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RE: China - 2/28/2007 7:38:58 PM

caitlyn

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Well ... three times nothing, I guess qualifies as considerably.

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RE: China - 2/28/2007 7:51:53 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FB,

Please, quote my entire paragraph and sentence, in my original post, that you say is wrong.

I hate repeating myself. For direct reference...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_862328/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#862841

but the gist was:

quote:

The US really has no plans or desire to control his country

Which given the fact that the us was providing material support to the armed insurrectionists ( If you don't care for "Terrorists" ) who unlawfully seized control from the lawfully elected, constitutional President is Just Wrong.

That's like Condi Rice forgetting about the Marshall Plan.

Again, you are ducking the real issues, and are straining at gnats.

Fourth time ... you gonna answer my question about whether Chavez is a democratically minded leader, or a dictator consolidating his hold on power? Seems like you are trying really, really hard to avoid answering that question.

As for any US actions in Venezuela - for your education, there is a difference between "political control" and "political influence".

Again ... YOUR OWN SOURCE says that nothing the US did was intended, nor actually contributed to the short putz that attempted to remove Chavez from power.

*shakes head*

Yet, in your world, it seems like the US has designs to invade Venezuela and place it's people into slavery for the evil corporations against the wishes of the angelic Hugo Chavez.

FirmKY

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Post #: 62

RE: China - 2/28/2007 9:24:23 PM

Stephann

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It's no secret the US has no love for Chavez. The US has no designs upon Venezuela (or any other Latin American country) so long as those countries continue to engage in business as usual. Obviously, the changes Chavez has been initiating could turn the country into another Cuba; putting a dent into an already fragile oil market. The US isn't interested in ousting Chavez, personally, but wouldn't spill any tears if it came to pass.

Chavez, on the other hand, has managed to consolidate his current political position, by using the Bougois Capitalist PigDogs as the exterior threat. Mao did the same thing; a revolution requires an angry population. The US was, and is, a perfect target because no matter how angry people are in other countries, the US is used to it; so long as we can still sell McBurgers and Coca-Cola, we're not likely to go head to head with Chavez.

Fargle, would you consider a man elected, by promising no taxes for right handed people, but 90% income taxes on left handed people to be 'legally' elected? So would I. That doesn't mean the best interests of the country and it's people are even remotely considered. Chavez's dear hero, Fidel, is also one of the world's richest world leaders. I doubt it was because he invested in Microsoft.

Stephan

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Post #: 63

RE: China - 2/28/2007 11:33:34 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1. Capitalism is bad.

Capitalism keeps most of the world in poverty but looks good from the west's point of view because it has made us rich. However, there just aren't the resources to provide 6 billion people with a western life style. Even with magical new technology that is not on the horizon that people like you seem to think will come about, treating the earth as a free resource is depleting the planet.

2. The US is evil

No or at least no more evil than any other imperial power.

3. Everything is running out.

Many civilisations have destroyed themself by overconsuming its habitat, I think it is rather conceited to think ours won't, even though most rational people recognize we live in a culture that encourages greed and disregard for our own living space.

4. Freedom doesn't exist.

No. Freedom is in the head. The genius of western democracy is that it fools you into thinking you're free. It has many safety valves that release tension but freedom is an illusion, as I said, its a head thing so I guess the illusion works for many and many wouldn't care anyway as long as they have the idiot eye in the corner of the room. Have you tried to stop a government from doing something or making a reform against its political interests but for the good of the people? The British couldn't stop their government taking them to war even though 66% of the population was against it. I could go on.

5. Everything is a conspiracy

I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I just think the average politician works for their own self interest which usually isn't mine. The only rational position to take is to be a member of the permanent opposition and question everytthing.

6. Christianity is bad.

Christianity is a load of superstitious shite like all other religions. It is based on lies, it central tenets are are nonsense and the more Christian someone is the more violent and the less likely they are to turn the other cheek or be anything like the publicity Christians deseminate about themselves. The USA is far more Christian than Europe but it's the most violent society and one that has the death penalty.

What you don't have is any kind of plan to improve the world - other than destroy all that is "bad" and hope that something better will come of it.

You assume vacuous materialism is an improvement. It is already recognized in politics (well European politics) that increasing wealth beyond a certain threshold brings diminishing returns for people's happiness and well being. That beyoind a certain point of wealth, people gain more satisfactory lives through social intercourse and pursuing activities they see as having a direct positive impact on their fellow humans. Having a distaste for a culture that distracts itself through trinkets while ignoring crimes commited by the government to keep the population in trinkets to be distracted with, isn't a culture to celebrate to me. There is a lot of western culture I like but the head in the sand part I don't.

