RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed]

RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (Full Version)

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mixielicous -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:47:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do not get it popeye, if you have no problem with being uncivilized then fine, but just do not claim to be superior to the very people you are torturing.. you are not! That is just the reality of it. It is like justifying adultery because your spouse cheated... I mean we can all come up with excuses for our lack of integrity. My point is own what you do, take responsibility for it... call a spade a spade! Torturing is evil and wrong by my moral compass, and I am not going to give a free pass to torture one person because another person got tortured... it is wrong, plain and simple. Now people can rationalize their behavior anyway they like, but it still is what it is.. no amount of projection will change what it is. julia, do you watch the show 24? i know it is fictional, but i feel [LOL] acurately will serve as an example. So in this season, there has been a nuke set off on US soil, the russian consolate at the russian embassay knows where the remaining nukes are. they are asked for civilly, but nothing. then jack [god he is annoying] goes back to the embassay because well, there are three more nukes out there, the russian knows where they are, and is lying about it. and guess what, after cutting a finger off, he fessed up. now i know this is theoretical, but can you honestly say in the face of 4 nuclear bombs, would your standards for human rights still be so high, or would you let this happen for the greater good of the country? it is something to think about

popeye1250 -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:49:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do not get it popeye, if you have no problem with being uncivilized then fine, but just do not claim to be superior to the very people you are torturing.. you are not! That is just the reality of it. It is like justifying adultery because your spouse cheated... I mean we can all come up with excuses for our lack of integrity. My point is own what you do, take responsibility for it... call a spade a spade! Torturing is evil and wrong by my moral compass, and I am not going to give a free pass to torture one person because another person got tortured... it is wrong, plain and simple. Now people can rationalize their behavior anyway they like, but it still is what it is.. no amount of projection will change what it is. Julia, you're the one who's claiming the morally superior position, not me. I never did claim to be morally superior to anyone. What are you saying, that we need to get out of the Geneva Conventions now?

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:51:12 AM)
You know torture is the worst way to get information, and I do not watch tv, especially a show designed to instill fear. I have heard of this show, and I would not watch it with someone else's eyes... the example you just wrote about illustrates why I feel this way Here is a link about the effectiveness of torture in obtaining accurate information.. and btw, military people are usually the most ardent critics of torture http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14924664/site/newsweek/ As needtouseyou pointed out, it is often about dehumanization and vengence...

mixielicous -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:53:22 AM)
the only fear the show is designed to instill is the fear of our current leader and what our country will look like if we keep going down the road we are already on and no, they had tried it civilly, there is no time left, how do you get the information you need julia to save the country when taking the higher road wont work? edit to add, no i am not pro torture, but i wont deny the situations where there is no other way

Rumtiger -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:54:40 AM)
S'wrong with Jack?

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:54:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You do not get it popeye, if you have no problem with being uncivilized then fine, but just do not claim to be superior to the very people you are torturing.. you are not! That is just the reality of it. It is like justifying adultery because your spouse cheated... I mean we can all come up with excuses for our lack of integrity. My point is own what you do, take responsibility for it... call a spade a spade! Torturing is evil and wrong by my moral compass, and I am not going to give a free pass to torture one person because another person got tortured... it is wrong, plain and simple. Now people can rationalize their behavior anyway they like, but it still is what it is.. no amount of projection will change what it is. Julia, you're the one who's claiming the morally superior position, not me. I never did claim to be morally superior to anyone. What are you saying, that we need to get out of the Geneva Conventions now? Ok, so you do you think that the United States stands for the rule of law, civilized behavior, freedom from oppression, democracy and human rights? If you do, then everytime our government tortures someone it goes against its own stated ideals. Also, we hear constantly how we are spreading these very values to other people, people that we have tortured, how can you force people to be free at the end of a gun and by torturing them, without even due process?

