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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/12/2007 7:06:33 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Welcome back, Irish.

It is good to see you posting again.

why thank you kindly

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/12/2007 7:39:48 PM

amiciaN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

For me, it's about trust and verify. This is a part of being "transparent" for me...in order to really share, you have to be open to a certain amount of transparency in your life. I have layers of transparency, as do many.

Master Fire

Being completely transparent to my Master is my resolution for 2007, so I can relate to this way of looking at trust. For myself, I tend to trust and then fail to verify, so I have been disappointed/ taken advantage of. My Master understood this and so He took the lead when our relationship moved from being a friendship to a D/s relationship and verified things for me without me asking (ie showing me His official ID via video to verify He is who He claims to be). He told me then that He would never let me down and He has kept His word. Hence, my trust has been verified as being deserved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

snip
When a D is wanting passwords, chat logs, or other information s tend to balk and feel they aren’t being trusted.
snip

    I do send my Master NChaka my IRC chat logs, but it is not because He does not trust me. There was a situation that He was uncomfortable with and He requested I send Him the logs so He could make His own judgement about the behavior of others. His lack of trust is in others, not me. He has mentioned recently that there seems to be nothing to worry about after all, but He continues to monitor the situation out of His desire to protect me as I am His and only His. He made this quite plain from the moment He asked for the logs and has again verified that I can trust His word, because He has not once made me feel like I am not trusted.
    That is a true achievement for me, as I did something in the first month of being His that severely damaged His trust in me. The fact that He distrusted others and trusted me in the above situation is also proof to me that trust can be rebuilt.
    I should mention that ours is a long distance relationship and maintaining that requires a level of mutual trust that many people cannot even imagine. Mutual trust is an absolute requirement for a monogamous relationship in which the partners measure the time they spend together over the course of a year in days and weeks. The wonderful thing for me is that our trust in each other and love for each other continues to grow and deepen in ways I never dreamed.     Yes, I used the l word in regards to a D/s relationship. We both trust in the love we share and it is an important part of our relationship. My love for Him only deepens my desire to serve Him. The guidence and support He has given me because of His love for me has enabled me to achieve things I struggled in vain with for 20 years. In my experience, people do not harm those they truly love and His love for me allows my trust to grow as I am assured that I am truly safe from harm at last.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/12/2007 7:40:00 PM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Understanding the importance of trust in any relationship I wanted to open this topic for discussion. We often hear that he/she doesn’t trust me because of _____ or _____ and ______. I think blind trust is the armor of fools, which brings me to trust and verify.
I can give trust, however I want to verify that trust. I do this by be attentive to words, actions, reactions and deeds. The sabotage thread gave me a lot to think about and reflect on this concept. I had to weigh if I was distrusting and just waiting to be proven justified in distrust or if I was trusting and waiting for verification of that trust. It brought me to the conclusion, after watching my own (bizarre) behavior on the boards and how I assimilate data of other posters that I do trust and verify.

I do not automatically react to post, I tend to study them and look for consistencies and inconsistencies. I use this as a tool to understand the person on the other side of the screen, not just a potential partner, but just about everyone. I get a feel for who they are through their posts, or their alts posts once they come into light.

When a D is wanting passwords, chat logs, or other information s tend to balk and feel they aren’t being trusted. Is it a matter of distrust and looking for the fatal flaw or is it a matter of trust and verify. In this medium all we really have is what the online persona presents to us. For all the members of this community is it about trust and verify or are you distrusting and searching for failure?

I trust everyone....unless of course they're just deceitful little fucks...and then I might give them one more chance...but I'll tell you what!!! If they blow that....I'll toss them over the first bloody embankment I can find.

Not that I don't want to give the benefit of the doubt but hey....if they step over the line....it's a two by 4 to the fucking head....that's what I have to say about that!

Not that I'm not flexible....I mean everyone has a bad day....

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/12/2007 11:37:05 PM

MasterFeenix

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My initial impression of people determines the level of trust I put into them. Part of it is instinct. Once I put my trust into someone, however, its there until they do something to ruin it. I don't go looking for evidence to mistrust anyone. The evidence will always present itself when its there. Often we know when we're being lied to, or fooled. Something inside us tells us so. Yet, often we don't listen to it because we "want" to trust this person. Trust is easy to gain when you are yourself. When people see you are open and honest; when they see you speak from the heart on a matter, trust comes easily.