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RE: China - 2/28/2007 11:42:55 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

It's no secret the US has no love for Chavez. The US has no designs upon Venezuela (or any other Latin American country) so long as those countries continue to engage in business as usual. Obviously, the changes Chavez has been initiating could turn the country into another Cuba; putting a dent into an already fragile oil market. The US isn't interested in ousting Chavez, personally, but wouldn't spill any tears if it came to pass.

Chavez, on the other hand, has managed to consolidate his current political position, by using the Bougois Capitalist PigDogs as the exterior threat. Mao did the same thing; a revolution requires an angry population. The US was, and is, a perfect target because no matter how angry people are in other countries, the US is used to it; so long as we can still sell McBurgers and Coca-Cola, we're not likely to go head to head with Chavez.

Fargle, would you consider a man elected, by promising no taxes for right handed people, but 90% income taxes on left handed people to be 'legally' elected? So would I. That doesn't mean the best interests of the country and it's people are even remotely considered. Chavez's dear hero, Fidel, is also one of the world's richest world leaders. I doubt it was because he invested in Microsoft.

Stephan

You're concern for the Venezuelen people is touching but the real reason for American concern is Venezuelen oil. It is Venezuela's oil to do what it wants with and it should have no concern to the US. You are one of those Americans that fail to see that America's 45 year tantrum with Cuba is the real problem and why do you think that so many Latin Americans are so open to anti-American propaganda? It couldn't be that they have good reason could it? US threats and implied threats are only going to make that propaganda appear to be the truth. Maybe it is the truth, maybe America has no interest in Latin America other than to exploit its resources and fuck over its people like many of the claims made. Certainly the popular belief in the US appears to be that if Venezuela doesn't sell its oil to the US at a price the US wants to pay they will be targets of American violence.

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Post #: 65

RE: China - 2/28/2007 11:53:11 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Actually, China IS building up their navy, and considerably. They are building every aspect of their military with astounding speed.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2007-02,GGLG:en&q=china+navy+buildup

The Chineese navy was so obsolete it is a rational thing was to modernise once it had the resources. The problem with the Whitehouse is that it sees countries that have experienced western exploitation in the past and wish to defend themselves against further exploitation in the future as aggressive, when all the aggression has come from the western side.

Why is it that none Americans that want to arm themselves are seen as aggressive and America which spends more on its military than the next 13 biggest spenders put together, only wants to defend its interests? American military spending doesn't compute into self defence, it is aggressive. Many countries have experienced that aggression. The only logic for any country wanting to defend itself against a USA projecting its power is to make any American attack pyric.

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Post #: 66

RE: China - 3/1/2007 1:57:16 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's kind of funny to see the US Policy towards Venezuela to result in paying terrorists to act against another lawful government.

But hey, aren't people talking about our payoffs to Lebanon being funneled to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq and Iran to fight the Iranians... Insurgent groups run by... Al Quaida!

Fargle,

Any more details on the above?

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 2:59:01 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's kind of funny to see the US Policy towards Venezuela to result in paying terrorists to act against another lawful government.

But hey, aren't people talking about our payoffs to Lebanon being funneled to Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq and Iran to fight the Iranians... Insurgent groups run by... Al Quaida!

Fargle,

Any more details on the above?

Sy Hirsh is in the New Yorker with it.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 3:06:59 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Again, you are ducking the real issues, and are straining at gnats.

The ISSUE I care about is you made a false statement about the US intentions towards Venezuela.

Nothing more.

quote:

Fourth time ... you gonna answer my question

No. Because I am not engaging in DISCUSSION. I am just calling out a single factual error. You wish to divert attention from your error, ( AND it's very troubling implications ) by engaging in a discussion.

I am staying focused. Perhaps you could try to keep focused too.

You said the US doesn't have any goals or plans w.r.t. Venezuela. That's absurd, given the funding and active support of those who unlawfully opposed the lawful President and used violence in their attempt to take over the government.

Acting unlawfully, outside of the Constitution of Venezuela, using violence to effect change and affect perceptions about the government would under US Law qualifies the opposition as Terrorists.

Terrorists don't deserve that support of the US.

You might disagree, and say, "Well, sometimes paying off Terrorists is a good thing, depending on who they're against".

But I call that hypocritical. More than hyporcritical.

It is an INSULT to those and the families of those who have died by terror historically, specifically on 9/11, and since in the continuing fight against Terror.

I can't imagine the US paying and supporting Terrorists while sending our Troops to die fighting Terrorists.

It sickens me that ANYONE would shit on victims, our troops, and their families in this way.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/1/2007 3:22:24 AM >

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 3:42:37 AM

dogthing

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quote:

Some may not like their status under International Law, and I encourage people to act LAWFULLY to change that which the do not agree with. It's kind of funny to see the US Policy towards Venezuela to result in paying terrorists to
act against another lawful government.

