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Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing to find - 2/28/2007 12:27:42 AM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		Yeah, I know that there are the "usual" responses to this sort of thing, but I thought I'd post it regardless to see what kinds of commentary and discussions this might bring up.

Here's the situation. I'm what I often refer to as a service submissive, as I find a great deal of my pleasure from being useful to the woman to whom I end up pledging myself. That presents the basic background of me, but as I've stated in other threads, one of the problems is that because of the baggage that comes with being a "service" submissive, women automatically assume that means that THAT is all that a submissive of my ilk requires in a relationship. It's usually not, and I often find myself in weird situations based on expectations or lack of expectations on another's part, but that's really not what this post is about, so I'm not sure why I'm digressing.

What is part of the concern is that like most people who have more than one desire in a relationship, control is usually a strong factor in whether or not a relationship can work for me. That doesn't mean micromanaging, or anything like that, but a definite sense that the woman in my life is the one actually in charge and calling the shots. For some reason I don't seem to attract that. I attract women who claim dominance and a need for someone like me, and then I get treated as a really good, close personal friend who happens to be submissive. Several times in the past, I've negotiated a slave contract with a woman who was going to be setting up control over me, only to then turn around and indicate that she is really only interested in me to be her service slave ("cleaning the house, etc.") because she gets her other "needs" met by other submissives who are more interested in "that" sort of thing.

In the past, I thought maybe I was giving off the wrong signals or not being communicative enough. So I turned into someone who is pretty blunt about what floats my boat in this type of relationship, but it's like I'm not really heard, that people tend to hear things with a noise filter on so that the message comes through stating that I must not be looking for control and end up in that sort of situation again.

This isn't meant as a gripe, but more of a thought to inquire if there are others who find themselves in this sort of situation. I sometimes wonder if this has more to do with me having very little actual "play" experience in the bdsm community because almost always I've been snatched up as soon as I started looking for a potential owner, so my relationships have been few but long. It's almost as if I feel that I have no experience at all, yet the women I encounter seem to perceive me to have a lot more experience at these relationships (in real life, not online) than I really feel I do.

A couple of times I've been matched with someone that others in the community have told me are great trainers of slaves, but I never actually get trained. I'm somewhat expected to already know what I'm doing, and if I don't make the grade, I end up getting tossed out an airlock.


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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 4:00:35 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

Here's the situation. I'm what I often refer to as a service submissive, as I find a great deal of my pleasure from being useful to the woman to whom I end up pledging myself. That presents the basic background of me, but as I've stated in other threads, one of the problems is that because of the baggage that comes with being a "service" submissive, women automatically assume that means that THAT is all that a submissive of my ilk requires in a relationship. It's usually not, and I often find myself in weird situations based on expectations or lack of expectations on another's part, but that's really not what this post is about, so I'm not sure why I'm digressing.

 
I realise this isn't entirely your gripe in this post ... but by crikey it's one of mine!  I think the great 'service submissive' label has done male submissives a great disservice and it does my head in everytime I hear an apparent fem dom complaining that a 'service submissive' dared expect something in return.  A submissive is a submissive is a submissive!  Whether his/her bent is service or getting a jolly good rodgering or sorting marbles for my entertainment ... the inherent need is the same ... to be controlled.  I feel for you ...
 
Drop the 'service sub' label .. and be who you truely are .. .a submissive.


< Message edited by Jasmyn -- 2/28/2007 4:02:20 AM >

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 4:07:42 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Sarbonn,
 
I won't even pretend to be able to speak for other female dominants, but for me it doesn't matter how much "experience" a sub/slave has in the lifestyle. I treat them all like newbies at my house... because that's what they are to me. One may have been deeply involved in the lifestyle for decades, but they have never served me and mine so I put no merit in their past. But I do understand what you are talking about, you are well spoken and educated in the lifestyle and I can see where others would take that to mean that you have plenty of experience and don't see any point in "training" you. But to toss someone aside because they didn't meet up with our expectations right out of the box... I don't get that, I know it happens, I just don't get it.
 
