Masochism Redefined (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

velvetears -> Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 7:28:49 AM)

i was browsing blogs today and came across one that i believe 2 psychiatrists contribute to. i found this little piece written about masochism and how it should be put back in the DSM as a personality disorder. 

i identify as a masochist and as i read this it seemed glaringly apparent the author doesn't understand the physical aspect of experiencing pain and how euphoric that can be. Perhaps i am misinterpreting him and his focus is mainly on those in society who always seek to replay, as it were, their past experiences from childhood (assuming they had them, but according to the author all masochist do).  Are psychiatrists, therapists, etc so clueless as to the dynamic of enjoying pain??  Anyway i will cut and paste it and also post the link so you can go to the original source yourself - let me know your spin on what you read.

http://mind.in/node/310

Author: Sam Vaknin
The Masochistic personality disorder made its last appearance in the DSM III-TR and was removed from the DSM IV and from its text revision, the DSM IV-TR. Some scholars, notably Theodore Millon, regard its removal as a mistake and lobby for its reinstatement in future editions of the DSM.
The masochist has been taught from an early age to hate herself and consider herself unworthy of love and worthless as a person. Consequently, he or she is prone to self-destructive, punishing, and self-defeating behaviors. Though capable of pleasure and possessed of social skills, the masochist avoids or undermines pleasurable experiences. He does not admit to enjoying himself, seeks suffering, pain, and hurt in relationships and situations, rejects help and resents those who offer it. She actively renders futile attempts to assist or ameliorate or mitigate or solve her problems and predicaments.
These self-penalizing behaviors are self-purging: they intend to relieve the masochist of overwhelming, pent-up anxiety. The masochist's conduct is equally aimed at avoiding intimacy and its benefits: companionship and support.
Masochists tend to choose people and circumstances that inevitably and predictably lead to failure, disillusionment, disappointment, and mistreatment. Conversely, they tend to avoid relationships, interactions, and circumstances that are likely to result in success or gratification. They reject, disdain, or even suspect people who consistently treat them well. Masochists find caring, loving persons sexually unattractive.
The masochist typically adopts unrealistic goals and thus guarantees underachievement. Masochists routinely fail at mundane tasks, even when these are crucial to their own advancement and personal objectives and even when they adequately carry out similar assignments on behalf of others. The DSM gives this example: "helps fellow students write papers, but is unable to write his or her own".
When the masochist fails at these attempts at self-sabotage, he reacts with rage, depression, and guilt. She is likely to "compensate" for her undesired accomplishments and happiness by having an accident or engaging in behaviors that produce abandonment, frustration, hurt, illness, or physical pain. Some masochists make harmful self-sacrifices, uncalled for by the situation and unwanted by the intended beneficiaries or recipients.
The projective identification defense mechanism is frequently at play. The masochist deliberately provokes, solicits, and incites angry, disparaging, and rejecting responses from others in order to feel on "familiar territory": humiliated, defeated, devastated, and hurt.
---------------------------------------
About the Author:
Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Global Politician, Central Europe Review, PopMatters, Bellaonline, and eBookWeb, a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent, and the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.




jadein -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 7:43:54 AM)

It could be that they aren't clueless to people enjoying pain ... and I would wager they in fact aren't clueless about it at all ... but thier argument would be that it's not "normal" for a person to enjoy pain ... physical or otherwise.   I was a psycology major in college ... I didn't finish, but it is a passion of mine.  I can't speak as eloquently as some others might but hopefully I can get my thoughts across clearly.  Most in the psycology/psychiatry field would say it goes against human nature to seek out painful situations to thrive on it. 

I've always said that I'm a pretty neurotic person .... this lifestyle is just another notch in the neurotic belt.   I wouldn't say that I'm a physical masochist ... but I do tend to torture myself with emotional crap all the time .... I think that's probably not a good thing LOL



proudsub -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 7:47:11 AM)

quote:

i identify as a masochist and as i read this it seemed glaringly apparent the author doesn't understand the physical aspect of experiencing pain and how euphoric that can be.


I couldn't agree more. It could be that enjoying erotic pain is a different type of masochism. I don't identify with anything in that article but i do enjoy pain that enhances sexual experiences.



LokisBrat -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 7:53:28 AM)

The DSM-IV online says this about masochism:


Etiology
There are different theories related to sexual masochism, many stemming from the psychoanalytic camp. They suggest that childhood trauma (e.g., sexual abuse) or significant childhood experiences can manifest itself in exhibitionistic behavior.



Symptoms
Sexually masochistic behaviors are typically evident by early adulthood, and often start with masochistic or sadistic play in childhood. The disorder is characterized by either intense sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors in which the individual is humiliated, beaten, bound, or made to suffer in some way.







