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RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 6:58:41 AM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

I want to know if its common place for a Dom or Domme to punish a sub/slave during the consideration period? I had this experience not that long ago...I was under consideration by a Dom from this site (i retracted the offer last night) and I did something that was innapropriate(not getting into it though) and he was trying to think up a punishment for me, well at the time that I did this innaproprate thing i thought that he had accepted me into training and was more than willing to accept what ever punishment he gave me...well then during the course of our conversation i asked him if in fact he had accepted me and he told me no that I was still under consideration and then i asked him then how is he going to punish me if im still under consideration and he told me that its like a job interview....anyways.. back to my question..i would like to hear from both Dominants and submissives.. thanks


From what you've written, it seems there three stages to the Dominant in question's acceptance process: Consideration, training and acceptance.  You thought you were in training at the time of your infraction, so you were willing to accept the punishment.  This makes sense to me because punishment is a technique of behavior modification and, as such, a form of training.  But he said, no you were still under the consideration stage.  That would have confused me too because my next question would be why is he using a training technique if you aren't in  training.

I don't really know if its common to punish someone who is under consideration because I've never used those categories, but I would say that if someone is going to make a distinction between consideration and training, it would seem useful to delay the meting out of punishment and other training techniques until the training actually begins. 

I dunno.

< Message edited by gypsygrl -- 3/14/2007 6:59:43 AM >

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(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:08:34 AM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

I want to know if its common place for a Dom or Domme to punish a sub/slave during the consideration period? I had this experience not that long ago...I was under consideration by a Dom from this site (i retracted the offer last night) and I did something that was innapropriate(not getting into it though) and he was trying to think up a punishment for me, well at the time that I did this innaproprate thing i thought that he had accepted me into training and was more than willing to accept what ever punishment he gave me...well then during the course of our conversation i asked him if in fact he had accepted me and he told me no that I was still under consideration and then i asked him then how is he going to punish me if im still under consideration and he told me that its like a job interview....anyways.. back to my question..i would like to hear from both Dominants and submissives.. thanks


For myself, if i was with a dom that i was under consideration with i would obviously have an emotional investment in him and hope to be his one day, so i would do all i could do, to do what i would do, as if i were his.  i would act as if i were already his - within my limits, and maybe there would be even more limits till the consideration part were resolved and i was actually his - i don't know. This "under consideration" and "training collars" all seem rather silly to me - kinda like when your high school friend said look *extending her hand with a dreamy look on her face, showing tiny diamond chip ring* i am pre engaged !!

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(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:22:20 AM   
Zupan


Posts: 24
Joined: 4/24/2004
Status: offline 		I see a consideration collar similar to the early stages as vanilla dating. It's a feeling out, getting to know you better stage to see if we are compatible. The difference here is that an intimate night together vanilla wise is to have sex, BDSM wise it involves ropes, toys paddles etc.

While maybe not the most important thing, kinky compatibility does come into play. As well as finding out if the dominant can be dominant, and letting a sub get away with a transgression that even she feels was wrong would break that dynamic if he does nothing about it.

A sub under a consideration collar, in my mind, still has give her submission to the dominant and can and should be punished if needed. By submitting to him, she has given him that right to punish, otherwise there is no real dominant or submissive, just vanillas getting a little kinky.

(in reply to gypsygrl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:34:41 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

If you ever want to be truly evil, just look at her and say,"My God, I can't even begin to come up with a consequence for something like that, pick out a punishment and then get back to me about it...but don't make it too light."

If she is a true submissive, she will then spend the next X number of days flipping out about it, trying to come up with a consequence that will satisfy me, yet not be too lenient on herself. Its just awesome to watch. Ain't I just plain wrong sometimes.


 
i can relate to this type of punishment! LOL! and yes, it is the worse! i don't like to chose restaurants or movies much less a "suitable" punishment!
 
All of my relationships have had consideration periods, infact they never moved beyond that stage! LOL! i personally feel that stage is quite important although i have read differing viewpoints about that... However, just because these relationships were in a consideration phase, i still expected them to be as true a representation of the desired relationship as possible. So my answer to the OP is YES, discipline and punishment have been a part of my consideration relationships and i would expect then to be in the future ones as well.
 
