RE: Desire

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AquaticSub -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 1:35:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: losttreasure Where did this strange idea come from that “I don’t want to be in control” means “I don’t want my desires fulfilled”? One could just as easily ask, "how has 'submission' been twisted into nothing more than a method of getting one's own way?" Fulfillment of the desire of submission is easy enough; it comes through submission itself. Being allowed to serve and obey one you adore should provide a very warm glow inside you. If one sees submission merely as a means to acquire any number of ends, he or she is bending for what is essentially nothing more than a series of 'gifts' that serve the giver. Things are not that simple. I don't get a warm glow when I'm told to pause my video game to go reheat leftovers and bring them to him. It's a fucking pain in the ass and I'll shed the "mystique" of the submissive enough to admit it. However, I live for the head scratch and the "good kitten" that follows it. A submissive or a slave generally does not see her submission as a means to acquire various goodies. It's my lifestyle. It makes me happy. However, if Valyraen stops caring about my wants and desires, if he suddenly stops enjoying seeing me smile when truly happy - well then he doesn't love me. And if he doesn't love me, then he simply won't have me. I don't care about presents and material goods. But for me, if you love someone, if you even simply care about them, then you want them to happy. And you won't have a problem fulfilling what desires of theirs are possible within reason. Valyraen doesn't do every thing little my heart desires, but he does what he can and what I've earned.

MadRabbit -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 3:30:51 PM)
Awesome replies. Padriag said pretty much everything I could say, but twice as well. All I can really do is chime in and ask the question of "When did this strange idea come up that "I don't want to be in control" equates to "I still get to decide if my desires get fulfilled or not." The "I want my submissive cake and eat it too" syndrome as I have taken to calling it. Yes, no relationship can be solely about one person. Both people need to be fulfilled. But when you submit to someone and give up control, when where and how those desires get fulfilled is no longer at your discretion. However, when someone submits and gives up power to me, then with that power comes the responsibility to make sure both people in the relationship are fulfilled. If I am not meeting that responsibility, then you shouldn't be with me. The realities of submission tend to smack people in the face pretty hard. Its not all about lying around on a pile of pillows chained to the floor in skimpy clothing being pampered all day. I have encountered more than one person who was submissive to their own fantasies and not willing to submit to an actual person. They were more than willing to do what got them hot, erotic, or wet, but when it came to the realties of chores and actual service, they want to pick and choose. (I had someone try and put "exercise" as a hard limit with me once) Now as I talk to potential partners when I have the time, I talk less about what gets them "hot and erotic" and more about if they can find fulfillment in their submission. I am looking for someone who will suffer threw waking up before me and fixing my coffee on a cold morning to bring to me in bed solely for the moment when I grab them by the hair, pull them close and say "Good girl." To me at least, someone who desires me to tie them up and spank them is a bottom. Someone who desires to make me happy, to focus on pleasing me, to find fulfillment in my gratitude and praise, is a submissive I want.

defiantbadgirl -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 3:55:47 PM)
"Power exchange relationships are predicated on the control of one person over another." I never have understood how TPE (total power exchange) means one person controls another. Total power yes, but add the word exchange and it sounds like something switches do.

pdubau -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 3:58:41 PM)
This is an interesting thread. As I am new, I struggle with the needs/wants/expectations etc. of a slave. By looking at the posts, I'll be struggling with it even when I am a "veteran". I do find it interesting, that I as a Dom would be expected to provide everything. So, shouldn't I get everything I want in return? Makes sense to me. Yet some slaves feel they have "needs" which I view as "wants", hence the delima. Add on top of that that I have been told by many slaves that wow, I thought it was a "need" but then my Master showed me the way, and now it is a "want" adds many variabiles in the equation of figuring it out. So now, when a slave comes to you with a "need", how do you know it truely is? Interesting.

liljoy -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 5:00:44 PM)
my needs are simple food, shelter, fluids, family, rest and affection. everything else falls under wants and desires well i do need to cum sometimes too

