RE: China (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:11:45 PM)

quote:


1. Capitalism is bad.


UNRESTRAINED Capitalism is bad. As "The People" we need to bitch-slap Artificial Legal Entities back into their proper submission and obedience. YOU can go ahead and do whatever you want. A CORPORATION or LLC, LLP, etc. needs to learn to STFU and obey.

quote:


2. The US is evil


Many things people do under the banner of the US are evil. And it would be a lot better for the US if it owned up to them. e.g. Supporting Diem in Vietnam after he ignored UN mandates for national elections to legitimize a government for the nation. That was bad. I guess the US is capable of some good, too. But it's more like Vint and Bob invented TCP/IP, not really the Government. Gore got them money, so I guess that counts.

I don't know if it offsets 5 million dead vietnamese though.

quote:


3. Everything is running out.


Capitalism doesn't work without perceived scarcity, no? If that's the case, I think everyone benefits from that belief, justified or not.

The Coffee keeps getting more expensive, thought. That's a data point.

quote:


4. Freedom doesn't exist.


Freedom is a State of Mind, baby.

Everyone is exactly as free as they insist upon being. Only you can make yourself free ( unless you're a Slave ).

quote:


5. Everything is a conspiracy


Well, just those things planned and committed by more than a single person.

quote:


6. Christianity is bad.


Meh. I leave them alone, and hope it works both ways. The Pope, however didn't do shit during the holocaust, so I don't think I'm going to put much faith in Benedict.

The Mormen's back-baptising dead Jews from the holocaust into their church really creeps me out, however.

And Fundie Christians are JUST AS BAD as Fundie Muslims.
oh, and Pat Robertson works for the Devil.




FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:14:55 PM)

FB,

Didn't read your link, because it's immaterial and not germane to the discussion.

Assistance to organizations and people who believe in a democratic system isn't bad.  It's admirable.

Or ... do you believe Chavez to now be some sort of democratically minded ruler?  You really think he is anything be a dictator a la Hitler, who subverted the democratic process to gain power, and is now in the process of consolidating his "one man, one rule" objective?

FirmKY



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:21:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FB,

Didn't read your link, because it's immaterial and not germane to the discussion.


I disagree. The governments own analysis of it's position vis-a-vis Venezuela is perfectly germane to the discussion of the US policy towards Venezuela. This isn't Freeper or Kos bullshit... It's the freaking State Department.

Chavez is the LAWFUL President of Venezuela, elected under the Venezuelan Constitution just as
Bush is the LAWFUL President of the United States, elected under the Constitution of the United States.

Some may not like their status under International Law, and I encourage people to act LAWFULLY to change that which the do not agree with. It's kind of funny to see the US Policy towards Venezuela to result in paying terrorists to act against another lawful government.

But hey, aren't people talking about our payoffs to Lebanon being funneled to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq and Iran to fight the Iranians... Insurgent groups run by... Al Quaida!

If 400,000 people didn't die because of it, it'd be almost humorous.




FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:21:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Firmhand: a country whose GDP  change is +ve but  that increase is based on more Bean Counters , administrative "experts" government bureaucrats etc  ,especially true with increased military expenditure, likewise with private <service> industry employment,  is IMO in actual decline. That is why credit is so central to the maintenance of Western economies.

Ask those that were employed in the US automotive industry if you think I am wrong.

There is a limit to the number of "white collar" non productive professionals that can be sustained.
We in the West surpassed that limit some time ago. IMO

As a consequence  tomorrow belongs to China.


Some interesting concepts for in-depth discussion at another time, perhaps, seeks.  We'd end up in a detailed discussion about financial and economic accounting ... and that's usually a kiss of death in a CM discussion thread.  [:D]

FirmKY



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:23:32 PM)

Fucking Delco.




petdave -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:24:23 PM)

China is a major concern. i disagree with those poo-pooing their military- i believe they could take Taiwan through force of arms in less than a week. The possibility of nuclear retaliation is an empty threat, IMO- their main concern is the loss of trading goodwill that comes with a military action of that type.

A superpower with one of the highest population densities in the world would not be a good thing, even forgetting the history of political repression. And with the industrial and technological base they've built (that the U.S. and others have gladly sold them), they would be very difficult to oppose in an armed conflict. Not a pretty picture.

...dave



FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:26:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FB,

Didn't read your link, because it's immaterial and not germane to the discussion.


I disagree. The governments own analysis of it's position vis-a-vis Venezuela is perfectly germane to the discussion of the US policy towards Venezuela. This isn't Freeper or Kos bullshit... It's the freaking State Department.

Chavez is the LAWFUL President of Venezuela, elected under the Venezuelan Constitution just as Bush is the LAWFUL President of the United States, elected under the Constitution of the United States.

