Punishment vs. Nurturing (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:16:12 AM)

Submissives and people in general are a lot like children.  Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad.

If one wants a happy well behaved submissive, be proactive.  A kind word while you caress her hair when you see she has done some small thing well will go a VERY long way, far longer than any negative punishment.

A quick swat on the ass to punish for negative behavior is only useful if one has the skills to use it effectively.  Punish quickly and move both of you BACK to positive things and the related rewards for good behavior.   That is effective because YOU are not dwelling on the negative and you ARE back to dwelling on the positive. 

This is FAR easier said than done at times, it is something I have only recently become somewhat skilled at.  Working with a troublesome submissive, just like a troublesome child, makes it all the more hard.  Just keep one thing in mind.  It is the attention they crave, the emotional drama/turmoil/etc that they are used to feeding off of and breaking that pattern requires YOUR discipline.

Don't make elaborate rituals around corner time or removing affection because that is what she THINKS she craves, even if she doesn't know it.  Instead make it boring and strip as much drama and guilt from the process as possible.  If you can, sometimes ignoring bad behavior, especially if you KNOW she is doing her "bad girl" pattern to get negative attention is the most powerful thing  you can do.  Start looking for tiny good things to give her positive reinforcement over and don't overreward, if you can you don't even want her to notice what you are doing.  If she is picking a fight, ignore it, or go out for lunch, or go grocery shopping for a single item, but put space between you or at least change the venue.

When you get back, tell her how nice she looks, or even say "I saw a beautiful garden I never noticed, lets take a walk so I can show you"

Before anyone screams, yes this is my opinion, no it won't work for everyone so if it didn't work for you, it doesn't invalidate what I wrote.  Hope someone finds it useful.



jadein -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:21:12 AM)

Although I don't always like being equated to a child ... *laughs* I am a self proclaimed babygirl/little girl .... So I do completly agree with you.  I know that I act out OFTEN to get attention.  Drives my husband insane. 



CrazyC -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:26:52 AM)

Fair warning....your going to get flack for calling us children. That said. Where does the talking like two adults come in? Or working out diffrences?



Sunshine119 -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:27:23 AM)

Kudos for a great post Michael.  There are people into the drama/tumoil etc and no matter what you do their behavior will never change.  Some people live off the drama alone, are addicted to it and are convinced they will never get what they want without it. 

I meet too many drama queens (both male and female) through my work, so I want my home to be happy and peaceful.  For me, at least, a kind word or casual comment about a personal preference from my dominant is all that is necessary for those desires to become realities.  He tells me regularly that I anticipate his wants....but it is only because I love to please...and I listen. He is appreciative of my attention, which only causes me to try harder to please him.

In our home, "punishment" is not punishment at all, but only me being a bad girl so that he can tie me up, whip my ass and torture my body....for the enjoyment of us both.

Sunshine



SimplyMichael -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:29:32 AM)

I said that submissives are a LOT like children, which isn't the same as saying they are the same.  Adults are much harder to "parent" than a child is.  The biggest reason is that their issues are much deeper, more subtle, and they are much cleverer at getting their needs met than a child is.  Plus with a child, it is a lot easier to just say "because I am the grownup, THAT'S why!"  With an adult, they can just up and leave, they can remove their consent, etc.

So, while the techniques are quite similar, the complexities are not.  Controlling a submissive and retraining or reinforcing her behavior is very much harder.

CrazyC, I agree but relationships were not the subject of this post.  I was addressing all the recent posts about punishment.  Talking about issues and dealing with them as adults is important, but isn't what this thread is about.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:40:04 AM)

My Master did a pretty good job of teaching me that attention coming from negative behavior is not the kind of attention I want. 

Then again if I pick a fight and he ends the conversation as a result, he's not going to come back talking about gardens.  He'll ask where my head is, and am I going to tell him what's bugging me now?  And when I do, he'll tell me he is pleased that I was able to calm myself, and then I feel heard and all is well.  Haven't picked a fight in ages though, as I've learned there is no need.

If I feel in need of attention, I can always adjust my own behavior by doing something that really makes him happy.  But there's also the case that just because I want attention at a given time, doesn't mean I'm going to get it.

I understand the point of the OP to mean that positive reinforcement can carry a relationship a lot farther than negative, and I agree with that.  While there is a time & place for negative, if it's the driving force, I can't imagine anyone in the relationship being very fulfilled by it.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:45:07 AM)

ownedgirlie,
 
Thanks for the great post!  I didn't mean to imply that my OP was the only way.  I was trying to show why the emphasis on punishment is self-defeating.
 
CrazyC was speaking of what you wrote. 
 
quote:

  Haven't picked a fight in ages though, as I've learned there is no need.


Thanks for this, as I think done well, a dominant CAN really change that dynamic for the better but it does take two!



toservez -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:51:16 AM)

I agree very much with the general thought of the post but while I do not want to make my comment about the phrase subs are like children, I do think there is a gross and false generalization there about submissives wanting attention. Personally I feel that is quite wrong in how it is worded. To me I would say in order to maintain the level of submissiveness the submissive and/or dominant wants requires conscious and consistent effort by both parties.

