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RE: China - 3/3/2007 9:35:51 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

If you're opening the discussion to a historical examination of the most brutal acts in history, you'd be hard pressed to beat Ghengis Khan.  His legacy left about 40 million dead, though this would have been 800 or so years ago; a time where there simply weren't as many people on the planet as there are today.  Would you consider him Chinese?  Considering during his reign, there was no 'China' as we know it, and what is Mongolia today sits on the northern border of present day China.  What about the legacy left behind when the Mings succeeded the Mongols for control over the 'Chinese' region.  The infighting in the Chinese region was no more or less brutal and violent than the fighting that took place in Europe on a regular basis during that period, not to mention the form of feudalism that existed in China was little different from the outright slavery that existed in the US in the 17 and 1800s.


Ghengis Khan wasn't Chineese, he conquered China.

My whole point is that we in the west are smug with our superior values of individual freedom and the rule of law, daren't look in the mirror because will will see the monster we accuse all the other inferior and untrustworthy races of being.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann


Asking how many countries 'China' has invaded, would rank up there with how many countries 'The Soviet Union' invaded following World War II.  Would you consider Germany in their ranks?
 


This is cockeyed thinking. Russia and China didn't trust each other. What you are really saying is you can't think of one country China has invaded. One at a pinch could include Korea but its pressing an issue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
The world doesn't neatly fit into black and white labels.  In any event, I'm not discounting any madness on any part.  I'm pointing out calculated, tactical decisions rulers made and make all the time, to further political, military, and economic aims.  At the time catch phrases like 'equality' and 'liberty' and 'justice' are well and nice, but history is written by the victors regardless of what they called themselves in the conquering.  Power and aggression don't have any inherent 'good' or 'evil'; they are simply tools used by good and evil men.

Stephan


Your thinking is that of the self fullfilling prophecy, a sort of game theory were trust is absent from all human relationships. If you act aggressively towards someone, they will be aggressive back and so fullfill your expectations. It is nothing but paranoia. The USSR had this problem, the world is round so they were surrounded by enemies, a sizeable proportion of Americans and particularly American politicians seem to have this problem too.

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:01:33 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Ghengis Khan wasn't Chineese, he conquered China.

Neither was he Western.  Russia, too, was not Western.  I believe Japan and Egypt also sit firmly in the East; the atrocities of the West are only matched in blood with the East.

In Temujin's day, there were no 'Chinese' people.  There was a cultural, religious, and economic region of mini countries that resembled Europe, that westerners refer to as 'China' simply because we lack the lingual ability to see it any differently.  I make the point, because it illustrates that brutality isn't of western origin; it exists in every culture on the planet.  The more 'civilized' (or really, organized) a people become, the greater the capacity for their brutality becomes.

My whole point is that we in the west are smug with our superior values of individual freedom and the rule of law, daren't look in the mirror because will will see the monster we accuse all the other inferior and untrustworthy races of being.

Do you suppose this conversation would be permitted on a Chinese server?  Are you suggesting that our rights and abilities to speak our mind, and take political action are equal to that of the Chinese?  Do you suppose a voting block in the US or England (or any other 'Western' Nation) of 50 million would be ignored or overlooked by the fascist regimes you imagine our governments to be?  Frankly, after thousands of years of oppression, denying average citizens to contribute to government, I'm surprised it only took a couple hundred years for democratic institutions to fall back into the hands of the same types of people who lost it to guillotines and firing squads in various revolutions.  The fact is, that if we are not 'free' it is because we no longer wish to be active enough in our societies to maintain a grip on that freedom.  If the Constitution of the US required an actual majority, there would be no president today; half of US citizens don't vote! 

Herein lies the irony; we complain that our votes are worthless, in the face of millions, and that elections are won by those with the most money.  Thus, we do not vote.  We are 'sick' of the broken system, so rather than attempt to repair it (or even use it as intended) we simply ignore it and let 'someone else' deal with it.  Eventually, only the people most active, most interested, and most financially -will-  use that system to their own advantage.  Herein lies the vicious circle; we do not believe our vote matters, so we do not use it.  We do not believe our voice matters, so we do not speak.  We do not believe our opinions matter, so we do not actually form them.  The system is designed for people with opinions to raise their voices and vote with those voices.  There's no mystery why the system no longer functions.