The inappropriate thing that you did...if you thought you were in training, knew it to be inappropriate and would probably recieve discipline for it - why did you do it? and why did the state of the relationship afterward cause you to question it later?

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(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:38:48 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		If you are under my consideration, I would treat you, in most ways, like you were mine...to see how we fit. I understand that there will be a learning curve, but if you continue to do the same wrong thing over and over, I will feel forced to either discipline you or release you.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:45:37 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

I want to know if its common place for a Dom or Domme to punish a sub/slave during the consideration period? I had this experience not that long ago...I was under consideration by a Dom from this site (i retracted the offer last night) and I did something that was innapropriate(not getting into it though) and he was trying to think up a punishment for me, well at the time that I did this innaproprate thing i thought that he had accepted me into training and was more than willing to accept what ever punishment he gave me...well then during the course of our conversation i asked him if in fact he had accepted me and he told me no that I was still under consideration and then i asked him then how is he going to punish me if im still under consideration and he told me that its like a job interview....anyways.. back to my question..i would like to hear from both Dominants and submissives.. thanks


I too am of the opinion that being "under consideration" is much like...as  others have noted...is somewhat like a trial period at work.  I disagree that it is like a job interview...a job interview is talking only, no work.  It is back and forth communication between the prospective employer and employee in regards to expectations about work performance and needs being met.  "Under consideration" indicates that you have moved somewhere past the "interview" stage and are now not just communicating but playing and working within a certain D/s parameter.  It is also indicated by your statement that you knew that what you did was inappropriate for the parameter you had agreed to work within for now.  If it was inappropriate...and you knew it then and/or knew it now...why would you think that it would be inappropriate for him to take action of some sort? 

***Before I go on, let me state that in MOO, there is no need for any sort of harsh discipline during a "consideration" period...if the submissive has done something so inappropriate that you as the dominant know in your own mind and heart that it would warrant strong action if she were in place as your submissive...then you might want to consider how important she has made this relationship to her.  If it was all that important, why would she do something to screw it up?***

Now, going back to my first paragraph.... seems to me that if a dominant and a submissive agree to a consideration period of the type noted above, then everything that will be in place once they enter into a negotiated D/s union should be in place during this period, including the right to screw up...and the right to be disciplined for it...and the right to discipline for it.
It might be at a level where there are more "limits" around everything that is done but there should not be any "wait, wait, wait...O.K., I know I acted wrong and I know this would result in discipline if we were dom/sub right now but I am calling myself on it so you do not get to discipline/punish/scold me" if it would not be in place in the "regular" D/s relationship between you two.

Sounds to me like you two may have started out reading the same book but somewhere...right around the time of your misbehavior...veered away into two different books.

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 7:57:22 AM   
RPutnamJr


Posts: 176
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		Here's my two cents for what its worth. Two cents.

I believe that a Dom/me has the RIGHT to ask a sub/slave whatever they wish whenever they wish it. BUT, the sub/slave has every RIGHT to refuse to do whatever is requested of them by that Dom/me.

Now this right does become limited whenever the sub/slave offers their submission to the Dom/me. Whether this submission is given or taken does not matter. If they submit then they have submitted to the will of their new owner. But one more element must also take place. And that element is acceptance by the Dom/me of the sub/slaves submission. Until both the submission is given/taken and accepted then the sub/slave has all Rights given it by law. Once though the sub/slave has submitted and their submission has been accepted then their Rights are subordinated to those Rights of their new owner.

Now the Rights of their owner may be limited either by contract or certain unalienable laws. Limits should be spelled out in a contract either verbally or better when its written. Unalienable laws would be the right not to do anything that is illegal, abusive, etc. So long as what their owner requests does not violate either the contract or the sub/slaves unalienable laws then the Dom/me has every right and obligation to punish/discipline according to their will...not according to the sub/slaves will.