Being submissive and living in a significant power exchange relationship are two different things. Part of being able to live in a power exchange relationship is about discipline and all other things within that relationship that show/feel us that power exchange. To live day to day and not acknowledge this dynamic by just assuming doing nothing is a normal thing that will cause a submissive to go into a territory where in order to keep their mindset in the proper place will act out so it can be dealt with and as Michaels wrote nicely, consistent and positive is a great way for that not to happen.

As a slave I want to know my master is happy and pleased and I know where we stand on most things. I get anxiety in grey things. Too much grey is not good. I often see the words childlike or submissive are really about wanting control and I find there to be inaccurate stereotypes. It is not about control it is about not wanting ambiguity in our life. It is not about wanting attention it is about the need to feel the power exchange in some way for our mindset.

Over neediness and craving attention are things left up to individual personalities and issues that can be in people of all roles and genders.



GeekyGirl -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:55:26 AM)

Wow, I couldn't agree with you (OP) more. I am VERY like a child, and I know in ways I see my dominant as the father I never had...and because my real father left, I place those expectations and desires of attention upon my Dom.

This was the huge issue I had with my most current ex. He wasn't overly attentive when we were apart (which was most of the time since he was 3hrs away.) He would go days without calling or  fail to comment on the often lengthy daily journals I sent him, etc. Then I would start acting melodramatic to get his attention. I turned every issue into a HUGE DEAL that required his attention ("OMG, I stubbed my toe/got reprimanded at work/had an argumetn with mom/broke a plate/whatever. I need you to comfort me!")  When he didn't immediately give me attention, I made the drama worse. ("OMG you don't even care about my problems"). Drama became worse, now we're arguing but it's ok cause he's talking to me. He was focused on me. It didn't matter why.

I didn't realize I was doing it on purpose, but I was. He'd get angry, punish me by giving me less attention, I'd act even worse, etc. Vicious cycle. And all he really had to do was prevent the problem to begin with by giving me small doses of daily attention, example "I read your journal, we'll talk about the details this weekend" "I enjoyed the pictures you sent me" "I don't have time to talk today but I hope you had a good day and we'll talk tomorrow" etc.

The absence of such little things was the downfall. The sad part is that when we were physically together (usually every other weekend) we did not argue or get into dramatic discussions. Why? Because with me there, I got my attention needs met by little looks he gave me, a gentle pat on the head, a kind word here and there, a pleasant swat on the ass, an unexpected kiss etc. I didn't have to act like a moron for him to notice me.

Now I've briefly gone back to the relationship (we've been back "together" since sunday), the same issues are popping up. I know he's busy, so I don't pester him...I send him a yahoo message when he gets online, just saying " hope you had a good day, and I'll talk to you later" and send him an email telling him about my day. Does he return my email or my message? Nope.Hell, a one line reply on yahoo would have been just fine. "Yes, I had a good day...I'll call you tomorrow" would have sufficed. Seems like a little thing but it's hurt my feelings...and of course, when I came home from work this morning and saw he didn't respond, I ended up writing him a 2 page long drama-filled email which will probably result in him backing out of the relationship again.

Anyways, sorry to ramble on your thread,  SimplyMichael...it just hit a cord with me because it is exactly the issue I am going through right now which is causing me so much heartbreak. He just doesn't realize how much the smallest look from him, the shortest word, the slightest compliment sends me soaring and makes me want to do anything to please him...and the lack of such things plummets me into depression and makes me desperate to do something, anything for his attention.

Thanks for the great thread.



KaineD -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 8:59:37 AM)

I'd hate to have a submissive who purposely acted badly to get a punishment.  I'd hope to have a submissive where I can have a balance.  She'd behave well, and I'd punish her fairly regularly anyway.  Or something.  I have alot to learn about this stuff.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:03:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

ownedgirlie,
 
Thanks for the great post!  I didn't mean to imply that my OP was the only way.  I was trying to show why the emphasis on punishment is self-defeating.
 
CrazyC was speaking of what you wrote. 
 
quote:

  Haven't picked a fight in ages though, as I've learned there is no need.


Thanks for this, as I think done well, a dominant CAN really change that dynamic for the better but it does take two!


You're welcome, Michael, and you made it clear in your post that you didn't think yours is the only way.

And I agee, the dominant CAN change the dynamic if the submissive is willing to follow.  I had some difficult learning to do in the early days and I'm grateful for his determination.  Things flow quite smoothly now. 



GeekyGirl -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:08:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KaineD

I'd hate to have a submissive who purposely acted badly to get a punishment.  I'd hope to have a submissive where I can have a balance.  She'd behave well, and I'd punish her fairly regularly anyway.  Or something.  I have alot to learn about this stuff.


That's the thing...it's not really on purpose. I've done it a long time without realizing I was doing it. It's a subconscious act.