My apologies for the tangent.  No, there's no inferior races.  There's only fear of races and languages and cultures we do not know.  Some people will gladly accept the devil they do not know, over the devil they do know.  Others will not.  Ignorance doesn't make either devil more palatable.

Your thinking is that of the self fullfilling prophecy, a sort of game theory were trust is absent from all human relationships. If you act aggressively towards someone, they will be aggressive back and so fullfill your expectations. It is nothing but paranoia. The USSR had this problem, the world is round so they were surrounded by enemies, a sizeable proportion of Americans and particularly American politicians seem to have this problem too.

I strongly suggest you take a good look at Marxist doctrine.  Then take a look at how Stalin implemented it.  The USSR intermingled Communism and Russian Imperialism so tightly, and used re-education and propaganda so effectively, that there's no question that the USSR was not trust worthy.  If you have any doubts of this fact, a look at Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and 'Eastern' Germany illustrated the political agenda of the Soviets.  Truth be told, trust -is- absent in political relationships.  Countries trust each other, only when there is something to be gained by that trust (improved commerce, or mutual defense, for example.)  Countries trust each other, when they are so distant from each other, they are unlikely to become rivals (Australia enjoys this sort of trust with many countries, as does Japan with most Western nations.)

This is cockeyed thinking. Russia and China didn't trust each other. What you are really saying is you can't think of one country China has invaded. One at a pinch could include Korea but its pressing an issue.

Or Vietnam, but that would raise a few hackles.  Indonesia seems to be struggling with Maoists, and if there had been no giant mountains and language gap, do you doubt that the joys of Maoism wouldn't have been offered to the Indian people?

Regards,
Stephan



< Message edited by Stephann -- 3/3/2007 10:04:32 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:28:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I won't go the whole hog, but I can afford to be right in my smugness.


However, in butressing this, Mongolia today is Mongolia and free of China, in a rather loose sort of way that Pakistan is free of India.


Now, regarding making noise on a chinese server, I will accede the point but in tangent, I can tell you in my day you couldn't stand on the street corner and call Helmut Kohl a cocksucker without a little visit from crepo.  I DO NOT KNOW THAT IT IS ANY SPIRIT LOFTING FREEDOM, to be be able to call George a cocksucker and get away with it half the time....PEOPLE die under all regeims and I am uncertain that a scoreboard of decending death rolls.

That ain't gonna be what clips your ass.

It will be:
Ka
Fu
Chi
Sui
Ku

read Sun Tzu.....it isn't esoteric eastern philosophy, it is extremely conservative, right wing, and total successful completion of fundamental goals.

They can take us by pocket anytime, and you can make the argument that they need us as bad as we need them, but they have the long term prospects
we get mad, we get stupid
they will remain unperturbed and like the old bull, walk down and fuck em all.

until we start taking a very long term outlook, and search for the answers in our great-great-great-great-great grandchildren, we will wash away.

Ron  

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:36:42 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Ghengis Khan wasn't Chineese, he conquered China.

Neither was he Western.  Russia, too, was not Western.  I believe Japan and Egypt also sit firmly in the East; the atrocities of the West are only matched in blood with the East.
 

 
Russia not western? Where do you get that idea from? Russia is an integral part of Europe whether you like the country or not. Just a few Russians that have contributed to western culture.
 
Rimsky-Korsakov
Petr Tchaikovsky
Rahmaninov 
Skryabin 
Shostakovich 
Prokofiev
Leo Tolstoy 
Fyodor Dostoevsky
Maxim Gorky
Alexander Pushkin
Mikhail Lermontov
Alexander Block
Marina Tsvetaeva
Anna Ahmatova
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Mikhail Lomonosov
Vladimir Vernadsky
Dmitry Mendeleev
Andrei Sakharov
Yury Roerich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
In Temujin's day, there were no 'Chinese' people.  There was a cultural, religious, and economic region of mini countries that resembled Europe, that westerners refer to as 'China' simply because we lack the lingual ability to see it any differently.  I make the point, because it illustrates that brutality isn't of western origin; it exists in every culture on the planet.  The more 'civilized' (or really, organized) a people become, the greater the capacity for their brutality becomes.


