A Legal Marriage? (Full Version)

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ExSteelAgain -> A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 7:42:56 AM)

Most of us are fairly liberal when it comes to personal expressions of sexuality, no matter our political persuasions, I believe. Along that line I think most of us, heterosexual and homosexual, support same sex legal marriages. We see nothing wrong with defining a marriage legally in ways besides the traditional man/woman one.

Although I am not in a poly relationship, my question is why can’t a legal marriage have more than two people? Why can’t three or more people be legally married in one marriage? We have many cases on CM of happy poly relationships where many would support the idea of a marriage where all would have a legal stake. Some states are moving to legalize same sex marriages, why shouldn’t they include other forms of marriage with consenting adults?



sub4hire -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 7:58:44 AM)

Does that mean in Utah the law has changed?  Over the years I heard it has and have heard it hasn't in certain areas.
So, no idea of the law the way it stands currently.
Though, if I wanted more than two people in my marriage I would be looking at the law a bit closer.

I agree with you.  Whatever it takes to work if it does work.  Where do you draw the line?  So why draw one at all?



canupleaseme -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 8:01:21 AM)

I think its because the people who made the rules are insecure and worried their partner will then get someone else[;)]  I imagine divorce gets quite complivated when there are more than two people involved too lol

Seriuosly though I do agree, but then the world as a whole is close minded and sticks with what its knows already wether it works or not and I guess religion has a lot to do with it. In some religions mulitple partners and mulitple marraiges are acceptable arent they ? ( i could be very wrong with the marraiges bit[&:])  And look how long its taken to get them to change their minds about same sex marraiges.

It is such a shame though that people who have alternative lifestyles cant show their love and commitment in their  relationships by way of marraige when there are more than two of them.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 8:03:46 AM)

While I agree that poly should be a viable option, I see that it's a slippery slope when you look at the logistic. Marriage unions themselves aren't really the issue. The issues, in my mind, are things like tax breaks for being married, how insurance would work for dependents, how partners might be treated in adoption or custody issues. There's many things to be ironed out if three or more are involved.

As for your statements about how most of us here feel same sex marriages should be legal, I'm willing to bet that the percentage isn't as high as you think. Of course, you have to keep in mind that this is primarily a het board, which is what most pansexual spaces end up being in my experience. It's also my experience that het people are much more inclined to NOT support gay and lesbian marriage, mostly due to there lack of either tolerance or understanding of the issue.

Master Fire



toservez -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 8:45:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

While I agree that poly should be a viable option, I see that it's a slippery slope when you look at the logistic. Marriage unions themselves aren't really the issue. The issues, in my mind, are things like tax breaks for being married, how insurance would work for dependents, how partners might be treated in adoption or custody issues. There's many things to be ironed out if three or more are involved.

Master Fire



That is my issue with all these things. It has zero to do with morality but everything to do with the financial things and how other people in society/employers have to pay for things describe above.

Two separate issues maybe but the fact they are crushed together in our society currently.






BDSM05478 -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 9:41:02 AM)

I don't agree with same sex marriage, that term was created by a religious organization so only people that fit into that religion should be allowed to get married. That said I support same sex civil unions and wish we had multi partner unions too, so that we can take care of our families. Living in a state that was the first to pass civil unions I was proud to be witness to several same sex unions that first day, alot got married right in city hall park. Maybe one day but there just are not enough poly people to make a difference right now.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 10:36:12 AM)

Think about how messy divorces get or custody battles or survivor benefits.

Now add in more people and families with no precedent.



ShiftedJewel -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 10:39:21 AM)

I would love to see more states go with at the very least a legal union for same sex couples.
 
I attended an Indiana Civil Liberties Union event where we got to ask questions of our representatives concerning same sex marriage. My question was why can't they be legally married? He said that if they make same sex marriage legal that the next thing you know people will want poly legalized and after that they'll be screaming to legalize incest so they are "nipping it in the bud" so to speak... what a crock of shit.
 