farglebargle -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:58:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous the only fear the show is designed to instill is the fear of our current leader and what our country will look like if we keep going down the road we are already on and no, they had tried it civilly, there is no time left, how do you get the information you need julia to save the country when taking the higher road wont work? edit to add, no i am not pro torture, but i wont deny the situations where there is no other way If you torture someone for a good reason, you'll torture someone for any reason. The "Slippery Slope" exists. And once you compromise your integrity, you cannot regain it, and going further, and further down that slope gets easier and easier. From 1848 through 1 April 1933, Jews were considered equal members of German society ( under German law ) 1 April 1933: Jewish doctors, shops, lawyers and stores were boycotted. 7 April: "Law for the Restoration of the professional Civil Service" banning Jews employed in government. 1935: Jews were forbidden to join the Wehrmacht. anti-Jewish propaganda appeared in Nazi-German shops and restaurants, Nuremberg Racial Purity Laws. 15 September 1935 : "Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour" 1935 (cont ) "Reich Citizenship Law" all Jews, even quarter- and half-Jews, were no longer citizens. 1936, Jews were banned from all professional jobs 1 March 1938, Government contracts could not be awarded to Jewish businesses. 17 August, 1938 Jews had to add "Israel" (males) or "Sarah" (females) to their names 30 September 1938, "Aryan" doctors could only treat "Aryan" patients. ) remember how Jews were banned from practicing medicine back in 1936? 5 October a large letter "J" was to be imprinted on their passports 15 November Jewish children were banned from going to normal schools. November 9-10 Kristallnacht - Approximately 100 Jews were killed, and another 20,000 arrested, some of which were sent to the newly formed concentration camps. On May 19, 1943, Germany was declared Judenrein ("free of Jews") At this point, 200,000 German Jews had been killed. And we know how this "Slippery Slope" ended? The killing of approximately six million European Jews as part of a program of deliberate extermination. It STARTED with a boycott.

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 8:58:41 AM)
I do not buy your scenario. I am not going to debate fictional scenarios that I do not buy... and again, torture is not a reliable way to obtain information... someone that is determined to carry through an attack is either going to lie or they are going to endure it for their beliefs. People will often make shit up to escape the torture when they know nothing and will admit to anything, and it is impossible to determine if what they admit is true.

popeye1250 -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:03:23 AM)
Julia, the Geneva Conventions is not a "One-Way" set of documents! I don't know where you're getting all that other stuff from. Are you saying that the signatories to the Geneva Conventions have to play "fair" but the other countries who didn't sign it don't have to play fair but the signatories have to be "nice" to them too because we signed the G.C.??? Mix, whew! Four million people got killed in those nuclear explosions but at least that Russian spy didn't lose a finger!

farglebargle -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:05:27 AM)
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions. And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong.

popeye1250 -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:07:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle The Universal Declaration of Human Rights SUPERCEDS the Geneva Conventions. And they say what the US is doing is Just Wrong. What is this an al qeada site? And the U.S. Constitution SUPERCEDES the "U.N." so they can go screw themselves! Fargle, go back to sleep.

farglebargle -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:08:47 AM)
WTF is wrong with Human Rights?

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:10:31 AM)
popeye, I am not going to argue the GC with you, I am going to state this very simply one more time, if you want to be better than those you fight, don't act like them.. pretty simple to understand isn't it? If you do the very same things as those whom you are fighting you are no better than they are.... if you have no problem with being barbarous and uncivilized then you can support the practice of torture, if you have a problem with it, then you will speak out against it like I do... pretty simple to understand. If I find a loophole that makes it legal for me to murder someone, even someone I loathe, I am not going to do that regardless because I believe in the law that states it is wrong to murder. Now it might be technically legal (and I am not saying the GC does not apply, I think it does) but it would still be morally reprehensible to me. I feel the same way about torture, so even if you are correct, that means we need to close the loopholes because torture is wrong. Now you can try to weasle around that, but it is the way I see it

farglebargle -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:13:16 AM)
On the UDHR: * "For people of good will around the world, that document is more than just words: It's a global testament of humanity, a standard by which any humble person on Earth can stand in judgment of any government on Earth." Ronald Reagan (March 1989, US Department of State Bulletin)

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:13:57 AM)
quote: Mix, whew! Four million people got killed in those nuclear explosions but at least that Russian spy didn't lose a finger! I find it so damn amusing that fictional stories are used to shore up an argument that is illogical.. in the real world they picked up the wrong Russian, he did not know where the nukes were, he lied about what he did know, and admitted that he murdered his entire family even though they are trying to get him out of custody... how silly tv is