You brought Ghengis Khan up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Do you suppose this conversation would be permitted on a Chinese server?  Are you suggesting that our rights and abilities to speak our mind, and take political action are equal to that of the Chinese?  Do you suppose a voting block in the US or England (or any other 'Western' Nation) of 50 million would be ignored or overlooked by the fascist regimes you imagine our governments to be?  Frankly, after thousands of years of oppression, denying average citizens to contribute to government, I'm surprised it only took a couple hundred years for democratic institutions to fall back into the hands of the same types of people who lost it to guillotines and firing squads in various revolutions.  The fact is, that if we are not 'free' it is because we no longer wish to be active enough in our societies to maintain a grip on that freedom.  If the Constitution of the US required an actual majority, there would be no president today; half of US citizens don't vote! 


It is really irrelevent to the conversation as to whether this conversation would be allowed by the Chineese. What is relevent is that they don't break international treaties and they don't invade other countries.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
I strongly suggest you take a good look at Marxist doctrine.  Then take a look at how Stalin implemented it.  The USSR intermingled Communism and Russian Imperialism so tightly, and used re-education and propaganda so effectively, that there's no question that the USSR was not trust worthy.  If you have any doubts of this fact, a look at Albania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, and 'Eastern' Germany illustrated the political agenda of the Soviets.  Truth be told, trust -is- absent in political relationships.  Countries trust each other, only when there is something to be gained by that trust (improved commerce, or mutual defense, for example.)  Countries trust each other, when they are so distant from each other, they are unlikely to become rivals (Australia enjoys this sort of trust with many countries, as does Japan with most Western nations.)

 
Look at Russian history and how many times it was invaded from the west and how many people it lost because of it. Russia holding on to buffer states after WWII was not irrational, if a little unfortunate.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Or Vietnam, but that would raise a few hackles.  Indonesia seems to be struggling with Maoists, and if there had been no giant mountains and language gap, do you doubt that the joys of Maoism wouldn't have been offered to the Indian people?



The question is, how many countries has China invaded, not how many terrorist groups is Moa inspired.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:39:50 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		No offense, Ron, but I figure that if China's multi-generational approach were to be capable of bearing fruit, it would have done so a few hundred years ago.  This isn't to say their patience is without merit; moving forward, slowly, is still moving forward.  Communist regimes unfortunately tend to demonstrate an inability to move forward quick enough to be competitive with capitalist regimes.  The irony shouldn't be lost on the fact that it derives from a lack of (drum roll....) competition.

Stephan




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Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:46:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, China is the largest purveyor of Computer gear (they make alot more than shoe soles) we are looking at this from a history of three hundred years, and yeah, I think a few hundred or a thousand years ago, they were kinda behind everyone else in terms of what we measure.  They are seriously encroaching 'OUR' world oil supply as well as other resources we covet.  It will be interesting to see if Aesop was right about the tortoise and the hare.

I would think it is fairly obvious we are burning ourselves out running the world.

Ron 

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: China - 3/3/2007 10:56:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

BOUNTYHUNTER
The only problem China has is that it owns about half of the USA and doesn't know what to do with it quite yet...When it does then look out..bounty


Thats because its making plans to get hold of the other half !! lol
Do they have a health care service in China ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/3/2007 10:57:58 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: China - 3/3/2007 11:00:08 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		they dont need them, it is a death benefit, they look at it like you were born, you will die and the government doesnt deal with those kind of problems.

Mushashi

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: China - 3/3/2007 11:52:18 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I think China would handle the islamist terrorist problem very well!
They'd get a bunch of them in a naked butt pyramid, film them having sex with each other, shoot them in the back of the heads and charge their familys for the bullet.
"GO CHINA!"

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: China - 3/3/2007 1:32:59 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Russia not western? Where do you get that idea from? Russia is an integral part of Europe whether you like the country or not. Just a few Russians that have contributed to western culture.

Is it easier to pick nits than it is to address the base issue?  Bloody wars, massacres, and slave owning didn't originate and exist solely in the west.  I'll gladly tackle the difference between Western and Eastern philosophies with you in another thread.  I contend that Russia stands at the crossroads of both, thus is uniquely neither, but has more in common traditionally and culturally with China than it does with England.  I also contend, that your assertion regarding how much 'worse' the West is than China simply doesn't hold water.  Just about every technologically advanced civilization made an effort to expand beyond their borders.  Japan regularly attacked China; does that make them a Western country, or acting in concert with Western Imperialism? 