Unfortunately, this is the internet. We don't have visual clues, we don't hear what people are saying when they say things. All we see are words on a screen. This makes it far easier to weave a lie, and harder to find out we're being lied to. I can understand completely why people would be distrustful in this environment. It takes more effort to ensure someone isnt filling the screen with an invented person.

Personally, I don't see the point in lying here, or anywhere else. In the end, people are going to see who and what we are. By lying to people to get into a relationship, you just waste time for both parties. Why would you want someone to fall in love with a person that isn't you, and how long do you really expect it to last once it happens? Are you really happy being fake. Just tell the truth and find someone who wants to be with who you are, not with the fake person you present.

In any case, I think I drifted off topic a bit, but it's there. In the end, a liar will always be found out. No one can hold it together forever...

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 12:03:09 AM

JSin

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I think it is at least for me a matter of understanding the person in question. If I reach a point where I di trust them they know there are absolute consequences for violating my trust. For me at least I do not rust easily and once it is earned I expect it to be both cherished and nurtured. This includes but is not limited to making me aware of items of relevence wether it is another potential love interest <I am poly so this is not a big deal if revealed> or something as simple as an unexpected bill.

I seldom feel a need to verify as one who has my trust has done so through a series of steps to place themselves in that position.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 12:10:41 AM

Vendaval

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I second that, good to see you here again, Irish.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 6:37:00 AM

SirDominic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

A lot of people confuse trust and faith. Trust is experiential, and based on what you're calling "verification." Faith, however, is not subject to empircle proof.

The problem is trust, in any meaningful sense, depends on faith. Experience can never prove about what's going to happen in the future. Logically, principles of verification only refer to the past. So, no matter how many chat logs you've looked at, or e-mail accounts you have access too and have perused, there's nothing to garuntee that the person is going to be trustworthy tomorrow. (This is basically Hume's problem of induction, for those of you who are philosophers)

Also, a positive can't be proved. It can only be disproved. Just because you have no evidence that a person isn't trustworthy doesn't mean they are trustworthy. It just means you haven't come accross any evidence saying they have broken trust. Its much easier to show experienctially that someone hasn't been trustworthy than to show that they are trustworthy.

So, when you get right down to it, it all comes down to a leap of faith.

gypsy, I agree with everything you said except your conclusion! Given that all your lead-in is accurate, and I think it is; for me what it comes down to is a reasoned judgement of the facts available qualified with the knowledge that complete knowledge of the facts is not possible.

Yes, past experience cannot "prove" future conduct. It is usually a good barometer however. It is always possible for someone to have a life changing experience that corrupts them. Failing that, what a person has proven by action in the past is likely how they will act in the future.

On the same note, a positive cannot be proved. Again, past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior.

Bottom line is that one can never really know another person completely, so blind trust based on past experience can lead to disappointment. That is why I have an issue with those who have stated on other threads that they have 100% trust in their Masters because past experience has shown them they could. It is a dangerous assumption to make.

I am not a naturally trusting person. Trust is earned in increments based on actions. The more I believe a person is who they say they are, the more I will trust them, assuming I have no evidence to the contrary. Complete trust, though, is ephemeral. Trust, for me, is an ongoing process. It never ends. I'm not saying I put a huge amount of time and energy into this process, because I do not. I DO keep my eyes open and pay attention to people's continuing actions.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 8:29:19 AM

gypsygrl

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SirDominic,

From what you've written, I don't see that you disagree with me. In fact, everything you say seems to support my conclusion that it all comes down to a leap of faith. All I meant by this phrase is that there's a point where experience and knowledge fall short and it is at that point that trust requires a leap into the unknown. Those who can't take those leaps probably can't trust fully either.

For example, you write,

quote:

for me what it comes down to is a reasoned judgement of the facts available qualified with the knowledge that complete knowledge of the facts is not possible.

I would say, that's my point. Knowing that complete knowledge of the facts (or what they mean) is not possible and being able to live with that requires faith.

quote:

Yes, past experience cannot "prove" future conduct. It is usually a good barometer however. It is always possible for someone to have a life changing experience that corrupts them. Failing that, what a person has proven by action in the past is likely how they will act in the future.

On the same note, a positive cannot be proved. Again, past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior.