It takes an amazing amount of time and patience to train someone, and when you do you are only able to train them to your personal likes and dislikes. The exception to that would be in "playing" and even then you are only going to train them in the areas you personally prefer.
 
Ok, rambling... sorry.
 
I can understand the "close personal friend" thing... believe me, been there, got the shirt. Maybe you just haven't met up with the right one? I know how that sounds, but if experience has taught me anything it's that you don't really know what (or who) you want until it finds you.
 
It's early and I'm half asleep so I doubt this made a lot of sense, but I tried.
 
Jewel

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 4:12:20 AM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Tricky!

Yes it is pretty common for relationships with maids or service submissives to turn into vanilla friendships.

Some ideas (hope this is not the usual pat advice!)

1)  Do not call yourself a service submissive - the label seems to be sticking when you want to be much more than that

2) If Mistress does not lust after you from the outset, it probably will not grow over time.  Try to find a Mistress with the hots for you (easier said than done I know). 

3)  You might only be attracted to Dommes who don't lust after you but - as your experience shows - they have their playful BDSM relationships with other people. 

4)  Its a fallacy that dominants feel dominant all the time.  You need to bring out her desire to dominate you.  Figure out what pushes her buttons and makes her keen to play with you.  What turns on her evil imagination?

5)  Its also a fallacy that submissives magically feel submissive all the time with no effort by the Dominant.  Tell your Domme that you crave structure, rules and overt control to feel submissive. Ask her to articulate her expectations and enforce the authority gradient between you.

6) When you feel the relationship drifting vanilla, tell her.  We find that going out to a BDSM club or party puts us back in the D/s headspace.  We also set aside fixed times as our private play time and do not let work, family, travel etc encroach on our private play time



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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 5:55:40 AM   
SCDommie


Posts: 176
Joined: 1/24/2007
Status: offline 		In my opinion, I think you are limiting yourself to service. You should try and open yourself up to try new things so that you can find a Domme who will appreciate you for you.
If you were to come to me, and say I am a Domestic slave, please use me, I would.  If you were to come to me and ask me to train you to be my submissive, I would have to start asking questions and finding out your qualifications.
Right now, you are digging yourself into a hole  as a service slave. I would try to find someone to train me their way, and not your way.

Respectfully,

SCD

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 7:04:56 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne



2) If Mistress does not lust after you from the outset, it probably will not grow over time.  Try to find a Mistress with the hots for you (easier said than done I know). 





I think this is the biggest one!  Service subs seek relationships often in this timeline:

Friends --- > Service --- > Romance/Lust

Instead of:

Romance/Lust ----> Friends -----> Service

Of course, you can become friends with someone early on and still have a lustful relationship.  But if a submissive thinks that through service he can bond with a femdom and it will evolve into a fully romantic and/or sexual relationship, he's probably going to be disappointed.  If a woman sees you from the onset as a "friend" and a "service sub" that's all it will amount to - she will be spending her lustful, playful time with other men.

I think if the relationship lacks a sense of romance, intimacy, and sexual attraction (unless both partners don't want sexuality), it won't evolve into a play relationship but will remain forever in a "service" stage.

Akasha


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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 7:05:04 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

In the past, I thought maybe I was giving off the wrong signals or not being communicative enough. So I turned into someone who is pretty blunt about what floats my boat in this type of relationship, but it's like I'm not really heard, that people tend to hear things with a noise filter on so that the message comes through stating that I must not be looking for control and end up in that sort of situation again.


What do you do when things don't match what you've negotiated?

I personally think that in the beginning of a relationship you should set aside time to evaluate things. As the time passes (years usually) I hope my slave can just know he can talk to me and that I can just ask and get an honest answer.

quote:


This isn't meant as a gripe, but more of a thought to inquire if there are others who find themselves in this sort of situation. I sometimes wonder if this has more to do with me having very little actual "play" experience in the bdsm community because almost always I've been snatched up as soon as I started looking for a potential owner, so my relationships have been few but long. It's almost as if I feel that I have no experience at all, yet the women I encounter seem to perceive me to have a lot more experience at these relationships (in real life, not online) than I really feel I do.


