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aSlavesLife -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 6:50:53 AM)

Rule,
As the Bible says that a bastard child is unworthy of entering the house of God, this is a far cry from the kid being the hope of mankind.

The whole idea of making Jesus be a virgin birth was due to the new testament authors trying to tie Jesus with an alleged prophecy in Isaiah.
   
     Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorests shall be forsaken of both her kings." 

The "land that thou abhorest..."  refers to Damascus and Samaria, and the refuse evil/choose good reference is some point of Immanuel's development, possibly some rite of adulthood. The flaw in their logic is that Damascus and Samaria fell to Assyria in 732 b.c.e., roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.
  
Backing up just a bit, we now look at a mistranslation that leads many to assume Immanuel was Jesus. 

     Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the Lord himself shall give a sign; behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

    The mistranslation here is the word "virgin".  The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah", but the mistranslated word is "almah", which means young woman, not virgin.  Had the Hebrew meant virgin, they would have used bethulah in Isaiah 7:14, instead they used almah. So now we have a misnamed child born 700 years too soon that the authors wish to claim is Jesus because the Greeks didn't see the difference between the words and used the word parthenos to replace almah. Parthenos means young virgin woman.

As for Thomas touching his wounds, you are offering what amounts to hearsay. While there is a shift near the end of the book of John from 3rd person to 1st, the first party writer takes on a prophetic bend, which makes it appear to be a later addition to the text designed to give the illusion of prophecy. There are no eye witness accounts of a resurrection at all. There are only claims by later authors that it was witnessed, but none of the authors claim to have actually seen the resurrection event. We have better documented accounts of people seeing Bigfoot.



MsParados -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 6:57:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Rule,
As the Bible says that a bastard child is unworthy of entering the house of God, this is a far cry from the kid being the hope of mankind.


I am not familiar with this scripture please cite the location and version of bible that it is in. And the whole virgin vs young woman discussion is moot as Mary, herself, was the true immaculate conception.



aSlavesLife -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 7:39:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I am not familiar with this scripture please cite the location and version of bible that it is in. And the whole virgin vs young woman discussion is moot as Mary, herself, was the true immaculate conception.


Deu 23: 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the lord.

It becomes important when  the new testament authors try and tie Jesus into supposed prophecy in order to give him the appearance of credibility. Most of their attempts at this are sad efforts that require ignoring supportive context. For the most part the Immanuel ploy was one of their better jobs, but even it falls flat when examined.

But as for the immaculate conception, it does seem odd that Mary announces that she has been knocked up by Yahweh shortly after her visiting her cousin Elizabeth who had just recently explained away her pregnancy by claiming that her antiquated husband had been met by the angel Gabriel and had been magically endowed with fertility. Since they would probably have been stoned to death for adultry if they didn't concoct some wild story, I can't say that I would blame them.  But thanks to them education and technology gets hindered 2,000 years later because a lot of people actually still believe their story.



Rule -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 7:41:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
As the Bible says that a bastard child is unworthy of entering the house of God
Which god? I suppose that is somewhere in the old testament?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
this is a far cry from the kid being the hope of mankind.
Nevertheless Christian cultures in which all people have bastards in their ancestral lineage are the dominant cultures on Earth, whereas cultures in which the people do not are typically backwards.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
The whole idea of making Jesus be a virgin birth was due to the new testament authors trying to tie Jesus with an alleged prophecy in Isaiah.
The evidence available indicates that the hymen of Mary was not broken when she conceived by Panthera. Anyway, it offered an opportunity to neutralize that misinterpreted prophecy in Isaiah.
  
    Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorests shall be forsaken of both her kings." 

The "land that thou abhorest..."  refers to Damascus and Samaria, and the refuse evil/choose good reference is some point of Immanuel's development, possibly some rite of adulthood. The flaw in their logic is that Damascus and Samaria fell to Assyria in 732 b.c.e., roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.
That is an interpretation. Of course the prophecy did not apply to Jesus, it applied to the time when the prophecy was made. In fact the jews had forgotten all about their history until a couple of old books were retrieved from the temple by an evil priest - if I recall correctly - and then they misinterpreted what was in them, as lesser minds are wont to do.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Backing up just a bit, we now look at a mistranslation that leads many to assume Immanuel was Jesus. 

    Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the Lord himself shall give a sign; behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

   The mistranslation here is the word "virgin".  The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah", but the mistranslated word is "almah", which means young woman, not virgin.  Had the Hebrew meant virgin, they would have used bethulah in Isaiah 7:14, instead they used almah. So now we have a misnamed child born 700 years too soon that the authors wish to claim is Jesus because the Greeks didn't see the difference between the words and used the word parthenos to replace almah. Parthenos means young virgin woman.
It seems to me that it is of more interest how Mary and her associates interpreted Isaiah. I doubt that they read the Greek 'mistranslation'. So it seems likely to me that the Greek translation was correct. Likely the term young woman / virgin refers to the virgin goddess, the pure one, unblemished by evil. I doubt that Mary was an incarnation of that goddess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
As for Thomas touching his wounds, you are offering what amounts to hearsay. While there is a shift near the end of the book of John from 3rd person to 1st, the first party writer takes on a prophetic bend, which makes it appear to be a later addition to the text designed to give the illusion of prophecy. There are no eye witness accounts of a resurrection at all. There are only claims by later authors that it was witnessed, but none of the authors claim to have actually seen the resurrection event. We have better documented accounts of people seeing Bigfoot.
It sure did convince a lot of people at the time and at that location. It seems to me that their conviction is worth more than the opinion of someone who was not there and lives two thousand years later.



aSlavesLife -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 8:11:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
As the Bible says that a bastard child is unworthy of entering the house of God
Which god? I suppose that is somewhere in the old testament?
 
Yahweh, didn't you read the bible?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
this is a far cry from the kid being the hope of mankind.
Nevertheless Christian cultures in which all people have bastards in their ancestral lineage are the dominant cultures on Earth, whereas cultures in which the people do not are typically backwards.
 
Which has nothing at all to do with your claim.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
The whole idea of making Jesus be a virgin birth was due to the new testament authors trying to tie Jesus with an alleged prophecy in Isaiah.
The evidence available indicates that the hymen of Mary was not broken when she conceived by Panthera. Anyway, it offered an opportunity to neutralize that misinterpreted prophecy in Isaiah.
 
Very little indication that Panthera was his father, let alone her being a virgin. If you have evidence otherwise....

   Isaiah 7:16, "For before the child shall know to refuse evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorests shall be forsaken of both her kings." 

The "land that thou abhorest..."  refers to Damascus and Samaria, and the refuse evil/choose good reference is some point of Immanuel's development, possibly some rite of adulthood. The flaw in their logic is that Damascus and Samaria fell to Assyria in 732 b.c.e., roughly 700 years before Jesus was born.

That is an interpretation. Of course the prophecy did not apply to Jesus, it applied to the time when the prophecy was made. In fact the jews had forgotten all about their history until a couple of old books were retrieved from the temple by an evil priest - if I recall correctly - and then they misinterpreted what was in them, as lesser minds are wont to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Backing up just a bit, we now look at a mistranslation that leads many to assume Immanuel was Jesus. 

   Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore, the Lord himself shall give a sign; behold a Virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

  The mistranslation here is the word "virgin".  The Hebrew word for virgin is "bethulah", but the mistranslated word is "almah", which means young woman, not virgin.  Had the Hebrew meant virgin, they would have used bethulah in Isaiah 7:14, instead they used almah. So now we have a misnamed child born 700 years too soon that the authors wish to claim is Jesus because the Greeks didn't see the difference between the words and used the word parthenos to replace almah. Parthenos means young virgin woman.
It seems to me that it is of more interest how Mary and her associates interpreted Isaiah. I doubt that they read the Greek 'mistranslation'. So it seems likely to me that the Greek translation was correct. Likely the term young woman / virgin refers to the virgin goddess, the pure one, unblemished by evil. I doubt that Mary was an incarnation of that goddess.
 