Some may not like their status under International Law, and I encourage people to act LAWFULLY to change that which the do not agree with. It's kind of funny to see the US Policy towards Venezuela to result in paying terrorists to act against another lawful government.

But hey, aren't people talking about our payoffs to Lebanon being funneled to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq and Iran to fight the Iranians... Insurgent groups run by... Al Quaida!

If 400,000 people didn't die because of it, it'd be almost humorous.


Start a Chavez thread if you wish as it appears off topic to a "China" thread.

And you didn't answer my earlier question re:
do you believe Chavez to now be some sort of democratically minded ruler?  You really think he is anything be a dictator a la Hitler, who subverted the democratic process to gain power, and is now in the process of consolidating his "one man, one rule" objective?
FirmKY



FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:28:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


1. Capitalism is bad.


UNRESTRAINED Capitalism is bad. As "The People" we need to bitch-slap Artificial Legal Entities back into their proper submission and obedience. YOU can go ahead and do whatever you want. A CORPORATION or LLC, LLP, etc. needs to learn to STFU and obey.

quote:


2. The US is evil


Many things people do under the banner of the US are evil. And it would be a lot better for the US if it owned up to them. e.g. Supporting Diem in Vietnam after he ignored UN mandates for national elections to legitimize a government for the nation. That was bad. I guess the US is capable of some good, too. But it's more like Vint and Bob invented TCP/IP, not really the Government. Gore got them money, so I guess that counts.

I don't know if it offsets 5 million dead vietnamese though.

quote:


3. Everything is running out.


Capitalism doesn't work without perceived scarcity, no? If that's the case, I think everyone benefits from that belief, justified or not.

The Coffee keeps getting more expensive, thought. That's a data point.

quote:


4. Freedom doesn't exist.


Freedom is a State of Mind, baby.

Everyone is exactly as free as they insist upon being. Only you can make yourself free ( unless you're a Slave ).

quote:


5. Everything is a conspiracy


Well, just those things planned and committed by more than a single person.

quote:


6. Christianity is bad.


Meh. I leave them alone, and hope it works both ways. The Pope, however didn't do shit during the holocaust, so I don't think I'm going to put much faith in Benedict.

The Mormen's back-baptising dead Jews from the holocaust into their church really creeps me out, however.

And Fundie Christians are JUST AS BAD as Fundie Muslims.
oh, and Pat Robertson works for the Devil.


ohmygawd!

The Jewish version of meatcleaver!  [:D]

FirmKY



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:37:10 PM)

YOU made factually incorrect allegations regarding the US's position w.r.t. Chavez's Government.

Are you suggesting that correction of those incorrect allegations is Off Topic in some way?




FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:38:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddieslilsun

If everyone lived as the average westerner does that we would need 3 more planets of the same size and sources of consumable resources to accomodate.


Ok, daddieslilsun-without-a-profile ... where did you get your "fact"?

Notice ... it's "3 planets" now, instead of "5 planets".

But, I'd still wager it's based on both linear and zero-sum thinking and is likely not well documented or sourced.  In other words, likely a nice little propaganda piece from an "anti-capitalistic-global-warming-is-killing us" socialistic oriented group.

You can "prove" just about anything with statistics, if you have a gullible and friendly audience.

Source, please?

FirmKY



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:40:54 PM)

I don't know. You're the one who trivialized and attempted to ridicule him with your "insightful" analysis of his position.

*I* simply extended your offensive stereotype into something actually based in reality.

If you see the two as equivalent, that's your problem.




FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:45:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

YOU made factually incorrect allegations regarding the US's position w.r.t. Chavez's Government.

Are you suggesting that correction of those incorrect allegations is Off Topic in some way?


I'm not suggesting anything.  I'm flat out saying so.

You took a small part of a single sentence, in a larger paragraph of mine, which was about an theory about the likely reaction of the Chinese government's future actions, and are attempting to turn it into the main thesis of this thread.

I suspect, because it was all you could find to disagree with.  Or perhaps understand.

So, yes, off topic.

So ... if you want to talk about US actions in Venezuela, start another thread. If it's interesting enough, I may join it.  Or not.  Your inability to engage in discussion about topics beyond your narrow prejudices is tiring, however, and I may choose not to join you.

FirmKY



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 5:54:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

YOU made factually incorrect allegations regarding the US's position w.r.t. Chavez's Government.

Are you suggesting that correction of those incorrect allegations is Off Topic in some way?


I'm not suggesting anything. I'm flat out saying so.

You took a small part of a single sentence, in a larger paragraph of mine, which was about an theory about the likely reaction of the Chinese government's future actions, and are attempting to turn it into the main thesis of this thread.