Have you considered getting into the community (munches, workshops, things like that) and not say you are looking for someone? Just go to get information, talk about things, and play? If someone says "hey, want to pair up" do you think you can say "sure, for this one scene" but not for longer?

quote:


A couple of times I've been matched with someone that others in the community have told me are great trainers of slaves, but I never actually get trained. I'm somewhat expected to already know what I'm doing, and if I don't make the grade, I end up getting tossed out an airlock.



When you say there are trainers, what do you expect from that relationship?

I ask as someone who does train. When I take on a trainee I have clearly expectations and a focused contract -- those expectations do not include us continuing beyond the program though we might decide to do so. Most people I've trained move on to other relationships and getting more into the community -- that makes me feel great, like a techer or a parent who sees someone succeed even if I don't directly benefit from it.

But many people saying they are training when they are really building a relationship or trying out a relationship with fewer responsiblities.

What do you want when you want training? When you can answer that, communicate that, negotiate that and then stand up for what you've negotiated, then you might find it.

I know it sucks to try and try, to think you have gotten what you were looking for then be basically slapped (non-consciously) in the face by the other person. I also know that you are a writer, littlesarbon, so you know that sometimes you just have to make yourself keep working on a project and try new things. It suggests to me that you will succeed but it still sucks when things don't work out as we like or need.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 7:46:06 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I agree with the thread consensus. By presenting yourself as a "service submissive," you may very well doom your chances for Romance and a sexual - D/S connection.

On the positive side of being a service sub, I once was a maid for a FEMDOM for about three months, but unlike the situation you describe, it was highly kinked up and featured very involved controls, expectations, and rules. (Dress, eye contact restrictions, corporal punishment, bondage, butt plugs.) From my end I did heavy duty maid work with great enthusiasm. (I do like to work.)

The above relationship was quite "slavey" in the sense that the rules, roles, and expectations were very set and unyeilding. A deep personal relationship was just not going to happen, though. In fact, when I stopped being her maid, she never wanted to see me again --- partly because of how I left her and partly because she didn't want to know me in any way other than as her maid-slave.

Anway, if you are not getting what you want in a D/S relationship, you should get out of it. Flip this around and I say, before you enter into a D/S relationship, make sure you are getting what you want. Don't let the ideas that malesubs are a dime a dozen, malesubs are "do-me" only, or that you are only submissive by revolving around her get in the way of standing up for yourself.

If you do not stand up for yourself, you won't be treated with respect --- which is basically what your complaint is.


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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 9:03:19 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Sarbonn,

As someone with a passing familiarity with Domina, who ran your local group for years, I cannot believe that there are not a long line of takers for a reasonably attractive, stable, sane submissive male who "seems" to truly be interested in service.  In fact, I think the line should be quite long of people who would get into catfights almost for a "real" male submissive who understands that a Domme is more than a "fetish delivery device"!

That said, do you get up to Sacramento or SF?  What have you found the women you have been exposed to lacked?  Have you or would you consider serving a man in a non sexual role?  I am curious for a host of reasons.

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 10:32:38 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

As someone with a passing familiarity with Domina, who ran your local group for years, I cannot believe that there are not a long line of takers for a reasonably attractive, stable, sane submissive male who "seems" to truly be interested in service.  In fact, I think the line should be quite long of people who would get into catfights almost for a "real" male submissive who understands that a Domme is more than a "fetish delivery device"!


I'm not sure I'd get into a cat fight, I'm fairly passive in my old age... but I might hire someone to do it for me!! lmao
 
Seriously, this is my thinking as well. I've worship (well, ok... lusted) after this one for a very long time as I'm sure many others here have so maybe it isn't that there isn't a long line... maybe the line is too overwhelming?
 