Padriag -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 5:46:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Awesome replies. Padriag said pretty much everything I could say, but twice as well. Thanks, you make some good points yourself. I think I expressed what was probably on the mind of quite a few dominants. quote: The "I want my submissive cake and eat it too" syndrome as I have taken to calling it. Yes, no relationship can be solely about one person. Both people need to be fulfilled. But when you submit to someone and give up control, when where and how those desires get fulfilled is no longer at your discretion. However, when someone submits and gives up power to me, then with that power comes the responsibility to make sure both people in the relationship are fulfilled. If I am not meeting that responsibility, then you shouldn't be with me. I think some of this may be the "submissive cake and eat it too syndrome" as you called it, not a bad name for it btw. But I also wonder if there's something else at the root of this. I've been mulling over today as I have had time (which hasn't been much, I've a lot going on and a lot that is more important on my mind right now). More on that below. I think its dangerous though, in that last statment, for a dominant to aspire to taking on responsibility for fulfilling a submissive. It is terribly romantic to think we could, but not very realistic. We can meet or at least attend to their needs. Its one thing to be responsible for the general welfare of another human being, to see to basic needs, to work to provide those things that they need to function as a healthy human being. As dominants we can (or should be able to) provide food, shelter, clothing (when allowed [;)] ), affection, time for family and friends, etc. These are things that as human beings we can reasonably do and be expected to do, they are reasonable responsibilities. But to take on trying to ensure that another human being is fulfilled as a human being... that's stepping into being super-human I think. I can, as a dominant, offer guidance and advice on life, I can create boundaries and I can even create a structured environment where a submissive is more likely to succeed at her goals. But I can't fulfill her as a human being, I can't make her "whole", that has to come from within herself. I can lead, I can teach, I can live as an example... but you can't make a horse drink. We are dominants, not miracle workers. As I said above, I wonder if there is more to this. I noticed how quick needs got mixed into this and it has left me thinking. There is part of me that is annoyed by that. I see so many people that can't tell the difference between a need and a want. Its a bit like the girl I mentioned in another thread who felt she "needed" her DVD collection and cable TV... even though she was $20,000 dollars in debt. That boggles my mind. Its personally offensive to me because I've had to work very hard in my life for everything I have, no one gave me a free ride... and I'm damn proud of the fact that I have no credit card debt and keep it that way. I also felt the hair on the back of my neck stand up when abuse got mentioned. This thread started out talking about wants and desires, quickly mixed needs in, then started talking about abusive doms. That it actually did start going in that direction concerned me a bit but also left me wondering about why. I wonder if some of this isn't really about very afraid submissives seeking guarantees from dominants for all the fears that plague their minds. I wonder that precisely because of how quick abuse and needs were brought up even though that wasn't the topic nor had any dom involved in the thread even remotely implied that needs wouldn't be met or that they believed in doing anything abusive. To me that sounds very much like irrational fear talking. I wonder if that was what this thread was really about from the beginning, just not stated openly. If so, then I'll address that point and leave it open for other dominants to add their thoughts. I believe that it is the responsibility of a dominant to meet the needs of a submissive. And I believe those needs are more than just bread and water and shelter. Wildfleurs gave a definition of needs that is remarkably close to one given by Nathaniel Branden in his book "The Six Pillars of Self Esteem". He wrote, "A need is that which is required for our effective functioning. We do not merely want food and water, we need them; without them, we die." It would be impossible to make an exhaustive list of needs, some of them will vary from one submissive to the next (because some people need things others do not). But a dominant has a responsibility to use that definition to the best of their ability to identify and attend to the needs of any submissive in their care. Their general well-being is our responsibility so far as it is humanly possible for us to provide for that. Beyond that, no one has a responsibility to fulfill another human being. And no one in life should get a free ride. That we all have wants and desires is not in doubt. That we all must earn those rewards in life is also a fact. For any of us, our wants and desires are a luxury and a privelege we must earn.

Invictus754 -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 5:57:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag No... and here lies the crux of your misunderstanding and double standard. I confront her with reality, that if she wants something she must work for it like the rest of us. If she wants to better her education, then she must work at that. If she wants me to grant a desire, then she will have to earn it. This is the same reality of life the dominant faces, excepting that we can expect no one to grant us anything. There are many personal desires I have in life (and many of them very ambitious), if I am to have any of them I must earn them on my own. If a submissive expects me to grant some desire, then she is also placing herself in my debt. I expect her to pay that debt by earning it through some service to me. If she wants, for example, a new dress and expects me to buy it for her, then she will have to earn it as a reward and I will set tasks for her appropriate to that. If she wants to study a new language she can go to school or else she can ask that I provide her with materials to do so (which I will again expect her to earn). That I may sometimes grant her desires simply because it pleases me to do so is also only at my discretion, it is in no way an obligation. That I may choose to give her gifts because I wish to, perhaps out of love or affection or admiration or whatever else may motivate me is a gift precisely because it was not an obligation. Such obligations as you suggest sour and make bitter of everything that else would have been sweet. What I find flatly offensive is this notion that a submissive may place upon the dominant the expectation and burden of fulfilling her desires... for free, that he is obligated to provide them at her whim. It smacks of exactly how spoiled, lazy and petulant much of this world has become. So let me be blunt to any submissive reading this. In my house you earn your keep. If you want your desires granted... you either work for them on your own or you earn them from me... but either way you will apply yourself. This deserves a standing ovation!