The bolding is mine.
In my opinion, based on what I'm being taught in university, there are two different schools of thought in the field, and of course regarding masochism. Psychiatry, based in psychoanalysis (largely due to Freud) sees it as a response to childhood. 
While psychology, where my major is, states that it can be a personality facet that just occurs, although the link I used here didn't state this.


My point is that in the courses I take, the experience of pain as pleasure is not unacceptable, but rather a difference in "wiring" if you will. It is something that occurs in some percentage of people to some extent quite commonly.
Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of research on this that is taught on campus.
In research studies on things like body aversion disorders, where people have gone so
far as to force the amputation of their own limbs, the psychiatry field says that "something must have happened in childhood, and this is an aberration."


The psychology field says "it's likely that this person just IS this way, let's see if we can determine where the differences in wiring lie."

I'm not sure any of that helped, but I was inspired to answer.



Edited to fix typos....


Brat[:)]



juliaoceania -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:00:19 AM)

I think that much of what he wrote can describe me at times in my life, and I think that many people fit some of this at some point in their lives.

I am happier and more well adjusted since I embraced my masochism, so his observations just seem silly to me. Just because many masochists display a certain subset of behaviors and personality traits does not  mean it is related to their masochism.. My masochism is physical, not emotional.. and there is a difference between the two that this guy does not seem to understand. Perhaps we should write him? I am a pretty high functioning person in many ways, and a lot of masochists are.

Edited to add, I was never sexually abused as a child



jadein -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:04:46 AM)

Great answer brat ... I haven't been in school for 7 years so I'm sure lots of things have changed since .... Common nature vs. nurture argument.



LokisBrat -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:11:56 AM)

Nature vs. Nurture indeed. Still the same old round and round, but many of my courses are now combining, or attempting to. While nurture has some effect, so does nature.  Not everyone who is masochistic will have a history of abuse, but in a large cross section of any population you can find cutters, sexual masochists, addicts of any sort, those who remain in abusive relationships because they feel they deserve it, the list is endless.  In the end though, whether they were abused or maltreated as children will not show signifigant correlation to the current circumstances in which they operate.

Brat[:)]



juliaoceania -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:16:51 AM)

I would not be surprised that some masochists are self abusive and seek S and M to further their self abuse... my question is this, are they getting sexual arousal from it, or something else?



Sunshine119 -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:39:34 AM)

My dissertation involved genetics.  During that time, I had the opportunity to engage in research on the "Twins seperated at birth" studies.  I am convinced, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that we are born with the genes that cause certain preferences.

While I do not identify with most of the description of a masochist within my non-sexual relationships, I certainly do identify with the sexual characteristics.  Frankly, I think I'm "hard-wired" that way.  When I engage in masochistic activities, I do find my life clearer overall.  It is almost like the need to eat is satiated.

While there may, or may not be a trigger necessary to set off masochistic tendencies or the level of masochism within which one engages, I believe those genes MUST be necessary in order for these characteristics to be made manifest.

As far as illness is concerned.........  I guess if taken into one's relationships and ability to function within society, it could be debilitating.  When limited to sexual activity or if the sexual activity sharpens one's ability to function within society, it could be a positive addition to one's personality.

Or, put another way, as Popeye said......"I am what I am"

Sunshine



scottjk -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 8:47:22 AM)

velvet,
    I swear, this damned interface has pissed me off. I was working on a reply and it crapped out, flushing all my work into the toilet.
So, I'll give you a short version of my reply.

What I learned about psychology is this:
It's a science based on statistics, observation and theory. Most forget that.
'Normal' is a social standard that the majority of people agree to. Thus, the DSM and it's revisions.
The word 'masochism' has a long history, and was coined long before most of us were born. Do we change the word to fit this lifestyle or do we change the word to fit the truly destructive behavior in the proposed definition for the DSM?

I can just imagine a possible session in the therapist's office, though. :)

quote:


Masochist: Doctor, I need help! Is this right?
Doctor: Well, there are two methods of treatment to choose from. You can be cured by seeing me, or you can find a sadist and make it a healthy part of your life.


I wonder how many therapists have considered or suggested such a choice?




gypsygrl -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 9:15:08 AM)

Lovely. 