The neocon team were doing all that stuff during the cold war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT
When Bush's brought his dad's old team out of the deep freeze they picked up where they left off.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 3:50:46 AM

NorthernGent

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Nicaragua being a case in point....when the International Court of Justice found the US government guilty of violating Nicaraguan sovereignty and fined them billions of dollars...and the US government simply withdrew their membership of the said body.

Same old eh.

Would China be more peaceful than the US government - possibly, it's hard to imagine another nation's government with so many fingers in so many pies....'bout time they used a few of these fingers to resolve serious issues of chronic murder rates and homelessness.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 5:07:07 AM

seeksfemslave

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I will say this, Living outside mainland US and hearing the US government saying it was worried about my freedom then there would only be one thing to do....run for the hills and hope US fighter bombers didnt get me.

I exclude Iraq from this because I believe both the US/UK are keen to disengage and in fact it is the Iraquis doing the killing.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 5:27:35 AM

Sanity

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And when China makes Europe their next Tiannamon Square incident, and there is no going back for you, will you still be spitting in the general direction of the United States?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Nicaragua being a case in point....when the International Court of Justice found the US government guilty of violating Nicaraguan sovereignty and fined them billions of dollars...and the US government simply withdrew their membership of the said body.

Same old eh.

Would China be more peaceful than the US government - possibly, it's hard to imagine another nation's government with so many fingers in so many pies....'bout time they used a few of these fingers to resolve serious issues of chronic murder rates and homelessness.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 5:45:03 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And when China makes Europe their next Tiannamon Square incident, and there is no going back for you

This is wildly unrealistic and bordering on hysteria.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

will you still be spitting in the general direction of the United States?

Based on the above, I think you misunderstand the world's focus. I'm sure you're a decent enough bunch and all that, but it is US foreign policy which demands the world's attention (as opposed to the United States).

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 5:48:25 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And when China makes Europe their next Tiannamon Square incident, and there is no going back for you, will you still be spitting in the general direction of the United States?

The USA is relatively geographically isolated, it has a huuuuuuuge military, faaaaaaar in excess of anyone elses and faaaaar mooooore than it needs for its own defence. The USA's freedom is untouchable and one can only conclude that when the USA starts fearing for the freedom of others, it is just a ploy to attack someone for its own interests. Americans can sleep safe in their beds, its others that have to worry about America....oh and its lapdogs.

China has to march through Russia to get to Europe. Russia is a huge country but its population is only 143 million, it doesn't want a war with 450 million Europeans of the EU when it can earnm money from them by selling them energy.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/1/2007 5:52:29 AM >

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 5:49:54 AM

mnottertail

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When they do, it will be a surprise to the greatest part of the globe. Not thier style at all, you might consider what went on with the US/Korea talks just recently vis a vis China.......it went down like I said it would.

It is not in Chinas best interest to turn Europe into anything against their will. This stops them from doing idiotic things.
It is not in the United States best interest to turn the middle east into anything against their will. This causes them to do idiotic things.

That may have been the source of your confusion.

Ron

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 6:07:42 AM

petdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The Chineese navy was so obsolete it is a rational thing was to modernise once it had the resources. The problem with the Whitehouse is that it sees countries that have experienced western exploitation in the past and wish to defend themselves against further exploitation in the future as aggressive, when all the aggression has come from the western side.

Like testing lasers against US surveillance satellites? Nothing aggressive about that at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Certainly the popular belief in the US appears to be that if Venezuela doesn't sell its oil to the US at a price the US wants to pay they will be targets of American violence.

Good to know, Mr. Gallup.
Chavez is one of those very talented "socialist" leaders who manages to create mass shortages and poverty in a country with valuable natural resources, but still stay in power because he can blame it all on the big mean United States. If it weren't for us, he'd have to find some other scapegoat to keep the peasants agitated... i don't think they've got a lot of Jews there, but maybe he could come up with a riff on some native Indian minority, or Brazil or something.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 6:24:02 AM

caitlyn

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Don't bother dave ...

Meatcleaver is the European version of Joseph McCarthy ... he see's an American tank around every corner.

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 6:37:46 AM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I will say this, Living outside mainland US and hearing the US government saying it was worried about my freedom then there would only be one thing to do....run for the hills and hope US fighter bombers didnt get me.

I exclude Iraq from this because I believe both the US/UK are keen to disengage and in fact it is the Iraquis doing the killing.

ummm. can you say Katrina. those folks are Americans. US govt STOPPED -truckload of water from Walmart, blocks Firemen en route from virginia, My goverment that is here to protect me BLOCKED aid sent by many credable folks.
The video was televised around the globe. Folks all over the world offerred help. I will never forgive bush for this!!

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RE: China - 3/1/2007 7:51:34 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Don't bother dave ...

Meatcleaver is the European version of Joseph McCarthy ... he see's an American tank around every corner.

Funny you should say that. I saw an American convoy on my way back from Kolne this morning.