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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 2:35:17 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		I can imagine that some submissives ask permission for things early on in a getting-to-know-you phase of a relationship as a way of surreptitiously exerting control over the speed at which the dominant assumes control in the relationship. On one level, she appears to be tipping the power dynamic in his favor, but of course it is really all about what she wants. If I want to submit to DomlyMaster4You and he isnt assuming that role, one way to get what I want is to ask for permission to do things he has not assumed voluntary control over...another way of topping from the bottom.

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And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
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(in reply to happypervert)
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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 2:42:16 PM   
MadRabbit


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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

On the other hand, before a power exchange dynamic is fully established, the two parties begin as equals.

You may start out as equals, but there is a mating dance where you are both looking to tip the balance of power. The dominant will test and see if you consent to follow some seemingly insignificant directive so he can build from there, and by asking permission you are also giving up power to do what you want unless allowed. And so the power exchange builds piece by piece until it is fully established.



I agree completely with this right here. All my experiences have more or less gone along these lines. Its always very laid back and casual in the beginning as I get to know the other person and learn about them. As I gather information, I start to work on a plan as to how I want things to go. Like Happypervert said, the power exchange builds piece by piece with me directing it and always testing it. I will use a slave contract as it progresses so I can keep track of everything, but outside of that, there is no formal negotiations, no big petitions, and no big deal about consent. Its just another relationship developing between two people.

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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 3:21:37 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		Well, before the dynamic is established, and both parties assent to it, the idea of topping from the bottom doens't really apply in my mind.  If the relationship is still in the exploratory stage, I don't feel that I'm under any obligation to submit fully and when I get uncomfortable I think its perfectly valid to slow things down and pull back until further notice.  So, any exertion of control at this point wouldn't be "surreptitious."  I think its possible to interpret any behavior on the part of the submissive as "topping from the bottom," something I find counter productive to communication.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 3:26:07 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		You say that as you gather information, you start to work out a plan about how you want things to go.  Do you share your plan with the submissive and invite comment? You also say that its just a relationship developing between two people.  Do you think people in the general non-kink population approach relationships this way?

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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 3:39:58 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

There's some of that in my permission seeking.  But, there's also alot of "Are you sure you're ok with this?" cause I don't want to put the other person off.  I think it has to do with respect for the other person's autonomy.

I can understand that if it is an "invasion of personal space" sort of thing. Still, that implies that the permission is to perform a service, which is another way to ease into submission and tip the balance of power, but with a new partner you want to make sure an attempt to please doesn't do exactly the opposite.

I could be way off base here because I'm reading into generalities thinking of my own examples while you may have completely different examples in mind. But this figuring out a new partner phase may be more interesting than what goes once a couple is settled in, so I'm tossing out ideas anyway.



No, you're not off base.  This is more what I'm getting at although I would say I'm more concerned to find out if they want to go ahead and tip the balance of power and pursue a D/s relationship or do something else.  Service is  an invasion of personal space, so I don't really broach that subject--except under direct orders--until well into the exploratory stage.  Often I find that the other person doesn't want any service (other than sex) which is understandable. But, I would say very clear permission is absolutely necessary for things to go in this direction.


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 3:43:03 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: liljoy

i think for me it is more an attempt to be pleasing to make sure that what i wanted to do was going to be ok. The fact that They found it a source of frustration for Them was confusing as all get out to me. The only thing i could figure is that They saw it as trying to force more control on them than They wanted to take


Right.  This is where I find things get confusing.  I'm trying not to cede more power than they're comfortable taking and they see my attempts to moderate myself as giving up more power than they want.  It kind of makes me laugh when I think about it.


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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 3:58:47 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Exactly!! it caused frustration on both sides and lots of confusion for me.
here is an example. we are working on a project together. i'd ask permission to pause and get up to get a drink. it wasn't the fact that i wanting something to drink but the fact that i had asked. which to me just seems respectful

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Right.  This is where I find things get confusing.  I'm trying not to cede more power than they're comfortable taking and they see my attempts to moderate myself as giving up more power than they want.  It kind of makes me laugh when I think about it.


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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 4:12:07 PM   
justheather


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Joined: 10/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

So, any exertion of control at this point wouldn't be "surreptitious."  I think its possible to interpret any behavior on the part of the submissive as "topping from the bottom," something I find counter productive to communication.


If a couple are exploring the idea of power exchange and the submissive in question has not been invited to offer her submission to the Dom, yet she asks him for permission to do things that any other person would have domain over in their own life...that an unowned sub or slave would not normally have to get permission to do, I think it is quite reasonable to argue that one of her possible motivations is to push the power-dynamic that does not yet exist into being.

As for any behavior being possibly viewed as topping from the bottome, yes I can see how applying that label randomly or carelessly would be counter-productive to communication, but to dismiss the entire concept on the basis of people mis-applying or mis-identifying is a pretty broad sweep and no more productive in terms of communication than dismissing it out of hand.