Psychiatry/psychology is a business and there is probably way too small a market for the number of people looking to make an income curing people of what ails them.  I'm a masochist.  I'm a sexual masochist, a psychological/emotional masochist and an intellectual masochist.  I don't really see thats its the sort of problem psychiatry/psychology should be bothered with.  I mean, seriously, if I'm happy and satisfied, I'm happy and satisfied.  If I'm not happy and satisfied, I'm still happy and satisfied.  What use would I have for a psychiatrist?



paulthesub -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 9:32:50 AM)

I identify myself as a masochist, and I have to say that the blog you posted describes me fairly well. That being said I don't believe that my problems are a result of being a masochist, I believe they are two completely seperate dimensions in one's personality. It's like saying a car is red and it's a two-door, it's not a two-door because it's red, but it is both.



juliaoceania -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 10:00:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Lovely. 

Psychiatry/psychology is a business and there is probably way too small a market for the number of people looking to make an income curing people of what ails them.  I'm a masochist.  I'm a sexual masochist, a psychological/emotional masochist and an intellectual masochist.  I don't really see thats its the sort of problem psychiatry/psychology should be bothered with.  I mean, seriously, if I'm happy and satisfied, I'm happy and satisfied.  If I'm not happy and satisfied, I'm still happy and satisfied.  What use would I have for a psychiatrist?


According to what I have read about treating disorders, is it does not rise to the level of a disorder unless it impacts a person's ability to function in life. If a person is functioning and happy and not abusing others then it is not a disorder.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 10:27:09 AM)

actually much of the article describes me and my behaviors/motivations at different points throughout life. many times i would intentionally place myself in high risk, dangerous situations hoping that i would be hurt, used, abused, etc. because that fulfilled a need within me. and although i'm now in a loving, healthy relationship, i still have that same need to suffer. this is why i crave strong humiliation, degradation, abuse...to be made to feel like so much mud on the bottom of someone's shoe. probably not at all healthy by mainstream society standards, but it meshes with my Master's occasional urges for emotional sadism, so it works for us. with him guiding the ship, i know that i can't fall off that edge into total brokenness (is that a word? lol) or insanity.

for this reason i've always considered myself deep down to be a masochist, however it's not something i normally would share with other lifestylers since it's very far from what most people mean when they say masochist. i don't "like" pain, i don't become sexually aroused from pain. i'm a total pain wuss to be honest. however i do have a very strong need to suffer, both physically and emotionally (tho emotionally is definitely the more pressing of the two), and when i experience this suffering i do not feel "good", but rather i feel "right", like, this is what is meant to be, this is what i deserve/where i belong.




ownedgirlie -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 10:51:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

i don't become sexually aroused from pain. i'm a total pain wuss to be honest. however i do have a very strong need to suffer, both physically and emotionally (tho emotionally is definitely the more pressing of the two), and when i experience this suffering i do not feel "good", but rather i feel "right", like, this is what is meant to be, this is what i deserve/where i belong.


I greatly relate to this, and understand what you mean by feeling "right" vs. "good."    I also sought out relationships that proved harmful to me time and time again, and it wasn't until I wound up in my current relationship, where I could safely be emotionally degraded and humiliated, knowing that I always am within the confines of a strong and caring force, that I could end my search for self destrution by way of unhealthy relationships.  Prop mentions feeling like mud on the bottom of someone's shoe and I smile, as I have referred to being a mere spec on the bottom of his shoe.  But mud works, too. [;)]

Interestingly, I think the thread on sabotaging your chances in a relationship relates to this level of emotional masochism I have lived with.

Re: Nature vs. Nurture, I have not studied the two, but I can say my upbringing had a lot to do with fostering the mindset I later displayed in life.  Not to say nature did not play a hand, but my early conditioning trained me for this.

As for the article, perhaps it describes those who have yet to come to terms with their masochism, and who do not yet understand it.  Some of the healthiest relationships I know are those in which strong masochistic behaviors are experienced by one or more of its parties.  Most destracting to me about the article, however, was the author's inconsistency with him/her - use both or pick one or the other already!

Good post, Velvetears; makes for an interesting discussion.



DominaSmartass -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 10:51:58 AM)

I think that the clinical definitions of masochism and sadism are precisely that: clinical definitions. If a person is seeking psychatric help for these things then they are probably experiencing unhappiness surrounding them and that's what the problem really is. If you are in a relationship that you really enjoy and it involves "S/M" then you really don't fit the clinical definitions.

Just to take a small portion of the original quote:
quote:


Though capable of pleasure and possessed of social skills, the masochist avoids or undermines pleasurable experiences. He does not admit to enjoying himself, seeks suffering, pain, and hurt in relationships and situations, rejects help and resents those who offer it. She actively renders futile attempts to assist or ameliorate or mitigate or solve her problems and predicaments.