Jewel



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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 10:46:03 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		The trick is to take control is a manner in which she doesn't relize until she is hooked...YOU can't properly train to suite your needs unless you have total control..of courses as always just an ol" masters views on the subject...bounty

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 12:58:19 PM   
MistressDolly


Posts: 917
Joined: 8/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn


Here's the situation. I'm what I often refer to as a service submissive, as I find a great deal of my pleasure from being useful to the woman to whom I end up pledging myself. That presents the basic background of me, but as I've stated in other threads, one of the problems is that because of the baggage that comes with being a "service" submissive, women automatically assume that means that THAT is all that a submissive of my ilk requires in a relationship. It's usually not, and I often find myself in weird situations based on expectations or lack of expectations on another's part, but that's really not what this post is about, so I'm not sure why I'm digressing.

What is part of the concern is that like most people who have more than one desire in a relationship, control is usually a strong factor in whether or not a relationship can work for me. That doesn't mean micromanaging, or anything like that, but a definite sense that the woman in my life is the one actually in charge and calling the shots. For some reason I don't seem to attract that. I attract women who claim dominance and a need for someone like me, and then I get treated as a really good, close personal friend who happens to be submissive.

In the past, I thought maybe I was giving off the wrong signals or not being communicative enough. So I turned into someone who is pretty blunt about what floats my boat in this type of relationship, but it's like I'm not really heard, that people tend to hear things with a noise filter on so that the message comes through stating that I must not be looking for control and end up in that sort of situation again.


Sounds like you need a dominant woman who not only values service submissives, but one who values controlling submissives, as well.    It must be easy to find a dominant woman happy to use your services and harder to find a dominant woman who will get involved,  and take the time, energy and effort necessary to control you.  Are you upfront and precise regarding the level of control you need and the specific ways the two of you can accomplish this?  

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 5:09:35 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Not being a male submissive there is another issue.  Local scenes take on the flavor of those who run them.  I have another question for you.  Regardless of relationship status, is there ANY female dominant in your area you would love to serve?  If not, perhaps it isn't you at all, but that the local scene culture isn't one that you can relate to. 

I am fairly good judge of slavemeat, even men, and you are at least a few cuts above average if not a LOT above.  Perhaps create a profile listing your city as San Francisco and or starting to attend some of the various fem domme events in Sacramento or SF. 

As I am sure the women here can attest to, many men talk a better game than they deliver.  Show up and SERVE at an event, show them that the only thing on your mind isn't holding a toilet brush while 3 18 year old hotties in latex have sex inches from your face and again, I think your dance card will fill right up.

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 2/28/2007 7:12:30 PM   
Smythe


Posts: 369
Joined: 12/31/2005
Status: offline

You two smart women are right on target here. Forgetting for the moment those women who want service only, a DS relationship is foremost a relationship. There's gotta be attraction and a sense that the relationship meets both people's needs, whatever they might be. If the service thing works out it's like a huge bonus.

In my own relationship, I have been most unsatisfied with the service aspect, but if there is attraction and a strong relationship the service thing can most likely work out. It is just difficult to go in the other direction. I tried that and ended up well served but bored.

Smythe




quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsCfromMelbourne



2) If Mistress does not lust after you from the outset, it probably will not grow over time. Try to find a Mistress with the hots for you (easier said than done I know).





I think this is the biggest one! Service subs seek relationships often in this timeline:

Friends --- > Service --- > Romance/Lust

Instead of:

Romance/Lust ----> Friends -----> Service

* snipped *

I think if the relationship lacks a sense of romance, intimacy, and sexual attraction (unless both partners don't want sexuality), it won't evolve into a play relationship but will remain forever in a "service" stage.

Akasha





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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 8:19:59 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		When getting to know your potential domina, do you look at her with lust and desire?   Does she look at you with lust and desire?    Do you get horny at the thought of working all day for her than being used sexually by her after all of that hard work?
If you don't feel and express attraction, and you don't get that feeling from her, all you will likely ever be is service a submissive...   Believe me when I say I have the highest regard for a man who would slave for me all day, but I would have zero use for him if he didn't have lust in his eyes when looking at me.     Hope that makes some sense.    M

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 8:46:52 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Do you get horny at the thought of working all day for her than being used sexually by her after all of that hard work?