Which virgin goddess? Seems as though only 1 goddess was mentioned in the Bible, Asherah, and she was hardly a virgin.


quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
As for Thomas touching his wounds, you are offering what amounts to hearsay. While there is a shift near the end of the book of John from 3rd person to 1st, the first party writer takes on a prophetic bend, which makes it appear to be a later addition to the text designed to give the illusion of prophecy. There are no eye witness accounts of a resurrection at all. There are only claims by later authors that it was witnessed, but none of the authors claim to have actually seen the resurrection event. We have better documented accounts of people seeing Bigfoot.

It sure did convince a lot of people at the time and at that location. It seems to me that their conviction is worth more than the opinion of someone who was not there and lives two thousand years later.
 
Then we are to accept the resurrection of Osiris, Dionysus, and Tammuz as well? Lots of people believed that they were resurrected too. And for that matter, not many people in that area bought into it. It seems to have caught on in Rome, not Israel, replacing the Mithras cult in popularity. It also took a couple hundred years for it to take over even in Rome, so it certainly did not convince " a lot of people at the time and at that location. "




Rule -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 8:43:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Deu 23: 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the lord.
A law! Issued at a time when the Shepherd came to power.
Anyway, among the gods Satan is the law-giver and this evil law has his smell on it.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Which god? I suppose that is somewhere in the old testament?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Yahweh, didn't you read the bible?

Yes, once, about twenty years ago. More importantly: I understood what I read.
Anyway, as different gods acquired power in Heaven, people on Earth were ruled by different gods at various times. This is also true of the jews.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Which has nothing at all to do with your claim.

You lack the wherewithal to acertain that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Very little indication that Panthera was his father, let alone her being a virgin. If you have evidence otherwise....

It suffices for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Which virgin goddess? Seems as though only 1 goddess was mentioned in the Bible, Asherah, and she was hardly a virgin.

Perhaps you should read up on mythology? Though the Bible does have interesting additional information, it has been both mythologically and theologially severely censored to the point of becoming a caricature.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Then we are to accept the resurrection of Osiris, Dionysus, and Tammuz as well?

Most certainly!
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife
Lots of people believed that they were resurrected too. And for that matter, not many people in that area bought into it. It seems to have caught on in Rome, not Israel, replacing the Mithras cult in popularity. It also took a couple hundred years for it to take over even in Rome, so it certainly did not convince " a lot of people at the time and at that location. "

They still suffer because of their unbelief. Inherited genetic defects are six times more prevalent among jews and muslims than among christians.



ferryman777 -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 8:59:16 AM)

Oh please, please people. You banter wrtitings that are a construct of the Church of England created, devised to control the masses. The key phrase is 'The King James Version'; ...key word....version; a governmental devised publication of so called spiritual writings. The Holy Bible -King James Version. Control the mind and the body follows.....and besides it's a fantastic money maker. I particularly like the very end where it reads and condems, that no one shall either take away nor add to the book. Rather lets it be known there is absolutely no venue allowed for any other thought. That pretty much sums it up. A truly fascist book as ever devised.
Now that a nazi sits on the throne of the most powerful religious organization in the world, as the vicar of christ.....a nazi, mind you....that should tell you something.
You guys have way too much time on your hands; debating such nosense.



meatcleaver -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 9:15:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

Oh please, please people. You banter wrtitings that are a construct of the Church of England created, devised to control the masses. The key phrase is 'The King James Version'; ...key word....version; a governmental devised publication of so called spiritual writings. The Holy Bible -King James Version. Control the mind and the body follows.....and besides it's a fantastic money maker. I particularly like the very end where it reads and condems, that no one shall either take away nor add to the book. Rather lets it be known there is absolutely no venue allowed for any other thought. That pretty much sums it up. A truly fascist book as ever devised.
Now that a nazi sits on the throne of the most powerful religious organization in the world, as the vicar of christ.....a nazi, mind you....that should tell you something.
You guys have way too much time on your hands; debating such nosense.


Religion is bunkum but sadly many people believe in bunkum.



Zensee -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 11:54:52 AM)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Rule, aSlavesLife, where the only rules are Rule's rules. I wonder what they will be tomorow.



