world) and otherwise. I really don't do anything to make it apparent that I'm different than anyone else, it just happens. The fact that others' judgement of me is never wrong doesn't hurt. When meeting someone new, especially in this realm, all parties know that trust is necessary for a relationship, even play, to work. But in speaking to new people, I seem to get the sort of behavior from others that trust is immediate and total. I don't ask for it; I don't mention it. I don't go into anything saying, explicitly, 'Now you know you need to trust me to do this, right?' I never have to mention the word. It just happens. I can't explain it, and I usually don't even try to. There's just something about me or the effect I have. As above though, it doesn't hurt that that initial judgement of me is never shown to be false. Jeff

BitaTruble -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:21:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Bita, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one (not quite yet, anyway). You and those others who have disagreed with me are in a head place I believe is very unhealthy. I'm afraid I can't agree to disagree on this one, Dominic because you believe you have the necessary facts to make a judgement on my head space which you call unhealthy and I'm afraid you don't. I think 'why' you don't will be come clear as I respond to the rest of your post. quote: But never questioning your Master is just as inappropriate, especially if he makes a decision that would put you in a potentially dangerous situation. Here's the thing. I asked all my questions 'before' I ever called him Master, so I'm not even sure what further questions you think I should ask. Do you tell your submissive what every scene is going to entail or do you sometimes go with the flow? If you go with the flow, how is she to know what would be dangerous and how is she to know what she should allow you to do and not do? How would she know what to question? Do you also assume that a submissive is a mind reader that will know the thoughts and parameters of every moment of every scene. (If you do tell your submissive every moment what a scene is going to entail, what do 'you' do if something goes wrong with that scene? I mean, you can't plan for the unexpected right? Shit does happen.) Don't you try to minimize the risk without taking away from the edge? Himself is no different. I mean, I'm pretty damn valuable to him and he doesn't want me damaged and I have come to know this man quite well so that I don't need to ask questions for which I already have the answers. If someone needs to question their dominant, shall I assume it's because they refused to do their homework and actually get to know the person who they were going to submit to? It's all perspective, I think. If there is a question under the sun that I didn't ask of him before we ever even played, it is moot, because I still haven't thought of it. That's how I was able to go forward with faith, not in a God, but in the man that he was and the man he has consistantly been over the past 11 years I've served him, so it was not blindness nor was it done frivolously or without thoughtful consideration and most certainly not from any form of questionable mental health. It took two years for his collar to encircle me. It took several years of r/t, 24/7 live-in before it went from a symbol of submission to one of slavery. That was not done without hundreds of thousands of questions being asked by both of us. quote: To suggest that he "he is the one who has all the facts, knows all the elements, understands the consequences" is giving him a godlike status that no mere mortal deserves. No, not godlike. I think that's your personal perception because of the fact that you view me as mental unhealthy. ::chuckles:: He's the one with facts of any given scene in which he is the planner and I'm not privy to the minutia or, even, the big picture. We like that sort of spontanity. That's all. It has nothing to do with any God-like power any more than you can plan a scene so completely that nothing will ever go wrong, neither can he, but he will do his best as I'm sure you would as well. For me, this isn't about the play part at all. It's about the fact that he is Master and I'm slave to his will. Pretty simple and not mentally unhealthy to my way of thinking. If you want to make an assumption, make an assumption that he's pretty good at what he does and that he wants me around for many years to come since he sorta likes me whole and complete. :) quote: There is complete trust between me and my slave, but she knows I would never put her in a situation that was potentially life threatening, like the candle/cage example sited above. The trust that is in my relationship is no different than the one you share with your slave. I would never assume that you would put her in a situation that was potentially life threatening, yet you assume that my Master would put me in one and further express that if I don't make that assumption as well and then question him based on that assumption that I have an unhealthy headspace? I, personally, don't see how anyone can make that leap. quote: If I ever got a similar notion in my noggin for some bizarre reason, I know she would have the common sense to question me about it. If Himself got a similar notion in his noggin, I would have the common sense to know that I didn't have the whole story and I trust him to do the right thing. quote: Being slave does not mean turning your mind off. You expect a lot from someone who you believe lives with an unhealthy head space. Either I am of sound mind and am capable of using my prior knowledge (in the form of all the questions I've already got the answers to) to adhere to the will of Himself ... or, I am in an unhealthy head space, in which case, my mind shut off long ago. ::chuckles:: You see, it's this way.. and it answers the OP's title perfectly. Someone is trustworthy enough for me to put my life in their hands... when I say so. I said so with Himself, with clarity of thought and considered reasoning. I can't imagine why someone would assume that I have an unhealthy head space because I trusted my own judgement enough to get to a point where I could do so. Celeste