Im not sure if I misread the OP or not, but I dont understand what your point about a submissive slowing things down has to do with my comment. My answer was in response to HappyPervert about the natural unfolding of the power exchange relationship and how some people may attempt to speed it up using "asking permission". It was not a comment about the motivation of the OP.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 4:13:58 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		Its a little different, but I do that all the time: ask permission for little things if I'm doing someone with someone.  I do it with everyone, D or not.  It just seems polite to tell 1) tell someone I'm leaving and 2) make sure they don't mind.  That doesn't have a whole lot to do with power exchange, but I've been told it makes me a really good submissive.  I've also been told it makes me a doormat.



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 4:18:06 PM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
Status: offline 		I do ask permission for things such as going on a trip, or anything I feel He might question.  He never told me to do this, I simply chose to and it seems to please Him when I do. 

I think the first thing I asked about was about 3 weeks after I chose to submit to Him..... the local BDSM group, of which I know no one, mentioned on an email list that they were gonna meet up at the local Ren Faire.  I had been wanting to go to the faire, and thought this would be a good chance to meet the local folks.  I wouldn't have asked His permission to go the faire, but because I wanted to meet other BDSM people, I decided it was better to ask.  He said yes, go and enjoy yourself.

Not long ago, He told me to go have my yearly gyno visit and it ended with the doctor advising me to have a hysterectomy.  It wasn't an absolute necessity at this point, but needed to be done before long.  I talked to Him about it and sought His guidance.  He said 'get it done', so I did.

I don't want to be micromanaged, nor does he have the time to do that, but like happypervert said, I do feel that each time I seek his permission and/or guidance on something, it tilts the power balance in His favor and it makes me feel more submissive to Him, and it seems to please Him.


(in reply to liljoy)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/5/2007 4:18:20 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		Ok.  I assumed you were responding to my general line of thinking. My appologies.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/6/2007 2:54:20 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		If you ask permission of everyone, D or not, wouldn't that be apparent as part of your *style or nature*, after a short time, to someone with moderate observancy skills? It needn't be any more than what it is.

agirl









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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/6/2007 4:17:47 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		In general, I agree with you 100%, it should be obvious to someone that its not really submitting, but just my way of doing things.  

But, thus far, my experience has been limited to one on one D/s interactions and scene events with almost no casual interaction.  Until recently, I've never spent more than four hours or so with a Dominant.  (The first time I spent more than just a couple hours with a Dominant was sheer torture.  The second time I almost threw a temper tantrum. The third time was just hard.  I was involved with one where, after a year or so, we tried to expand our relationship and do more together and I realized I really didn't like him that much and there really anywhere to take the relationship.)

So, in general, the D wouldn't have any opportunity to observe me in my day to day life.  Combine that with the fact that everyone I've met has been through the internet and its easy to see how things get distorted.    This became a real issue in one relationship where 9 months into it I was like, "So, whats going on, when are we gonna get started? And he was like, "What do you mean?"  He was happy with what he perceived my level of submission to be, but, in my head, I wasn't being submissive; I was just being me.  Our biggest source of conflict seemed to be that I couldn't submit to him outside a real hard physical scene and he thought I was already submitting.  I loved playing, but I don't want to be beaten into submission. 

It may be simply a case of there being no there there and me making more of power exchange than there is or could be.


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“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/6/2007 10:19:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am one of these people that hates imposing on other people. I will inconvenience myself very much as to not even slightly inconvenience another. I am just like that, and I am like that when it comes to my relationship. I want to make sure he wants whatever power I hand over to him, to do otherwise is almost like dominating him with my submissiveness... so I think I get what you are saying.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/7/2007 4:20:32 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I suppose the problem is just not really knowing the other person, because part of that is getting to know the *everyday* person.

Who you are, outside of the four hour *bubble* of  interaction, is who you are the majority of the time and, in my view, it's far more important.

How you deal with life and people, act and react, is the meat on the bones, and you have to be seen as a whole.

You mentioned that you do it *early on*. Does that mean, after a while, you are more sure of what's expected and don't feel the same need to do so?

Even so, if someone has been around you for 9 months or a year, they must notice your character traits and be able to know whether you're being submissive or submitting to THEM.

I understand what you're saying about *giving more power* than a D might want, but anyone worth their salt can actually BE in control of what they take and won't have it foisted on them, in any case.

Regards, agirl











 

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/7/2007 7:32:37 AM   
BRNaughtyAngel


Posts: 1821
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am one of these people that hates imposing on other people. I will inconvenience myself very much as to not even slightly inconvenience another. I am just like that, and I am like that when it comes to my relationship. I want to make sure he wants whatever power I hand over to him, to do otherwise is almost like dominating him with my submissiveness... so I think I get what you are saying.