Ok, that was my rant for the day.
 
Jewel



AquaticSub -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:00:31 AM)

~Fast Reply~

Frederick Douglas once said some very wise words in regards to feminists and their fight during the civil war era. I can not remember the exact quote (if anyone has it, I would love it), but the gist of it was "One battle at a time, first the slaves, then the women."

This country is having trouble saying that two loving people can't marry because they are same sex. I'd really rather not complicate that issue by trying to get the country to legalize more then two. To get that legalized will take a long time and it will be painful. The current legal system regarding marriages and divorces are set up for a two person system. And even with that we are having trouble updating it for equal rights for women. When we start adding more then two to the mix we will have to go back and rewrite everything. That's a lot of time and a lot of money, and a lot more complicated then simple revising everything to gender neutral terms for homosexuals.



Plethora22 -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:04:22 AM)

So here's the thing.  I'm about as liberal as liberal can be on social issues.  Pretty much anything goes in my book.  However, no one on any side of this issue wants to here my opinion here.

The state (ie the government) should NOT be in the business of validating personal relationships through marriage, period!  Whether it was the original intent or not, defining marriage is by definition offering a validation of a very personal relationship.  Dictating who can marry who inherently creates a subset of people who are going to be left out.  No matter how you define marriage there will be perfectly healthy loving relationships that get left in the cold.

Therefore I've been getting on my soapbox left right and sideways on this issue trying to convince people that the right thing to do here is not to legalize gay marriage, but to abolish marriage as a state sponsored institution.  Not for gay people, not for straight people, not for anyone.  How can we as citizens ask any group of people, much less elected officials who have all sorts of extra political baggage to deal with, to define what is or is not a valid relationship? 



Plethora22 -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:07:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

I don't agree with same sex marriage, that term was created by a religious organization so only people that fit into that religion should be allowed to get married. That said I support same sex civil unions and wish we had multi partner unions too, so that we can take care of our families. Living in a state that was the first to pass civil unions I was proud to be witness to several same sex unions that first day, alot got married right in city hall park. Maybe one day but there just are not enough poly people to make a difference right now.


So then, why does the state use the term marriage if it is strictly a religion term?



AquaticSub -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:28:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

I don't agree with same sex marriage, that term was created by a religious organization so only people that fit into that religion should be allowed to get married. That said I support same sex civil unions and wish we had multi partner unions too, so that we can take care of our families. Living in a state that was the first to pass civil unions I was proud to be witness to several same sex unions that first day, alot got married right in city hall park. Maybe one day but there just are not enough poly people to make a difference right now.


From what I understand civil unions for homosexuals do not provide the same benfits as a marriage.

I am bisexual. I could end up marrying another woman and I would want the same thing any man or woman gets. I want a marriage, I don't want it's redheaded stepchild.

I don't want to force a religious offical to preform a marriage he doesn't agree with, but there are priests who will preform them and I want that.



bearincuffs -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:29:37 AM)

From what I see and learned over the years concerning the definition of marraige and who is and isn't allowed is from a few reasons. To a large part, the church had a big say in the matter and the moral views of the general population played a part and then politics also became part of this controversy. Yes I know there are several other reasons but just wanted to point a few out. The problem lies with no set definition of what a marraige is that is acceptable with ALL people.
The way I see this is, especially in regards to same sex unions, we basically want the same rights as our hetero counterparts, nothing more and nothing less. Not all gay and lesbian couple want to be married, all they want is the legal right to that option even if they don't use that right.
 
Here in Canada, this isssue was settled a few years ago and now our current Prime Minister is attempting to reopen this issue. He personally is against same sex marraige and plans to change this even though it was made into law 5-6 years ago. The sad part is the government is so intertwined with the religeous sector that it's almost impossible to separate the two. My own personal views on this is I believe people have the right to legally get married if they so choose. I personally don't care if the couple is gay, straight, lesbian etc., I personally won't get married but I want that option if my views do change.