SusanofO -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:21:41 PM)
*mstrjax*: Well, I seem to remember you mentioning at some point, that you are an only child, and also somewhat of a loner? I can't say exactly why, but maybe this, plus the way you express yourself, has something to do with it? I mean, you do seem to be able to focus closely on what people say, and respond to them, not just to their ideas (and I am probably not making much sense, either, but I am trying, hehe). - Susan

cjenny -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:27:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Okay, thanks for answering my question. I don't think I'd have problems doing potentially really dangerous things with a Dominant I really truly trusted (although the burning candle thing is out, at least for me). I'd have severe problems with a Dominant who honestly believed himself to be truly infallible, though - and that seems to be what some of them want submissives to believe they are. I say this due to the way I hear some react when a submissive asks what I consider a totally reasonable question (like the submissive in the burning candle scenario). I guess it's just coming down to how much a submissive (or slave) really trusts their own judgment - as far as choosing a good Dominant, not actually the Dominant's own particular judgment, in all situations. - Susan Or is it that he presents himself as APPEARING to be infallible? Those are very different things.

mstrjx -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:31:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO *mstrjax*: Well, I seem to remember you mentioning at some point, that you are an only child, and also somewhat of a loner? I can't say exactly why, but maybe this, plus the way you express yourself, has something to do with it? I mean, you do seem to be able to focus closely on what people ay, and respond to them, not just to thier ideas (and I am probably not making much sense, either, but I am trying, hehe). - Susan Hm. Yes, only child. And yes, excluding relationships (which I try to keep to one other person max) I have elevated 'loner' to an art form. You forgot Pisces (of which you should have remembered as you are one yourself). Certainly the way I interact with others has something to do about it, but even so we are in the Internet Age, where everyone knows that cautiousness is supposed to rule our lives and loves (yawn). You read in threads here where 'we' (collectively, not me personally) advise others about safety and whatnot in meeting others. Yet it doesn't happen with me that way. And thankfully so, because if I ever do meet someone who says something to the effect that 'Well, it's going to take some time to build up the trust' I swear I'll break down right there in a fit of giggles. It hasn't happened yet. Jeff

SusanofO -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/21/2007 3:40:16 PM)
Well, we Pisceans can also be somewhat disarming, so of course that must be a part of it, too, mstrjax. cjenny: Well, if he presents himself to be infallible, that's what I have a problem with, I guess. I'm not saying that wouldn't work well for some others, but I have a need to know I am dealing with someone who truly realizes they are a fallible human. Presenting himself as infallible (even though it's of course not true) would not make me feel any more "secure", although this method and approach might really work for some other submissives. I'd prefer just someone present themselves as competent. I can buy very competent, and I very much appreciate confidence, too - I just can't buy infallible and arrogant. I think this is a personality preference with me - I don't appreciate arrogant Dominants - but some people really love them, and thrive under their care. If this works for them, it's really none of my business. I define arrogance as unjustified or over-the-top confidence - it's hard to explain, but I know arrogance when I see it. There was a post from a guy here on these boards a few months ago, who had just purchased a new bullwhip. He stated he was going to figure out how to work with it in a matter of a couple of hours, and try it out on his new submissive that week-end. He was completely sure he didn't need much more practice than a couple of hours, regardless of the fact he'd never even touched a bullwhip before - that kind of guy...is what I see as arrogant (and foolish). I don't want someone touching me with a bullwhip, who isn't concerned they might need more practice than that. - Susan