In my case, I wasn't acting bad to get "punished" in a physical way because he did not employ physical punishment (punishment usually meant not talking to him for a week), but more to get attention (because he would spend an hour bitching at me before putting the punishment into effect, and it was one of the only times I could get him to stay on the phone with me for that long.) It was about causing drama.



juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:35:05 AM)

quote:

Submissives and people in general are a lot like children.  Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad


Not all submissives are like this, some of us believe that we can separate needs from wants. Personally speaking I would leave a relationship which did not meet my needs instead of acting in a way that was beneath me.


As for the rest, my Daddy would agree, it is much more useful to give positive reinforcement rather than punishment and it secures the power dynamic in a way that gives pleasure to both people if done correctly.



Cuffkinks -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:43:46 AM)

Excellent thread. Michael and girlie, you both make some very good points. Michael, I agree with just about everything you said. I personally wouldn't want a submissive that feels she has to act out just to get attention. The same can be said for punishment. I have no problem whatsoever dishing out punishment when it is deserved. Fortunately, My little girl understands and was already of this mindset before we met. I have told her many times that..."Anything may be possible with a proper request." And she has no problem asking for attention if she needs more. I do pay a lot of attention to her. I feel that a Dominant should pay much attention to their sub. ( I know...DUH!) The same can be said for punishment. My little girl has properly asked to feel My belt or My hand. She is very good about this and always asks respectfully.
How could I possibly turn down such a request? <smile>
  Anyway, I'm getting off subject here. Sorry.
  I did meet a sub in the past who after a long distance relationship, I finally went to meet. When we were face to face, she was a total brat. I knew what she was doing. She was acting out to see how much she could get away with and trying to provoke Me into some punishment. I chose (As Michael mentioned) to just ignore the bad behavior. This infuriated her and she carried on and on. Needless to say, it didn't work.
  As a Dominant, We must be the voice of reason, and the cooler head that prevails. Otherwise, aren't We being topped from the bottom? I personally, will have none of that.



SirDominic -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:44:03 AM)

Most submissives need a lot of attention, whether they get it from negative reinforcement or not. It's part of being a Dom. The trick with the negative reinforcement types is to find punishments they actually hate. If she loves a good whipping, that is hardly a useful punishment for bad behavior.

I'm not sure I could agree, Michael, with the concept of just ignoring her bad behavior (although I realize you said to "sometimes" ignore bad behavior". Better advice is to show you are completely unimpressed by it. Make fun of any drama she comes up with. It CAN be similar to dealing with children. If every time they pitch a fit for attention and the adult comes running, the kid will learn to expect that. But if you make fun of their little tantrum, that really throws them; they don't know how to respond.

Couldn't agree more with the idea of trying to switch her thinking from negative reinforcement to positive over time. In the long run, this will save a whole lot of work on your part!

Namaste, Sir Dominic



canupleaseme -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 9:50:01 AM)

I can certainly see your point in a way about aspects being childlike.  Being a parent has certainly geared me to be a good well boundaried and effective mistress.  I wont take whining or bad behaviour.  I always praise good behaviour or a job well done. And my boy is always told when I am proud of something he has done.  I found that by taking a more posotive approach with both parenthood and bdsm I achieve better results [:)]



lonlyrossInNeed -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 10:04:06 AM)

I have to agree i know at times
when i am with a Partner and when i have been being considered as a Pet to someone special i do act out at times just for the Atention .

ross.g



Squeakers -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 10:30:03 AM)

    Nicely done Michael.    The thread to me describes the reality of adult interactions in the lifestyle versus those who skip on the edge of fantasy.  



SusanofO -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 10:37:27 AM)

Nice post. I know personally, I seem to repsond much better to positive re-inforcement. Sometimes I suppose, a true punishment might be justified, but rampant, constant negativity (or out-right cruelty) as far as modifying undesireable behavior isn't very motivating (to me).

- Susan



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing (2/23/2007 11:15:05 AM)

Hello. =)
 
 
Although there have been specific instances when was a parent/child flavor to how we relate, most of the time it's more "adult", with my owner delegating responsibilities and duties to me, and I'm expected to carry them out. Not to say that submissives feeling childlike is a bad thing, it's just not what I can relate to. Maybe boss/subordinate would be a better definition for us right now.
 
Then again, we are both very new to the whole O/s concept, the relationship itself is still a work-in-progress. My owner is more concerned with me getting my duties taken care of then the occasional cranky tone. If one of my remarks slips past the accepted level of respect, he'll just warn me to watch my tone and that usually takes care of things. We haven't really discussed punishment in great depth that much. If I fail one of his orders, he'll give me one chance to explain why. If the reason isn't good enough, I get a combination lecture/pep talk, lol. " I expect better from you, you're capable and intelligent, I don't demand anything from you that I know you can't accomplish, etc." It's working well so far. I hate disappointing him, and I know he has my best interests at heart. I don't know... is that a nurturing punishment? lol
 
Cheers,
Stella



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