amayos -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 6:27:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos Fulfillment of the desire of submission is easy enough; it comes through submission itself. Being allowed to serve and obey one you adore should provide a very warm glow inside you. If one sees submission merely as a means to acquire any number of ends, he or she is bending for what is essentially nothing more than a series of 'gifts' that serve the giver. quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I don't think slaves are generally that simple though. From what I've felt and known, the nature of the spirit of authentic submission is in fact that simple and direct—and that simplicity is what can make it hard. Of course a servant's desires can and do exist independently of the Keeper, and they may certainly be fulfilled, but I'm sure you'll agree there must be understanding and observance as to which set of desires takes precedence. There is a line between offering desires for consideration and demanding them to be fulfilled. quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Things are not that simple. I don't get a warm glow when I'm told to pause my video game to go reheat leftovers and bring them to him. It's a fucking pain in the ass and I'll shed the "mystique" of the submissive enough to admit it. However, I live for the head scratch and the "good kitten" that follows it. All houses and their respective Masters and Mistresses have different rules, but in mine, your getting inwardly miffed over having to forego some trivial entertainment to fulfill a simple command would be grounds for a serious reminder of priorities—and the immediate recycling of your Playstation into Christmas ornaments.

servicewithsmile -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 6:45:02 PM)
lol

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 7:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos From what I've felt and known, the nature of the spirit of authentic submission is in fact that simple and direct—and that simplicity is what can make it hard. Of course a servant's desires can and do exist independently of the Keeper, and they may certainly be fulfilled, but I'm sure you'll agree there must be understanding and observance as to which set of desires takes precedence. There is a line between offering desires for consideration and demanding them to be fulfilled. Agreed. On the other hand, we DO demand through consent. If I refuse to get involved in a relationship with someone, I am saying that I demand a certain standard in a partner which they are not meeting.

AquaticSub -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 7:31:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos All houses and their respective Masters and Mistresses have different rules, but in mine, your getting inwardly miffed over having to forego some trivial entertainment to fulfill a simple command would be grounds for a serious reminder of priorities—and the immediate recycling of your Playstation into Christmas ornaments. I would suggest never getting involved with a gamer - someone whose main hobby is gaming. It's more the a mere "trival pursuit" to some, but I'll let you keep the aloofness. Under my dominant's rules, I'm allowed to be human. In fact, encouraged. Part of being human is not liking every little thing in the world. Asking me to pause during a big boss fight is exactly like asking me to stop painting. I'm in a zone of contentment, I'm in a zone of progress. Therefore, it's annoying to be stopped. Being submissive isn't about not being human. It's about putting someone else's desires before your own. Regardless of if you like it or not. That's why so many straight women and men will submit to having sex with people of the same gender. They don't like it. It may even disgust them. But for whatever reasoning, because of our wiring, we want to please you, the dominant, the master. As for you, I question if you want humans in your household or robots. Athough that would actually make you more of a geek then me. And I suspect you wouldn't like that. Edited to Add: All in my very humble opinion of course.

Valyraen -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 7:41:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub Things are not that simple. I don't get a warm glow when I'm told to pause my video game to go reheat leftovers and bring them to him. It's a fucking pain in the ass and I'll shed the "mystique" of the submissive enough to admit it. However, I live for the head scratch and the "good kitten" that follows it. All houses and their respective Masters and Mistresses have different rules, but in mine, your getting inwardly miffed over having to forego some trivial entertainment to fulfill a simple command would be grounds for a serious reminder of priorities—and the immediate recycling of your Playstation into Christmas ornaments. Not much of a gamer, are ya mate? I've definitely got a different set of priorities - including allowing the woman I love free will and the right to have feelings and desires of her own. Rest assured, if I wanted someone who would immediately bow and scrape before my slightest whim, that's who I would have chosen. Obviously, since Aqua and I have been together going on one-and-a-quarter years now, this is an arrangement that makes me happy. So, no, this isn't your house, and I don't think I need worry about it becoming yours in the forseeable future. So, if you have something to say about me or the way that I interact with my kitten, have the balls to step up and say it, rather than sidling around the issue. I've challenged one dom to a duel at dawn already... after my BBQ break, I'll gladly take another [;)]. I'll even use my left hand... Say it with me, folks: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

AquaticSub -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 7:42:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Valyraen Say it with me, folks: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. Does this count as non-consentual degrading of "The Princess Bride"?

slavegirljoy -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:05:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie For me it has nothing to do with not wanting my desires filled and everything to do with not expecting him to fulfill them as I dictate. Very well said. Same for me. i am a slave to my Master, not to my own desires. When i became His slave, i entrusted my life to His control. He decides when and how His slave's desires are fulfilled. And, when He does, it is better and more satisfying than anything i have ever felt before and very well worth the wait. slave joy Owned property of Master David

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:13:25 PM)
Daddy does more than meet my needs. He also likes hearing my desires and will ask what i want. though i will think about His before telling Him what i want ...sometimes what i want is exactly what He wants as well. it's scary knowing that we think alike at times when our mindset is in sync.