You brought Ghengis Khan up.

Yep, I sure did.  I contend he represented forces that did more damage to the region known as China than any westerner could have.  I contend he was no different than any of the other leaders who would come to rule China.

It is really irrelevent to the conversation as to whether this conversation would be allowed by the Chineese. What is relevent is that they don't break international treaties and they don't invade other countries.

Depends on what you consider relevence.  A country that appears to follow international law, yet does not permit their own citizens basic human rights, doesn't sound like a neighbor I'd enjoy.  I believe in a concept of 'basic human rights.'  If China had the capacity to rise to a position of dominance, do you think they would think twice on enforcing their notion of law on their neighbors?  Again, the weapons Vietnam were receiving weren't coming straight from Mother Russia.

Look at Russian history and how many times it was invaded from the west and how many people it lost because of it. Russia holding on to buffer states after WWII was not irrational, if a little unfortunate.

I find it remarkable you consider the execution of tens of millions of political activists to be 'a little unfortunate.'  I could say the same about Iraqis, except it isn't M-16s that are killing them.  Russia didn't have any 'right' to establish a buffer, anymore than Hitler had a 'right' to conquer those countries on his way East. 

The question is, how many countries has China invaded, not how many terrorist groups is Moa inspired.

Supporting revolutions in other countries using agitators, action squads, and direct shipments of arms - to me - is on the same level as an invasion.  Convincing people to revolt against their government, so they can become puppet states of another, is the same exact thing.  Perhaps you don't see Hezbollah as an invasion; those who live in Lebenon certainly do, though.

Stephan

_____________________________

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Men: Find a Woman here

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:09:38 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I think China would handle the islamist terrorist problem very well!
They'd get a bunch of them in a naked butt pyramid, film them having sex with each other, shoot them in the back of the heads and charge their familys for the bullet.
"GO CHINA!"


I shouldny larf...but I did.

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:34:49 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Russia not western? Where do you get that idea from? Russia is an integral part of Europe whether you like the country or not. Just a few Russians that have contributed to western culture.

Is it easier to pick nits than it is to address the base issue?  Bloody wars, massacres, and slave owning didn't originate and exist solely in the west.  I'll gladly tackle the difference between Western and Eastern philosophies with you in another thread.  I contend that Russia stands at the crossroads of both, thus is uniquely neither, but has more in common traditionally and culturally with China than it does with England.  I also contend, that your assertion regarding how much 'worse' the West is than China simply doesn't hold water.  Just about every technologically advanced civilization made an effort to expand beyond their borders.  Japan regularly attacked China; does that make them a Western country, or acting in concert with Western Imperialism? 

 
You are missing the point, this thread is about China, not Japan, who just happens to be an ally of the USA. China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.
 
As for Russia, it is a European country and culture. It has to deal with China because China is a neighbour but 90% of all Russians live in European Russia or other eastern European countries. To say Russia is not a European country is a nonsense. It might not be a western European country but it is European and has been a major player in European culture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

You brought Ghengis Khan up.

Yep, I sure did.  I contend he represented forces that did more damage to the region known as China than any westerner could have.  I contend he was no different than any of the other leaders who would come to rule China.
 

 
Yes he did do great damage to China but he's still not Chineese and it is mad and dangerous China we are talking about.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann
Depends on what you consider relevence.  A country that appears to follow international law, yet does not permit their own citizens basic human rights, doesn't sound like a neighbor I'd enjoy.  I believe in a concept of 'basic human rights.'  If China had the capacity to rise to a position of dominance, do you think they would think twice on enforcing their notion of law on their neighbors?  Again, the weapons Vietnam were receiving weren't coming straight from Mother Russia.
 

 
Many of us believe in basic human rights but the US only seems to worry about them when its in their interest. China doesn't appear to follow international law, it does follow international law which is something many of the US's allies don't do but they don't seem to cultivate US hysteria.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I find it remarkable you consider the execution of tens of millions of political activists to be 'a little unfortunate.'  I could say the same about Iraqis, except it isn't M-16s that are killing them.  Russia didn't have any 'right' to establish a buffer, anymore than Hitler had a 'right' to conquer those countries on his way East. 