That, specifically the bold portion, doesn't sound like any self-proclaimed masochist I know. All the masochists I know personally claim to absolutely love what they do/have done to them.
quote:


These self-penalizing behaviors are self-purging: they intend to relieve the masochist of overwhelming, pent-up anxiety. The masochist's conduct is equally aimed at avoiding intimacy and its benefits: companionship and support. Masochists tend to choose people and circumstances that inevitably and predictably lead to failure, disillusionment, disappointment, and mistreatment. Conversely, they tend to avoid relationships, interactions, and circumstances that are likely to result in success or gratification. They reject, disdain, or even suspect people who consistently treat them well. Masochists find caring, loving persons sexually unattractive.

Again, dead wrong. At least when it applies to masochists by the bdsm definitions. As you can see, these psychiatrists or whoever, are clearly referring to people are not involved in a consensual relationship but rather surround themselves with people who will be abusive, perhaps subconsiously.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 10:57:53 AM)

"The masochist has been taught from an early age to hate herself and consider herself unworthy of love and worthless as a person."

I'd like to see references. This looks like an opinion to me...and a poor assumption.

Master Fire



daddysprop247 -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 11:08:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Most destracting to me about the article, however, was the author's inconsistency with him/her - use both or pick one or the other already!



you noticed that too? lol



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 12:33:43 PM)

Yeah, if you enjoy a certain aspect of sensation play, that doesn't necessarily mean anything else. We can connect all kinds of personal meanings to spacing and cumming, but it is what it is. 



wyldsubmissive -> RE: Masochism Redefined (3/4/2007 12:37:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i was browsing blogs today and came across one that i believe 2 psychiatrists contribute to. i found this little piece written about masochism and how it should be put back in the DSM as a personality disorder. 

i identify as a masochist and as i read this it seemed glaringly apparent the author doesn't understand the physical aspect of experiencing pain and how euphoric that can be. Perhaps i am misinterpreting him and his focus is mainly on those in society who always seek to replay, as it were, their past experiences from childhood (assuming they had them, but according to the author all masochist do).  Are psychiatrists, therapists, etc so clueless as to the dynamic of enjoying pain??  Anyway i will cut and paste it and also post the link so you can go to the original source yourself - let me know your spin on what you read.

http://mind.in/node/310

Author: Sam Vaknin
The Masochistic personality disorder made its last appearance in the DSM III-TR and was removed from the DSM IV and from its text revision, the DSM IV-TR. Some scholars, notably Theodore Millon, regard its removal as a mistake and lobby for its reinstatement in future editions of the DSM.
The masochist has been taught from an early age to hate herself and consider herself unworthy of love and worthless as a person. Consequently, he or she is prone to self-destructive, punishing, and self-defeating behaviors. Though capable of pleasure and possessed of social skills, the masochist avoids or undermines pleasurable experiences. He does not admit to enjoying himself, seeks suffering, pain, and hurt in relationships and situations, rejects help and resents those who offer it. She actively renders futile attempts to assist or ameliorate or mitigate or solve her problems and predicaments.
These self-penalizing behaviors are self-purging: they intend to relieve the masochist of overwhelming, pent-up anxiety. The masochist's conduct is equally aimed at avoiding intimacy and its benefits: companionship and support.
Masochists tend to choose people and circumstances that inevitably and predictably lead to failure, disillusionment, disappointment, and mistreatment. Conversely, they tend to avoid relationships, interactions, and circumstances that are likely to result in success or gratification. They reject, disdain, or even suspect people who consistently treat them well. Masochists find caring, loving persons sexually unattractive.
The masochist typically adopts unrealistic goals and thus guarantees underachievement. Masochists routinely fail at mundane tasks, even when these are crucial to their own advancement and personal objectives and even when they adequately carry out similar assignments on behalf of others. The DSM gives this example: "helps fellow students write papers, but is unable to write his or her own".
When the masochist fails at these attempts at self-sabotage, he reacts with rage, depression, and guilt. She is likely to "compensate" for her undesired accomplishments and happiness by having an accident or engaging in behaviors that produce abandonment, frustration, hurt, illness, or physical pain. Some masochists make harmful self-sacrifices, uncalled for by the situation and unwanted by the intended beneficiaries or recipients.
The projective identification defense mechanism is frequently at play. The masochist deliberately provokes, solicits, and incites angry, disparaging, and rejecting responses from others in order to feel on "familiar territory": humiliated, defeated, devastated, and hurt.
---------------------------------------
About the Author:
Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com ) is the author of Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited and After the Rain - How the West Lost the East. He served as a columnist for Global Politician, Central Europe Review, PopMatters, Bellaonline, and eBookWeb, a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent, and the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101.




Wow... Just freakin' wow. As a masochist who does it for the mental side effects because it isn't physically arousing to me I'm annoyed.

It sounds like the article just lumps in masochists with depressed people. What the hell?



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875