MsParados -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:15:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag I believe that it is the responsibility of a dominant to meet the needs of a submissive. And I believe those needs are more than just bread and water and shelter. Wildfleurs gave a definition of needs that is remarkably close to one given by Nathaniel Branden in his book "The Six Pillars of Self Esteem". He wrote, "A need is that which is required for our effective functioning. We do not merely want food and water, we need them; without them, we die." It would be impossible to make an exhaustive list of needs, some of them will vary from one submissive to the next (because some people need things others do not). But a dominant has a responsibility to use that definition to the best of their ability to identify and attend to the needs of any submissive in their care. Their general well-being is our responsibility so far as it is humanly possible for us to provide for that. And then for some, wiitwd or the TPE (exchange because while one is taking more power the other is giving over more of their own) that the Dom is expected to determine what has become a need to their submissive. I will only speak for myself, but my needs of today as not what I thought I needed 2 years ago. I have a friend that if left up to her, she and I would be having coffee and going shopping everyday. If left inmy hands I would run over to her house every 3 days when the newest drama hit to offer support and try to help, Daddy would even say I would do it to the detriment of myself or my duties. IF he allowed this, my natural desire, I would lose respect for him. If he feels I haven't earned it or my time is better spent on other tasks all he has to say is, "Priorities." , and when I stop to process that I realize he is right. I have my own house to run and homework to do. My Family and finishing my education are my true needs and I am thankful for his perspective because it helps me to focus mine.

amayos -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:44:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: amayos From what I've felt and known, the nature of the spirit of authentic submission is in fact that simple and direct—and that simplicity is what can make it hard. Of course a servant's desires can and do exist independently of the Keeper, and they may certainly be fulfilled, but I'm sure you'll agree there must be understanding and observance as to which set of desires takes precedence. There is a line between offering desires for consideration and demanding them to be fulfilled. Agreed. On the other hand, we DO demand through consent. If I refuse to get involved in a relationship with someone, I am saying that I demand a certain standard in a partner which they are not meeting. Likewise agreed. Openly communicating and operating upon a set of preexisting standards before entering into a relationship with a prospective Keeper cannot be faulted. The same can be said for the dominant individual, in turn.

catize -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:45:17 PM)
quote: Of course a servant's desires can and do exist independently of the Keeper, and they may certainly be fulfilled, but I'm sure you'll agree there must be understanding and observance as to which set of desires takes precedence. There is a line between offering desires for consideration and demanding them to be fulfilled. Desires and wishes are important, no matter who has them. And yes, the crucial point is how they are conveyed as well as learning to accept the answer. I am blessed with a master who is magnanimous when it comes to considering my fulfillment almost as often as his own. quote: All houses and their respective Masters and Mistresses have different rules, but in mine, your getting inwardly miffed over having to forego some trivial entertainment to fulfill a simple command would be grounds for a serious reminder of priorities—and the immediate recycling of your Playstation into Christmas ornaments. I’m lying on the couch reading a book. Master arrives home and as he walks by me, drops the cuffs on the page I’m reading and keeps walking. I think, ‘Wait! I’m almost done with this chapter!” Ah, yep, those unsubmissive thoughts; they pop unbidden from my brain. A frisson of small rebellion which, within the seconds it takes to move in obedience, has already been quelled by reminding myself that this is what I have agreed to; this is my responsibility as his slave. Does that one moment of selfish desire negate my obedience? Does the fact that I sometimes struggle with those thoughts make me less than submissive? Will it ever get any easier for me? And if it does get easier, does that lend more ‘weight’ to my submission?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:49:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: amayos Likewise agreed. Openly communicating and operating upon a set of preexisting standards before entering into a relationship with a prospective Keeper cannot be faulted. The same can be said for the dominant individual, in turn. Yes! Thank you, I had tried to elaborate in that in my post and the words were not coming- that's it exactly.

AquaticSub -> RE: Desire (3/6/2007 8:50:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize Does that one moment of selfish desire negate my obedience? Does the fact that I sometimes struggle with those thoughts make me less than submissive? chuckles Apparently. I guess we are in the same boat. I always thought that it was more significant to obey when you less eager then when you are more. I am fortunate apparently - Valyraen agrees with me.

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