If the sub/slave does not like the punishment, fine then either accept it or you are breaking the contract plain and simple. If you break the contract then you are now free again and can do whatever you wish and that includes leaving the M/s relationship. For if the sub/slave can break/make contracts at will then there is no true M/s relationship going on there in my opinion. In which case the Dom/me can cut the sub/slave loose also.

Now in your case, you agree that you were at least under consideration. To me that means you have submitted to the will of the Dom. But the Dom has not completed your collaring by not 100% accepting your submission yet. Thus you are still free to decide for yourself. You thus still have the RIGHT to refuse punishment/discipline. But in refusing you are telling the Dom that he is wrong. Thus he has the RIGHT to either force you into submission or cut you loose. If you are ultimately unwilling to submit then you have the RIGHT to cut him loose also.

Now when I say Force, I mean it not in a way that would violate unalienable laws, such as abusing you or truely raping you. What I mean by Force is the Dom/mes right to reestablish their Dominance in a way that you have agreed to in prior discussions and in your contract hopefully.

As for the under consideration period/probationary period...basically this in my opinion is all one and the same. My thoughts I think were clearly explained earlier.

A training collar to me just means that I might be more understanding and forgiving to those infractions which I am trying to teach my sub/slave. After all how can you expect a new sub/slave to act if they have not been trained properly in the first place. The collar can also be taken on and off according to the sub/slaves status or level of training. While the collar is on though I would expect the sub/slave to obey fully any lawful command given it by myself. If the collar is off then they would not necessarily have to obey any command.

The collar to me symbols submission both given and acceptance of it by the sub/slave and Dom/me. The collar should also only be removed under agreed upon terms and then only by the Dom/me that placed the collar around the neck of the sub/slave. After all if a sub/slave is able to remove the collar at will then they are not truely collared and then you don't have a true M/s relationship again.

Now a penny for your thoughts about all this.

BTW, since I put my two cents in and you only put in one...my opinion matters most...at least when it comes to my sub/slave.

(in reply to velvetears)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 8:00:22 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter what you call it or what you want it to mean- it matters that the OTHER person understands what it means TO YOU and agrees to it.  Obviously, you both failed on that count.

So, forget the punishment at this point in time (if that's enough to ruin any possibility of a relationship or mature adults getting together, it really wasn't meant to be anyway), and have that serious talk you should have had awhile ago.  Discuss exactly what this term means to you both, exactly what behavior expectations there will be, exactly what consequences there will be, both positive and negative, discuss where you want this to go in 3 months and 3 years, discuss what areas you are concerned about and what areas you are happy with.

THEN, you can decide whether you both still want to be in this "consideration" thing, now that you're all on the same level of what it means to you both.  After that, a question like this won't even come up.

Is punishment part of the consideration period?  If you both say it is, yes.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 8:17:36 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		When I was under consideration, we behaved as if I were owned.  How else would I know I wanted/needed his ownership if I did not have an idea of what it was to be owned by him?  How else would he know his interest level in my submission if I were not displaying my desire to submit?  I was often corrected while under consideration.  I could not possibly have known all I needed to know to meet his requirements when I was so new.  I had much to learn.  Correction, however, is different than punishment.  Punishment came from disobedience, which I also did a time or two while under consideration.  Had he not punished me, I would not have seen him as I did - strong and willing to snap me right back into place when needed.  I needed a Master who would not tolerate my disobedience.

Punishments at that time were rather mild, however, due to my being such a novice.  He took that into consideration and wasn't going to overwhelm me right off the bat.  Punishments were harsher as I went along, as he expected more and better from me.  Fortunately in my case they didn't happen a lot, but they did happen.

I think some think that "under consideration" means a courtship of sorts.  To me it's similar to what others said - being under probation.  I'm going to do all I can to impress him and show him what I'm made of.  In my case, he continued to impress me without even trying, which made me try all the harder.

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 8:22:47 AM   
MasterDesire


Posts: 45
Joined: 1/20/2005
Status: offline 		Reply to RPutnamJr  who wrote

Now the Rights of their owner may be limited either by contract or certain unalienable laws. Limits should be spelled out in a contract either verbally or better when its written. Unalienable laws would be the right not to do anything that is illegal, abusive, etc. So long as what their owner requests does not violate either the contract or the sub/slaves unalienable laws then the Dom/me has every right and obligation to punish/discipline according to their will...not according to the sub/slaves will.