SmokingGun82 -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 11:54:38 AM)

I have no desire to ever get married- and I'd always stated that marriage was not in the cards for me, simply because I don't think the government needs to sanction my feelings for another person. I was in favor of gay marriage in an abstract "Whatever" way, kind of taking the Jon Stewart approach.

Something Penn Jillette said made me feel differently- when he and his (now) wife were having a kid, they tried to find a lawyer who would draw up a contract that guaranteed that the other got the child in the event of death. Under the way laws are written in many (if not all) states, there's no way to make sure of that... other than marriage.

So now I think, first of all, that marriage should be defined (to start with) as two people. Incest, two men, whatever. Polygamy gets into huge issues with financial aspects, so I'd say stay away from it for a while. And I've changed it to I'll never marry... unless I end up in a situation where a child is coming.

Just my thoughts.



ExSteelAgain -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 12:00:28 PM)

For those who simply stated it would be too complicated to have poly legal marriages, I disagree. If you agree with the concept, but doubt the implementation would be practical, how hard would it be for the judge to use a calculator and divide by 3 or whatever?



Wulfchyld -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 12:10:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

I would love to see more states go with at the very least a legal union for same sex couples.
 
I attended an Indiana Civil Liberties Union event where we got to ask questions of our representatives concerning same sex marriage. My question was why can't they be legally married? He said that if they make same sex marriage legal that the next thing you know people will want poly legalized and after that they'll be screaming to legalize incest so they are "nipping it in the bud" so to speak... what a crock of shit.
 
Ok, that was my rant for the day.
 
Jewel


Very interesting. Did you know that many Native American tribes are poly, and while on the reservation they have legal poly marriages?



GeekyGirl -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 12:16:13 PM)

I support gay/lesbian marriage 100%.

On poly marriage, I support it in theory but realize that the legal ramification/complications would be a tremendous barrier to overcome...it's hard enough sorting out divorces, taxes, custody battles etc when there is two people, let alone 3 or more.



AquaticSub -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 12:18:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

For those who simply stated it would be too complicated to have poly legal marriages, I disagree. If you agree with the concept, but doubt the implementation would be practical, how hard would it be for the judge to use a calculator and divide by 3 or whatever?


Because that isn't all that goes into marriage laws. There is the matter of spousal support if the marriage dissolves. Who has to to support who? And child custody. Will the parent who doesn't share any DNA just be shafted? Dissolving these marriages will be complicated if two people want to stay together and what will the courts do if suddenly one of the partners claims they were forced to agree to the marriage?

Almost every single marriage law will have to be rewritten. That takes a lot of time and time costs a lot of money. I'd rather wait and get homosexual marriage passed first.



slaveish -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 12:55:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez


That is my issue with all these things. It has zero to do with morality but everything to do with the financial things and how other people in society/employers have to pay for things describe above.


Almost ~everything~ is a matter of money, somewhere down the line. It is discouraging, to say the least. What is even more discouraging is that there is such naivete in the huddled masses that ~believe~ Certain Unnamed Leaders when they say that it is indeed an issue of morality.



ArgoGeorgia -> RE: A Legal Marriage? (2/28/2007 1:21:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plethora22

The state (ie the government) should NOT be in the business of validating personal relationships through marriage, period! 


I couldn't have said it better myself.  Marriage is for the church - whatever church you want to go to and however they want to do it.  The only thing the government should - maybe - enforce is something along the lines of a civil union.  And this civil union should be completely blind as to the players in the union.  It should be the same as the enforcement of a legally binding contract which can then be enforced via civil courts.  A civil union would be useful in terms of estate matters, insurance, etc. 

Personally, I think that marriage - at least as we know it - is going the way of the dodo bird.  53% of failed US marriages can't be wrong. 



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