You sound like me.  I also hate bothering/imposing on others and will suffer or inconvenience myself so as not to do that.  I'll only call Him if it's really important or if He has instructed me to call.

Your whole post could have been written by me, so I guess I shoulda just said, ditto. 

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/7/2007 8:32:04 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Even so, if someone has been around you for 9 months or a year, they must notice your character traits and be able to know whether you're being submissive or submitting to THEM.

A few ideas crossed my mind about this, the four hour visits and a few other things:

1. perhaps her normal traits are like the submissive traits of another gal he knew, so he could *think* she was submitting to him
2. perhaps she has actually paired up with guys who are better described as tops, and so submission outside of a scene isn't important to them

Anyway, just throwing that in as more food for thought.


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RE: Consent and Permission - 3/7/2007 10:50:56 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

Even so, if someone has been around you for 9 months or a year, they must notice your character traits and be able to know whether you're being submissive or submitting to THEM.

A few ideas crossed my mind about this, the four hour visits and a few other things:

1. perhaps her normal traits are like the submissive traits of another gal he knew, so he could *think* she was submitting to him
2. perhaps she has actually paired up with guys who are better described as tops, and so submission outside of a scene isn't important to them

Anyway, just throwing that in as more food for thought.



The first would seem unlikely unless the second was the case, I'd think. But certainly possible.

agirl

(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Consent and Permission - 3/9/2007 9:03:39 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I want to thank everyone for their responses.  I had worked out a detailed reply the other night, and went to post it but, when I hit ok it so happened that I was timed out and the thing vanished into cyberspace.  I was like, ack! and didn't feel up to rewriting it.

quote:

  I don't want to be micromanaged, nor does he have the time to do that, but like happypervert said, I do feel that each time I seek his permission and/or guidance on something, it tilts the power balance in His favor and it makes me feel more submissive to Him, and it seems to please Him.


BRNaughtyAngel, this seems to me to be the sort of permission that is part and parcel of power exchange.  This kind of permission seeking is itself an act of submission and, in my mind at least, assumes that the relationship is already established. 

In general, if I was talking to/ interacting with someone on a regular basis in a kind of exploratory way, but hadn't made an explicit committment to a D/s dynamic, I might tell the other my plans or ask some advice on a relatively minor matter, but wouldn't feel it to be appropriate to seek permission for a given course of action that didn't have any direct impact on them.  In my mind, it would assume too much on their part, and could be misleading.

quote:

I want to make sure he wants whatever power I hand over to him, to do otherwise is almost like dominating him with my submissiveness... so I think I get what you are saying.


JuliaOceania, yes!  That's exactly what I'm getting at.  (I was hoping you'd have a thought to share here.) 

I know, in an objective sense, that subissive behaviors are a form of power employed by 'the weak' to assert their interests.  In my regular life, I'm really good at this and consider it to be a really useful, survivial skill (For example, when I'm applying for food stamps, or trying to get services for my son who's disabled.  I'm not going to risk pissing off the person evaluating my application and use specific, stereotypically submissive behaviors to affect the outcome.)  In the context of D/s however, I do think using these powers without consent/permission to be inappropriate because D and s are, in principle, equals especially before the relationship is established.  (The food stamp worker has real power over me while the D only has as much power as I give him.)

quote:

You mentioned that you do it *early on*. Does that mean, after a while, you are more sure of what's expected and don't feel the same need to do so?


Right.  The more comfortable I become with a person, the less I need permission for basic things, such as calling them or e-mailing them. 

quote:

I understand what you're saying about *giving more power* than a D might want, but anyone worth their salt can actually BE in control of what they take and won't have it foisted on them, in any case.


agirl: I agree, but I guess I'm thinking that this is the sort of thing that "just happens" when it might be useful and avoid a lot of confusion if it were actively disscussed. 

quote:

A few ideas crossed my mind about this, the four hour visits and a few other things:

1. perhaps her normal traits are like the submissive traits of another gal he knew, so he could *think* she was submitting to him
2. perhaps she has actually paired up with guys who are better described as tops, and so submission outside of a scene isn't important to them

Anyway, just throwing that in as more food for thought.


happypervert, I really have no idea.  lol  When I started this stuff, I had just come out of a 16 year relationship (11 of them married), wasn't yet divorced, and still kind of hoping that my now-ex would somehow magically change his mind about our marriage and decide to try couples counseling (or something like that) I didn't want to commit to anything relationship-wise and not sure if I wanted someone in my life at all.  I was open about all this and was very clearly taking an experimental approach to D/s.  Getting together with someone for brief bubbles of time seemed like an ok way to experiment.  I brought it up earlier in this thread to illustrate how a distortion could happen such that my basic way of doing life could be confused with active submission to a specific Dominant.

Ok, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this anymore but it dawned on me that I had never seen a discussion of how the s-side getting consent from the D-side and it struck me as a really interesting issue. 

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin


(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 39
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