This reasoning is circular, which is fine in this instance because we're talking human relationships and not logic. But, the fact of the circle does point to the need for faith. As you pointed out, its possible for a person to have a life changing experience that corrupts them. There's no garuntee that that won't happen. In fact, most people have such experiences that make them rather lousy partners for at least a little while. People also have life changing experiences that makes them much better and less corrupt than they were before. These are rather common also. But, it still makes sense to assume that the past is a good predictor of the future even though we have good reasons and sound arguments to believe that its not. I would just point out that this assumption makes sense as a matter of faith. Its an assumption that can't be proven, so we have to take it on faith.

quote:

Bottom line is that one can never really know another person completely, so blind trust based on past experience can lead to disappointment.

"Blind trust based on past experience" is a contraction in terms. Trust is either blind and not based on any experience or its not blind and based on experience. Just wanted to point that out. :)

I agree that no one should walk into any interaction with their eyes closed. I just think there's always a point where one has to rely on faith.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 3/13/2007 8:32:49 AM >

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 10:18:02 AM

SirDominic

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gypsy, I don't disagree with you. That is why I said I agreed with everything you said! It's just that last sentence that bothers me. Faith is one of those words that pushes my buttons, this I admit. Faith, to me, is belief based on nothing. It is a form of non-thinking.

What I said is that my belief is based on the facts available to me. And that belief can change if the facts change. I don't believe that is faith. Possibly we are just using different terms?

You said, "Blind trust based on past experience" is a contraction in terms. Trust is either blind and not based on any experience or its not blind and based on experience. Just wanted to point that out. :)

Point taken. I didn't phrase my words carefully with that thought. What I was saying is that various subs and slaves have used past experience as a basis to put blind faith in their Masters currently. Yes their trust is based on past experience. But from that they take a position that they can now believe blindly and without reservation.

I enjoy your posts, you keep me on my toes!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 5:01:04 PM

bastardandthewen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
When a D is wanting passwords, chat logs, or other information s tend to balk and feel they aren’t being trusted. Is it a matter of distrust and looking for the fatal flaw or is it a matter of trust and verify. In this medium all we really have is what the online persona presents to us. For all the members of this community is it about trust and verify or are you distrusting and searching for failure?

In the past, when put in this situation and asked for my passwords, I've pleasently replied that they would be welcome to them, provided they were willing to do the same. Bastard was the first (and only ) one to agree to this.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/13/2007 7:03:23 PM

wandersalone

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fast reply...

Having just read all of the posts on this thread and had a think about how trust works for me I have come to the conclusion that I start out with ambivalence in regards to trust - sure I may like the person however I remain undecided as to whether to trust them or not. (I find it important for me to separate liking someone from trusting them). I then see what unfolds over time in our interactions and often feel that I have enough information within the first week or so of regular contact to make an intial decision to trust or not.

In regards to people on CM, unfortunately very few people who have emailed me on the other side regularly post on the forums - the bonus being that the ones who do post on here and have emailed me have been fascinating people. FT wrote much more clearly than I could how I make the decision to trust - " I do this by be attentive to words, actions, reactions and deeds."

I also believe that the building of trust (or mistrust) is a fluid process, what feels right at this moment may change and that's ok.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 11:43:05 AM

Dnomyar

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Ok! For all of you trustworthy women. Grins. "Trust me". I think that for new people or new situations you just have to trust first until shown different.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 1:49:51 PM

Padriag

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An interesting question FT. Most of the posts I've read focus on when the person will trust someone else. I think I'll flip it around a bit. I don't expect anyone who doesn't know me to simply trust me or take my word for anything, especially online. I don't see why they should or why I should expect them too. After all, if they don't know me, know nothing about me, what rational reason do they have? So I assume from the first that if I really want someone's trust I have an obligation to earn that trust, I don't expect it for free.

Over the last year or so I've received compliments on various of my posts, often for their being well written. There is a reason behind why I make the extra effort to write well, and part of it involves my above feeling about trust. This is especially true when I post something in which I'm trying to explain or educate on a topic I think is important. I don't expect anyone to believe what I write just because ol Pad said so. Instead I approach it from the perspective of "nobody will believe this unless I provide reasons within what I write for them to accept it... I need to prove my argument." I'm doing that right now in fact. Old habits die so hard.