 
Russia had no right to a buffer zone but it had one because it was invaded and it won the ensuing war. The US and Britain had no right to be in Iraq so what is your point?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Supporting revolutions in other countries using agitators, action squads, and direct shipments of arms - to me - is on the same level as an invasion.  Convincing people to revolt against their government, so they can become puppet states of another, is the same exact thing.  Perhaps you don't see Hezbollah as an invasion; those who live in Lebenon certainly do, though.



Pot, kettle, black, here. How many revolutions and coups has the US been involved with? A damn sight more than China is my bet. China has been involved with border disputes and Tibet. While I might not like the Chineese social system nor its politics, it is still no reason to somehow suggest they are an out of control dangerous state when they clearly aren't. They are clearly one of the world's stabilizing states, even if you don't like them.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/3/2007 2:37:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:40:59 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		China invaded Korea.

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:45:17 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

China invaded Korea.


I said that earlier in the thread. Though the conflict wasn't as simple as that and Chineese involvenement was limited. It was their Mexico or Canada, whichever you care to choose and the US would never ecver allow meddling in its back yard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/3/2007 2:51:55 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:48:28 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

 China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.


Tibet and Vietnam might beg to differ.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: China - 3/3/2007 2:50:47 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

 China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.


Tibet and Vietnam might beg to differ.


I did mention Tibet in the thread.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: China - 3/3/2007 3:00:19 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

 China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.


Tibet and Vietnam might beg to differ.


oh, come on now, John and caitlyn ... since when did meat ever let something as esoteric as facts get in the way of a good argument?

It's easy ....

Western Civ is evil, bad, and must be destroyed.

If it's not Western Civ, then their excesses are both understandable and forgiveable (and most likely caused by the evil Westerns!).

See?

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: China - 3/3/2007 3:04:18 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		See, you mentioned them, but later went on to say:
 
"You are missing the point, this thread is about China, not Japan, who just happens to be an ally of the USA. China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one!"

... which is inaccurate at best, complete bullshit at worst. The Qin continually raided Hsung-nu lands for generations ... indeed, many historians feel the great wall was originally less a defensive measure, and more of a series of bases from which to raid. The original look of the wall, somewhat supports this conclusion.
 
All you are doing is spinning here, to support your own agenda. I can do the same thing. I could say that the United States has never invaded anyone, only supported their allies, protected their own back yard, and in the case of Iraq, served as a tool to enforce UN resolutions. Of course, if I said this, it would be bullshit ... just like what you are throwing out, in reference to China.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: China - 3/3/2007 3:07:31 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

 China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.


Tibet and Vietnam might beg to differ.


I did mention Tibet in the thread.

I  forgot that consistency isn't a strong point in your arguments.  Sorry.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: China - 3/3/2007 3:13:10 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You are missing the point, this thread is about China, not Japan, who just happens to be an ally of the USA. China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one! To somehow to consider China an international threat because they have invaded no one is either belly laughing hilarious or freakily paranoid.
China has invaded no one. No matter how much you try to muddy the water that fact still stands, China has invaded no one, repeat, no one!

Pretty emphatic, there, meat.  And as has been pointed out ... simply wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As for Russia, it is a European country and culture. It has to deal with China because China is a neighbour but 90% of all Russians live in European Russia or other eastern European countries. To say Russia is not a European country is a nonsense. It might not be a western European country but it is European and has been a major player in European culture.


Among people who actually study Russian history, the question of Asiatic versus European influences is a very important question.  Generally, the founding of St Petersburg (later Leningrad) was seen as the point where they intentionally tried to weigh in as "European" rather than Asian.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

You brought Ghengis Khan up.


Yep, I sure did.  I contend he represented forces that did more damage to the region known as China than any westerner could have.  I contend he was no different than any of the other leaders who would come to rule China.

 
Yes he did do great damage to China but he's still not Chineese and it is mad and dangerous China we are talking about.


And, a study of Chinese history would show you that the Mongols - after their conquest of what is historically known as China - intermarried and intermingled, so there is really a good point to saying that Ghengis Khan and the mongols actually become the "founders" of the current Chinese population.

In other words .... you could say that Ghengis Khan was Chinese.

FirmKY




_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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