DarkDreams123 -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 1:04:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic This is not putting trust in a Master, it is blindly accepting the Master's judgement, two radically different things. I cannot conceive of a more unhealthy M/s relationship. Why do you assume accepting that situation is done in blindness? I see no point of second guessing the will of one's Master and then calling oneself a slave. If Himself puts me into a situation, he is the one who has all the facts, knows all the elements, understands the consequences and prepares for the worst as best he can. Shit happens, I'm aware of it, and that's the risk which I've taken on and will accept responsibility for, but I haven't done so because I'm blinded. Rather quite the opposite is true. I've done so because I see so clearly that I can and I consider my M/s relationship to be very healthy and it's long lasting and progressive. I think trust comes easily when you find someone who is so compatible and it was making sure that we were compatible that took the time. Oh, as an aside (and I don't remember who made the comment, think it was Brutal) getting into a car with someone you don't know all that well certainly can be counted as something that is relatively dangerous, but seriously, I do that .. maybe a couple of times a year with a cab driver or something, so that risk is not as frequent as putting my life in the hands of someone else day in and day out as part of an M/s couple who engage in some pretty extreme activities. I really think you're talking apples and oranges with that one. Celeste (highlight mine) Here is the full text of what SirDominic said: quote: ORIGINAL: daddysprop247 so, say he leaves me alone in a house, bound, gagged, candles burning, bird flying about. my thoughts would not be "i trust him implicitly, therefore i know no harm will come to me"....but rather "this is what he wants to do with me. okay. such is life. i hope i serve well and that he will be proud of me when he returns." Hi Celeste, So let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that because of the knowledge you have of your Master, you trust him implicitly in every instance, regardless of the circumstances? Does your being a slave mean that you no longer have any mind or will of your own at all? If your Master commanded you to murder someone, would you do so without any thought or hesitation? I trust you are familiar with the Charles Manson case. Three women did in fact commit murder at his command. They were all three convicted with murder (as was he) and are serving their sentences today. What SirDominic and others are saying is that in their opinion, to render someone helpless in a potentially hazardous situation and then leave them unattended is just plain unsafe. I just really "don't get" all of the discussion on this matter. This is just common sense to me. I don't have to prove what a great Dominant I am by putting someone else's life at risk. I apologise if the tone of this is a bit harsh, but this is a "hot button" for me. -Dark Dreams

ownedgirlie -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 1:19:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123 So let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that because of the knowledge you have of your Master, you trust him implicitly in every instance, regardless of the circumstances? Does your being a slave mean that you no longer have any mind or will of your own at all? If your Master commanded you to murder someone, would you do so without any thought or hesitation? I know this was directed at Celeste but hey it's a public forum so I get to answer, too, lol. I think you missed the part where she said every question was asked before becoming his slave, and I would venture to guess such questions included things like whether or not he's an advocate of using slaves to murder people. I know I included that in the questions I asked my own Master. This is why for those of us who see slavery as absolute submission in all things, it is imperitive to choose wisely who we give ourselves to. To answer your inquiry about not having a mind or will of our own - I very much do have a mind of my own and I am expected to use it and use it well. As for my will, well it is to serve and please him to the very best of my ability. And in order to do so, he made damn sure I was able to trust him and able to submit to him freely, of my own will (there's that "will" word again) and without reservation before taking ownership of me. It's not like we go into this blindly. Edited to add - I do understand and respect the concern for those who are owned by careless Masters. But such is not the case for everyone, and your post came across as a bit insulting to those of us who did our homework, so to speak. Not all of us flung ourselves into a quick-collar with someone who would be reckless with us.

BitaTruble -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 1:44:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkDreams123 So let me see if I understand you. Are you saying that because of the knowledge you have of your Master, you trust him implicitly in every instance, regardless of the circumstances? That's correct. quote: Does your being a slave mean that you no longer have any mind or will of your own at all? Of course not. If I had no mind, I could hardly participate on a message forum. If I had no will of my own, then I would not be able to get out of bed in the morning, go to the bathroom when I had the need or feed myself if I were hungry. I'm pretty good at doing all three of those things. :) The difference is, if Himself comes into the bedroom and tells me to stay in bed, pee myself and eat something which I abhor, that's what I do. (Of course, bladder control isn't my strong suit anyway and I often pee myself even without the command to do so but, that's another story!) My will hasn't left me, it's just I follow His will when he decides I should because he has inspired me to do so. quote: If your Master commanded you to murder someone, would you do so without any thought or hesitation? Sorry, Dark, I don't answer hypothetical improbabilities. I find them fruitless and pointless. Wouldn't it be more productive to ask me if he has 'already' given me certain orders.. and then perhaps delve into whether or not I followed those particular orders? Get some actual history rather than try to have some sort of crystal ball of future events? The future is mutable and if you'll notice my sig line, you'll see that I'm well aware of the possibility of change. I can only speak for this moment and all the moments of my past with any sort of knowledge. Anything else is pure speculation and I just don't go there. quote: I trust you are familiar with the Charles Manson case. Three women did in fact commit murder at his command. They were all three convicted with murder (as was he) and are serving their sentences today. And?? What does that have to do with me? They made a stupid choice in who to follow and I did not. quote: What SirDominic and others are saying is that in their opinion, to render someone helpless in a potentially hazardous situation and then leave them unattended is just plain unsafe. I do lots of things which are unsafe and risky. That's part of the thrill for me. Part of the fun and part of the fear which I adore. I love the edge and the unknown. I love uncertainy. I assessed the risk, decided by reasoned logic, a fairly savvy gut instinct and the heart of a woman head over heels in love, that the benefits of being the slave of Himself outweighed the potential risks and left the rest in the hands of a man whom I've served for over a decade. quote: I just really "don't get" all of the discussion on this matter. This is just common sense to me. I don't have to prove what a great Dominant I am by putting someone else's life at risk. Neither does my Master. quote: I apologise if the tone of this is a bit harsh, but this is a "hot button" for me. -Dark Dreams I don't find your tone harsh. You had questions, you sought answers. That, to me, is one of the major purposes of this board. Might not be the answers you thought you'd get, but they're the only answers I have for you. Other people will have other answers. Me, I'm having a hell of a lot of fun and hope you are, too. Welcome to collarme. Celeste