For me, service itself is not erotic. Its just me doing something for another person I either like or am involved with. When I clean my own home, do a favor for my father, or do something servicey for my Mistress (like taking her car to get it washed) --- IT IS NOT AN EROTIC EXPERIENCE.

Now service can be eroticized, but that takes considerable work and thought from the Domme --- but if the Domme has not put some kind of strong D/S component into the service ---- its just a guy doing a favor for his girlfriend, from my POV.

I've kind of gotten into trouble for feeling this way, and I've even been accused of not really being submissive for having this attitude. Right or wrong, though, its the way I feel.

How can what is mundane and necessary (vacuuming, mopping, dusting, shopping, etc.) in every other life context be elevated to a priviledge and erotic experience for a submissive? I happen to think that this idea is femdom/maledom fantasy projection, and also at times a tool to shift the balance of labor onto the submissive.

So, I agree with BTF, service without sex or eroticism is the height of boredom.



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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 9:54:09 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Some people do claim that all they need is to provide mundane service. Those people should be more honest and not make those claims.

People who only want mundane service without anything else also need to be honest about that -- the might want to hire a maid or cleaning service really, a lot less emotional hassle over all.

Fox does mundane things for me all the time but he does not consider it a favor, he considers it part of his duty as my slave. What does he get out of it? He tells me he is very happy when he lessens my stress, when he sees my smile, and when I acknowledge what he has done.

Plus if he wants to play or be intimate he's far more likely to get that from a less stressed TammyJo than a more stressed one -- I think that's true for many women (maybe men). I think as a slave though his biggest pleasure comes from knowing I'm here and I value him probably far more than anyone else values him, even his parents who can't accept some part of him (being bi for example). Yeah, you might be able to get that from a vanilla relationship to but he has it with me.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 10:19:16 AM   
myobedience


Posts: 472
Joined: 1/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn
.........
In the past, I thought maybe I was giving off the wrong signals or not being communicative enough. So I turned into someone who is pretty blunt about what floats my boat in this type of relationship, but it's like I'm not really heard, that people tend to hear things with a noise filter on so that the message comes through stating that I must not be looking for control and end up in that sort of situation again.
...............


I have 2 things to contribe to this:
First, if you have 6 people listening to one person speak and each person listening is  asked, in private, so no one "agrees" with another .....
1. what did they say?
2. What do you think is their mind frame?
3. What do they want?
You will in return receive, probably, receive 6 differnt sets of answers.
Second, when we first started talking, Sir asked me, open endedly, what is your joy, your thrill about being submissive.
I answered control/authority, obedience and the pleasure one finds in me being their cumslut.
From there each seperate item I listed was extensively discussed, clarified and comprehended (which I believe is different than understood).  Openness to explain, to be clarified in honesty is just  the way we seem to communicate.
But then I believe that openness is part of communication rarely emphasized (which i believe is very differnt than honesty). 

_____________________________

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A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you is the only Man truly worthy of being called Master.

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 7:53:21 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Fox does mundane things for me all the time but he does not consider it a favor, he considers it part of his duty as my slave. What does he get out of it? He tells me he is very happy when he lessens my stress, when he sees my smile, and when I acknowledge what he has done.


I do things for my wife all the time, but I don't think of it as service and I don't think of it as a favor either. Its just what I do, and I don't like to dress it up as anything special. (Not that this is comparable.)

Footnote: I never did read in Najackcharmer's LEATHER BOOK OF ANSWERS that, "She who weilds the paddle never pushes the vacuum."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/1/2007 8:16:35 PM >

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RE: Control and training can sometimes be a hard thing ... - 3/1/2007 8:00:45 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

"she who weilds the paddle never pushes the vacuum."


lmao! I want that on a t-shirt



_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


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