Z.



calamitysandra -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 12:18:19 PM)

If this is "The Jesus", and his mother is also in the grave, it would open a nice possibility. 
Substract the DNA of Mary from the DNA of Jesus, and you have the DNA of God.[:D]




justheather -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 12:29:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

Thing here is simple.  Do we believe in the bible?  If so, what is Easter?

If we don't believe in the bible, what are we doing believing in Jesus to begin with?




Thanfully, the thing here is nowhere near that simple for me.

PS If you investigate the Easter myth, you will find themes that date back thousands of years before anyone ever uttered the name "Jesus".



justheather -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 12:32:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

Mary, herself, was the true immaculate conception.


A lot of people confuse the concept of "Immaculate Conception" (being born with out original sin) and Virgin Birth (being conceived by the grace of the spirit of God).



MsPoetress -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 7:23:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Any child conceived in love outside marriage - thus not begotten by a husband - is a child of the god of beginnings - and the new hope of mankind.


Oh NO! I might be the new hope of mankind?

Darn it so much responsibilty...

~poe



MsPoetress -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 7:25:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

If this is "The Jesus", and his mother is also in the grave, it would open a nice possibility. 
Substract the DNA of Mary from the DNA of Jesus, and you have the DNA of God.[:D]




We have the technology to rebuild him...to make God. Go unto the world and seek funds. [:D]

~poe



MsParados -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 9:31:36 PM)

ASL in my translation Dueteronomy 23:2 reads, "no ones whose testicles have been crushed or whose penis is cut off, may be admitted into the community of the Lord."

Which might have been one of those rules that were removed with the new testament. This is from The new American bible btw, unfortunatly most only know of The King James.

As for the whole third hand reference(chinese whispers/telephone), we can not over look Saul (St. Paul) who was anti-jesus and a persecutor of the first christans being struck blind after interacting with the risen Christ. Paul went on to become the most prolific writer of the New Testament after his conversion. Does most of your info come strictly from a bible or are you also familiar with the Apocrypha ?



MsParados -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/5/2007 9:55:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

If this is "The Jesus", and his mother is also in the grave, it would open a nice possibility. 
Substract the DNA of Mary from the DNA of Jesus, and you have the DNA of God.[:D]




We have the technology to rebuild him...to make God. Go unto the world and seek funds. [:D]

~poe


That made me think of that scene in Jurassic Park I.... Where the end of it is "Dinosaurs eat man; woman kind inherits the earth." :))



MasDom -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/12/2007 1:00:20 PM)

My great ancestor is in a picture that includes the day of the crusifixion...

He's sitting on a wall with a sword in its scabbard.
looking down at Jesus walking by.

Written under it is the word brother...
   Course who knows.
Maybe the pic was made by some Scot way back when as a joke...
Or maybe as a reference to understanding fellowship.



Sinergy -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/12/2007 4:35:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

If this is "The Jesus", and his mother is also in the grave, it would open a nice possibility. 
Substract the DNA of Mary from the DNA of Jesus, and you have the DNA of God.[:D]




We have the technology to rebuild him...to make God. Go unto the world and seek funds. [:D]

~poe


Not with Monkeyboy in charge.

Sinergy 



candystripper -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/12/2007 4:41:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

I can just see Maury Povich announcing, "In the case of 2,041 year old Jesus Christ, God, you ARE the father!"  

Or, worse scenario, "God, you are NOT the father!"  Lightning flashes, thunder rolls, the Virgin Mary runs backstage and throws herself sobbing on the couch.....

I'd better head to church now, and pray for my soul.


That is tooooooo Fucking funnnyyy!!!!  Of  course you did leave out the part where God runs through the audience handing out spontaneous high fives...only to return to the stage to perform the obligatory "I'm not the baby's daddy dance"......


Ok, these two posts made me spit soda on the monitor laughing.  Y/you will find me in confession this Saturday, ROFLMAO.
 
candystripper



FreshBread -> RE: aaah Jesus? (3/12/2007 7:22:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Any child conceived in love outside marriage - thus not begotten by a husband - is a child of the god of beginnings - and the new hope of mankind.

I'm the product of unwed teenage lovers....mankind is in trouble.....



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