agirl -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 4:02:04 AM)
Basically someone is trustworthy when YOU think they are. Everyone has their own way of deciding who to trust and how, and what for. If you're going to offer yourself to another person, you do it when you've got whatever level and type of trust that you need to do so; when you have no doubts. You might trust someone to deliver your baby, but not to be your climbing partner when you're attempting Everest. agirl

juliaoceania -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 6:42:37 AM)
quote: Are you saying that because of the knowledge you have of your Master, you trust him implicitly in every instance, regardless of the circumstances? Does your being a slave mean that you no longer have any mind or will of your own at all? If your Master commanded you to murder someone, would you do so without any thought or hesitation? I trust you are familiar with the Charles Manson case. Three women did in fact commit murder at his command. They were all three convicted with murder (as was he) and are serving their sentences today. You know I have not read of many examples of slaves murdering for their masters, although women in rare instances will do such things.. I find it rather troubling this is always the first and only example thrown out there.

SusanofO -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 6:50:36 AM)
I appreciate all of the responses. I should maybe mention that the people who are saying they trust their Masters implicitly have also (some of them) stated that at some point they made an intial decision to give that trust to their Masters - and that initial decision is really what my question was about. I was wondering just how people made that initial decision to trust someone - whether they trust them with every little decision from that point on, or most of them, or simply selective decisions - whether they are a submissive or a slave. agirl: I think you're right. I think each person makes their own decisions about who to trust, and we all make decisions to trust people every day - whether they are Masters or Dominants, or not. Thanks for the reply. On second thought - I guess the intital trusting question does sort of bleed into the other one about trust given on a daily basis (no pun intended). I am not sure. in any case, I wasn't trying to interrupt the flow, here - it's developed into a good thread, I think. - Susan

ownedgirlie -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 7:48:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Are you saying that because of the knowledge you have of your Master, you trust him implicitly in every instance, regardless of the circumstances? Does your being a slave mean that you no longer have any mind or will of your own at all? If your Master commanded you to murder someone, would you do so without any thought or hesitation? I trust you are familiar with the Charles Manson case. Three women did in fact commit murder at his command. They were all three convicted with murder (as was he) and are serving their sentences today. You know I have not read of many examples of slaves murdering for their masters, although women in rare instances will do such things.. I find it rather troubling this is always the first and only example thrown out there. Oh Julia, it's the latest rage down at the new local club - "And here in this special room...is the murdering slave kink demo..."

juliaoceania -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 7:52:58 AM)
LOL ownedgirlie! I was thinking that as much as this gets brought up there must be a huge problem within the BDSM community with murderous slaves. As far as that new rage... is it more of a SSC or a RACK activity?

SirDominic -> RE: When is someone is trustworthy enough to put your life in their hands? (2/22/2007 8:08:04 AM)
Bita, I think that the fact that you have had this relationship for over ten years, and are still hale and hearty is an important factor I didn't give enough weight to. When one is in a relationship for that amount of time, a rapport is built up, and a level of trust which is based on the experiences of your relationship. You obviously have a mind and a will of your own, as your posts on this site show. My point was that you have stated that your mind and will disappear when it comes to your Master. I still believe this is an unhealthy situation. Maybe not necessarily so in every person's situation, but as an overall concept it is sound. Any time someone completely becomes under the total power of another, there is the potential for a dangerous situation to develop. Much as I detest the Manson analogy, those were women who thought they were making a good choice, too. You yourself put your opinions in doubt by fluffing off DarkDreams question about your Master telling you to murder someone. Let's tone it down and simply say what if he asked you to do something illegal that could end up with a jail sentence if caught. Your ducking this question does not serve your argument well. It's not, would he ever actually ask such a thing, the question is what would you do if he did ask it of you. Yes it is a hypothetical; that does not make it an invalid question. What I guess this boils down to for me is what often happens when a generalization is made on these forums. There are always some who will say it isn't true for them, hence the generalization is false. That does not follow. There will always be exceptions to the rule. It doesn't make the generalization false overall. Namaste, Sir Dominic p.s. You don't have to agree for us to agree to disagree. I say that as a joke!

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