In personally earning people's trust, whoever that may be, I make the effort to ensure that what I say and what I do match up. To demonstrate that I am reliable and dependable. That I can be counted on for certain things. That I am careful in what I promise, that what I promise I keep, and deliver a little more than promised if I am able. In short, I demonstrate that I can be trusted through actions, not mere words. Talk is, after all, cheap.

When do I trust someone? Usually when someone fulfills the above expectations. There's no time constraint on that, there have been a few people I came to trust very quickly and others that took much longer. Depends on the person and the circumstances... and sometimes my own fallibility.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 4:27:28 PM

MadRabbit

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(Fast Reply)

My views are on the lines of trust and verify, but I view it more as a growing process where I need less and less verification. If the relationship is growing and moving in the right direction, I should need less and less verification, thus having more and more trust in the person. However, if someone continually proves their merits and I still continue to need constant verification, then there is a point where I am not really trusting them at all.

Much like the paranoid mom, endlessly checking up on her high school kid's activities, despite the kid's repeated record of staying out of trouble. Her constant need for verification is filling the void created by her complete lack of trust. If you are verifying TO trust rather than verifying TO REPLACE trust, then you should need less verification over time.

My father and I have reached such a point in our relationships. I trust him to do what he says he will do or at least tell me if he doesn't to the point that I need absolutely zero verification. The 1% of the time he lets me down is chalked up to simple human imperfection.

So...I tell a potential submissive "Question me until you feel you don't need to question me anymore and I will check up on you until I feel I don't need to check up on you anymore."

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 6:52:37 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Llyren

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

I have even more spiffy boots now.

Pictures! Please!

No shit! I get a picture of...........and yet you get new boots and do not send me ( a boot and shoe fanatic.....among other things) a picture of them?!?!? What is wrong with this?

**sidenote......and it only took 26 posts to go from a beautifully deep subject like trust to hyjacking it into pictures of boots.

So I get another coupon from the shipping companies for new steel toed shoes. I ad another 60 or so dollars to the check and I can get a lovely pair of steel toed Doc Martens.

Yummy. Orange coveralls, morpheme expression, diesel fumes, Doc Martens, swoonage.

Sinergy

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 7:39:48 PM

ELUSIVE1

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I am very trusting, to trustworthy people that is...chat logs??emails?? I have provided passwords to those in the past, no big deal

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 7:45:36 PM

RWAble

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Trust No One. For Your mind is at stake.

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RE: Trust but verify. - 3/14/2007 11:56:13 PM

Texy

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Hiya,
For me, I tend to trust and verify online because trust and vulnerability go hand in hand for me.
I've known most of my friends the majority of my adult life. The rest I've known since grade school. These type of friends are easy for me to trust, they know me, and I know them. Faults, insecurities, and shining deeds as well. In partners/husbands/lovers, it's easy for me as well. Everyone that I have lived with, 1 man, 1 woman, I've remained good friends with each. Easy to be vulnerable there as well.

On the message boards, i don't take or analyze too much about the people sharing. I'm getting a feel for the varied opinions and beliefs within this lifestyle. I'm getting a taste for what I will encounter when I jump into it in real time....next month!! YAY! Do I trust the poster? Only to the extent of what they say, telling me how they feel about a particular posed question. I make no further judgments on it as to the poster.

As far as the "getting to know you stage" of interacting with Dommes on collarme, I must admit I'm a bit confused. Being really new to the lifestyle, I have not served anyone in real time, yet. And I plainly state that in my profile and up front when approached by a Domme. In the profiles, some state every request or order will be followed to the letter, yet, for me, that type of trust takes time. I was told by one, that if She told me to jump, I'd better jump and ask how high while I'm in the air jumping. I thought to myself, "Self, that ain't a gonna happen anytime soon." On the outside and to Her, I said, "I see." We didn't communicate long. I've also no problem furnishing my phone number, to verify I am female. I however do insist a Domme ante up theirs as I'm giving mine. I understand being cautious, but safety and fact finding works both ways in my book. So here, online, I wouldn't say it is earned, but I will verify with my gut feeling, and the words they say, how far I'm going to continue the communication. I will not be vulnerable to a stranger, just my instincts kicking in here. There are some real folks here, and I hope to meet some in person soon for some meets. Others, I just take with a grain of salt and realize, it's just online, and I'm here for a taste of the lifestyle.
Thanks,
gayle

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