I know the laws and your wrong there is no law that gives you rights under any sub / slave contract. First of all ownership of a slave in the US is illeagle. the slavery we practice in this life is consensual nothing more. Second there is no court that will allow the excuse that some one had given up their rights and were beaten or whip or what ever. Domestic violence just  is just that. Doing harm to another. Weather your in a home  motel  basement or where ever and whether your boyfriend girlfriend  or Master  sub or slave  or Domme and sub slave. I am not going to debate it farther with you but I would be very willing to post the  laws if you can understand them. The most important thing these posting should be are a true and honest  accounting for segments of the life we embrace but embracing the life dones not allow for abuse.

< Message edited by MasterDesire -- 3/14/2007 8:25:22 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 9:08:20 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		I think that DiurnalVampire put it very well. I only raised my hands to my kids once. The rest was all mental. My kids turned out great. Punishing and yelling all the time will only get you an empty space to constantly try to fill.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 9:23:09 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		That is a whole lot of drama for a relationship that is brand new.  If you were so disinterested in following through, why did you want to submit to this person? 

quote:

  All Im really looking for is a Caring Dom who is stern only when its needed


And let me guess, you know exactly when it is needed?

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 9:59:09 AM   
Attendedkarma


Posts: 42
Joined: 3/6/2007
Status: offline 		I never said that I wasnt interested in being punished...I was just curious  as to why  he would punish  during the consideraton period, and he gave me a reason and I was still willing to accept what ever punishment he came up with...and i highly doubt it would of been physical..I retracted my Statement of Intent because it dosent seem as if he has enough time for me..Before we met i would get email's from him everyday, be it he would email me from work, on messanger or what ever, then we met (had sex and scened) and it seemed as if all the communication stopped, i know he changed shifts at work and was trying to get used to them, but at the same time just a quick little note to say hi would of been nice..I retracted it until he felt he had enough time for me, was i wrong in doing so? and if i was how can i fix it?


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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 10:14:51 AM   
MiladyElaine


Posts: 1086
Joined: 10/10/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with MadRabbit

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A crazy quilt is warm but oddly put together.

Milady

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 10:20:40 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		I see no reason why a dominant would not punish during a consideration period or whatever variation it's called prior to formally collaring.  If you based the dating/consideration period on something other than what it would look like when collared, it would be pretty pointless to go through a getting to know you phase in the first place.

As far as whether you did the right thing in ending it based on time constrictions, only you can know that.  You have needs and if the dominant can not meet those needs, you can move on.  If you were in a LTR and an event occurred making it more difficult, perhaps sticking it out during the trying time would be best.  But, only you can know whether or not you can live with A, B or C.

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-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to MiladyElaine)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 10:23:32 AM   
bearincuffs


Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

... i thought that he had accepted me into training and was more than willing to accept what ever punishment he gave me...



I think this is the actual issue here. I'm interpretting this as a miscommunication between youself and the Dom. I have learned through trial and error to ask for clarification on many issues even if they seem minor. When one exactly knows what the guidelines are, then assumptions don't happen and both people are in sync which avoids a situation where the Dom and sub/slave are at odds.

I don't know if it is common for a Dom to punish a sub/slave or not. Each Dom has their own method they use for their own way of training a sub/slave. In my case, I have been "punished" appropiately for my infraction. As Master explained it to me, it is to reinforce the fact I am his slave and to be a lesson for my growth.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 12:18:54 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

I never said that I wasnt interested in being punished...I was just curious  as to why  he would punish  during the consideraton period, and he gave me a reason and I was still willing to accept what ever punishment he came up with...and i highly doubt it would of been physical..I retracted my Statement of Intent because it dosent seem as if he has enough time for me..Before we met i would get email's from him everyday, be it he would email me from work, on messanger or what ever, then we met (had sex and scened) and it seemed as if all the communication stopped, i know he changed shifts at work and was trying to get used to them, but at the same time just a quick little note to say hi would of been nice..I retracted it until he felt he had enough time for me, was i wrong in doing so? and if i was how can i fix it?