cyberdude611 -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:21:17 AM)
quote: Colbert puts it, at least if there was a draft, people would finally get off their lazy asses and protest the war! [paraphrased, of course] where is the outrage to this empire? the violation of civil liberties left and right, the violation of rights, and choice? Where are the people opposed to the facist road this country is taking?? quote: ORIGINAL: mixielicous as my friend, Colbert puts it, at least if there was a draft, people would finally get off their lazy asses and protest the war! [paraphrased, of course] where is the outrage to this empire? the violation of civil liberties left and right, the violation of rights, and choice? Where are the people opposed to the facist road this country is taking?? Damn you generation X, you lazy stoned assholes. our parents in their hay day would have never let this happen, but their getting old. Why arent the young kids standing up and protesting? why is protesting suddenly viewed as useless and ineffective? i am ashamed of my peers and their laziness. [:(] People are not protesting because this isn't Vietnam. Vietnam was a different war and in a different era. Protests also tend to erupt into violence themselves due to a few troublemakers who decide it would be fun to throw rocks at police, bashing in store windows, and block traffic. And this actually chases away many people who are there to protest peacefully. The First amendment does not give you the right to start riots or destroy property. It states very clearly that people have a right to PEACEFULLY assemble. You start throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at the police, you are going to be beaten and the constitution no longer protects your speech at that point. I would never participate in a protest. The people that organize them are anarchists that are so far to the left that it turns into a joke.

popeye1250 -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:23:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania popeye, I am not going to argue the GC with you, I am going to state this very simply one more time, if you want to be better than those you fight, don't act like them.. pretty simple to understand isn't it? If you do the very same things as those whom you are fighting you are no better than they are.... if you have no problem with being barbarous and uncivilized then you can support the practice of torture, if you have a problem with it, then you will speak out against it like I do... pretty simple to understand. If I find a loophole that makes it legal for me to murder someone, even someone I loathe, I am not going to do that regardless because I believe in the law that states it is wrong to murder. Now it might be technically legal (and I am not saying the GC does not apply, I think it does) but it would still be morally reprehensible to me. I feel the same way about torture, so even if you are correct, that means we need to close the loopholes because torture is wrong. Now you can try to weasle around that, but it is the way I see it Julia, you're the one who's making the assumption that we're better than the ones we fight. Better how? You're getting into a whole different area. If I'm in the military and I kill an al qeada guy I don't need anyone to tell me that I'm "better" than him. Am I supposed to feel "morally superior" to al qeada now? It's not "murder" when our guys are in uniform on the battlefield being shot at by guys who are not in uniform! I didn't write the Geneva Conventions. They are what they are and not everyone is covered by them. Are you saying that we should give "everyone" the benefits of the G.C.? You can't hold the U.S. to "higher standards" than everyone else. We'd never win any wars!

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:23:48 AM)
Funny, I protest... perhaps I will go out for the next one in my community. The reason I stopped going is because more people are against being Iraq now than are for it

juliaoceania -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:25:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania popeye, I am not going to argue the GC with you, I am going to state this very simply one more time, if you want to be better than those you fight, don't act like them.. pretty simple to understand isn't it? If you do the very same things as those whom you are fighting you are no better than they are.... if you have no problem with being barbarous and uncivilized then you can support the practice of torture, if you have a problem with it, then you will speak out against it like I do... pretty simple to understand. If I find a loophole that makes it legal for me to murder someone, even someone I loathe, I am not going to do that regardless because I believe in the law that states it is wrong to murder. Now it might be technically legal (and I am not saying the GC does not apply, I think it does) but it would still be morally reprehensible to me. I feel the same way about torture, so even if you are correct, that means we need to close the loopholes because torture is wrong. Now you can try to weasle around that, but it is the way I see it Julia, you're the one who's making the assumption that we're better than the ones we fight. Better how? You're getting into a whole different area. If I'm in the military and I kill an al qeada guy I don't need anyone to tell me that I'm "better" than him. Am I supposed to feel "morally superior" to al qeada now? It's not "murder" when our guys are in uniform on the battlefield being shot at by guys who are not in uniform! I didn't write the Geneva Conventions. They are what they are and not everyone is covered by them. Are you saying that we should give "everyone" the benefits of the G.C.? You can't hold the U.S. to "higher standards" than everyone else. We'd never win any wars! We just live in different worlds popeye. I believe that those who are in uniform often think they are fighting for lofty ideals, perhaps you are right, they do not care about ideals like freedom and human rights and the rule of law

farglebargle -> RE: where is the outrage? [rant enclosed] (3/13/2007 9:28:49 AM)
quote: Protests also tend to erupt into violence themselves due to a few troublemakers who decide it would be fun to throw rocks at police, bashing in store windows, and block traffic. You misspelled COINTELPRO Agitators.

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