Admit, as the evidence of the State Department clearly shows that your original statement was false, and this is over.

Hell, you don't have to admit you KNEW It was false at the time. Or that you had REASON TO BELIEVE it was less that truthful. You just have to admit, upon further review, the incorrectness of your statement and you can continue as you wish.

However, I don't believe the electrons who were inconvenienced to enable our exchange really mind, do you?



FirmhandKY -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:25:07 PM)

FB,

Please, quote my entire paragraph and sentence, in my original post, that you say is wrong.

Can you tell me the logical reason for that paragraph in my discussion about the future of China?

Do you disagree with that larger logical assumption and argument, regardless of whether you think the sentence about Venezuela is correct or incorrect?

Then, quote the specific sentence you believe is incorrect.

Then, clearly, and succinctly tell me why it's incorrect.

And, do it in another thread, and while you are at it, perhaps you'll be willing to answer the question I've put to you twice already?
do you believe Chavez to now be some sort of democratically minded ruler?  You really think he is anything but a dictator a la Hitler, who subverted the democratic process to gain power, and is now in the process of consolidating his "one man, one rule" objective?
Your "proof" so far, about US involvement in Venezuela, that you are trying to use, saying that the US government is "admitting" trying to take control of Venezuela has the following conclusions:
OIG found nothing to indicate that U.S. assistance programs in Venezuela, ... were inconsistent with U.S. law or policy ... we found no evidence that this support directly contributed, or was intended to contribute, to that event (Chávez brief ouster).
It seems that your source supports my position, not yours.

You are a conspiracy theorist, where facts will be ignored or twisted in your own head to support your own hatreds and prejudices.

It's never really productive to engage in a discussion with you, or your sort.  You just keep yelling louder and louder that you are correct, everyone else is wrong, and you end up calling anyone who disagrees with you names.

While not productive to enter a dicussion with you, it is - sometimes - entertaining.

FirmKY



Dtesmoac -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:31:32 PM)

Key issues that are staring to bite when investing in China is access to energy and access to water. This is starting to be a limiting factor. Also the local officials have enormous influence and as with other nations / economies that have grown quickly and not controlled corruption that growth is not sustainable.

Working standards are very poor in many places - when you kill 2% of your workforce you have to report it to the government - compare that to OSHA or HSE requirements. The current rate of growth will not continue and also the social infrastructure will cause instability again at some point. The ecomomics of investing in China are not as favourable as even 2 years ago. But it will continue to develope into a super power, biggest potential for conflict will be with India over water resources in about 50 years time. 



farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FB,

Please, quote my entire paragraph and sentence, in my original post, that you say is wrong.


I hate repeating myself. For direct reference...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_862328/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#862841

but the gist was:

quote:


The US really has no plans or desire to control his country


Which given the fact that the us was providing material support to the armed insurrectionists ( If you don't care for "Terrorists" ) who unlawfully seized control from the lawfully elected, constitutional President is Just Wrong.

That's like Condi Rice forgetting about the Marshall Plan.




farglebargle -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:39:26 PM)

Don't get me fucking started on OSHA.




Dtesmoac -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:40:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Don't get me fucking started on OSHA.

Why, they seem pretty ineffective tax collectors to me.............  :)





caitlyn -> RE: China (2/28/2007 6:58:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave
China is a major concern. i disagree with those poo-pooing their military- i believe they could take Taiwan through force of arms in less than a week. The possibility of nuclear retaliation is an empty threat, IMO- their main concern is the loss of trading goodwill that comes with a military action of that type.

A superpower with one of the highest population densities in the world would not be a good thing, even forgetting the history of political repression. And with the industrial and technological base they've built (that the U.S. and others have gladly sold them), they would be very difficult to oppose in an armed conflict. Not a pretty picture.


They could only take Taiwan, if they could swim there. 
 
I don't think anyone is poo-pooing their military. If you share a border with them, they are a serious concern ... but the facts remain, they have a navy that can only be considered small and antique by modern standards, really only suitable for coastal defense, and barely that. Heavy airlift capacity is basically none.
 
Now, I do agree that they have both the industry and technology to build a modern military, but the reality is that they don't currently have one and it would take some time to build. You might imagine that if they did start building, the gift technology might dry up. By the time they build up, most of what they built would already be obsolete.
 
Most importantly, the lack of a martial tradition at sea or in the air. It's vital and elusive ... you only get it from experience. Can you name China's last major sea engagement?



Sanity -> RE: China (2/28/2007 7:25:33 PM)

Actually, China IS building up their navy, and considerably. They are building every aspect of their military with astounding speed.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2007-02,GGLG:en&q=china+navy+buildup



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