As Ms. Kat noted, only you know what you can live with.  You have every right to state what your needs and desires are up front.  If what you need is a lot of time or a lot of communication or notes from him every day, you have the right to say that.  I suppose you even have the right to state in your profile that you need a caring dominant who is stern only when it is needed...but I have to go with Michael here and state that the phrase comes across to me just as it did to Michael...you're the one who decides when it is needed.  You may not think so but the statement of such means that each time he is stern, you are going to be going over in your head whether it is warranted. 

Now, before anyone jumps on me and sarcastically asks if I am stating that a submissive has no right to make judgements, that is NOT what I am saying.  I am stating that if you yield control and authority to another, does that not also mean that the dominant decides when punitive action for a wrongdoing...whether it be a serious conversation, a lecture, discipline, or punishment is called for?  Sure, the submissive can judge in her own head whether or not his actions were called for and if she decides often enough, they were not, then she has the choice to walk away or speak to him about it. 

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 5:01:16 PM   
BlackWomanSubNJ


Posts: 54
Joined: 2/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Attendedkarma

I want to know if its common place for a Dom or Domme to punish a sub/slave during the consideration period? I had this experience not that long ago...I was under consideration by a Dom from this site (i retracted the offer last night) and I did something that was innapropriate(not getting into it though) and he was trying to think up a punishment for me, well at the time that I did this innaproprate thing i thought that he had accepted me into training and was more than willing to accept what ever punishment he gave me...well then during the course of our conversation i asked him if in fact he had accepted me and he told me no that I was still under consideration and then i asked him then how is he going to punish me if im still under consideration and he told me that its like a job interview....anyways.. back to my question..i would like to hear from both Dominants and submissives.. thanks


You were messing up already and the situation was brand new? It's no wonder he told you that you were still under consideration.  Did you ever think that perhaps if you accepted the punishment properly, that could have been the last hurdle? Or consider that He likely would not have really gone though the trouble of punishing you if He were not going to accept you?  What you have to realize is that Doms put in time and effort too.

It sounds as if you might be falling into the trap that I did: you're imposing your rules on Him.  He sets the rules (outside of your limits of course).  If He wants to consider a punishment, then that is his right.  Perhaps your next question should have been "when will You let me know if I have been accepted?" I doubt He would actually punish you before you were accepted. IMHO

_____________________________

My purpose is to learn to fullfill His desires, in the hope that He will become my Master and own me completely.

(in reply to Attendedkarma)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 5:21:29 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		He was all hot and bothered and then met and fucked you and lost interest.  Happens all the time and both sides play their roles quite well but it almost always ends up being a tradgedy.

Letters of intent, collars of consideration, buttplugs of curiousity and nipple rings of enchantment are the equivelent of a HS lettermans jacket but worn by people who are supposed to be adults and know better.

You hadn't scened with this guy or had sex with him and before you met him even once you had all sorts of warm and fluffy buttplugs of curiosity and letters of marque or whatever the hell?

Sorry but you need to get grounded, meet people not meat people, and stand your ground.  IF after they meet you they STILL want to email you constantly, THAT is when you might want to consider being considered.

I don't do the whole "consideration thing" but if I were I cannot imagine doing something like till I had spent a couple of months with someone and had spent a few days in the same house numerous times. 

Sorry to be so shrill but you need a bit of cold water.

(in reply to BlackWomanSubNJ)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Punishments and Consideration period - 3/14/2007 5:57:33 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		He's the one who said it's like a series of job interviews. If you missed work then you could have your pay docked. But if someone interviews you and has a problem with your answers he doesn't have the right to demand you give him a week's pay.

I think you were right to end this simply because you two were not talking openly and honestly about what everything meant, nor does it seem likely that good communication could ever have developed. Since it is the dominant's responsibility to lead, that includes leading in the discussions of what can happen and when.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 40
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