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RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 9:47:17 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		He wants me aroused and excited about play. He doesn't want me to stoically try to tolerate it and melt down halfway. He doesn't like having to pick up the pieces if I'm not in shape and have a panic attack. He'd rather have the information ahead of time then have to do damage control later.

As far as getting him a screwdriver, I'd call back that I had to get the steak off the grill and why not eat first. If it was an emergency he would make that clear but generally he doesn't want dinner ruined.

How this works for us is that some rules are more important than others. The classic example here is that if I were sick and he told me to stay home and sleep I would. However if there was emergency dismissal at school and I had to retrieve a child, then of course that comes first. If the house was on fire I'm not supposed to still stay in bed. Now these are obvious things but by having some rules take priority, you can make sure you aren't in conflict.

Since he likes his dinner, that would take priority over finding him a screwdriver that second. If he was holding the car part together by hand, was on the cold floor in an uncomfortable position and couldn't release it, then getting him the screwdriver would take priority. But basically he will tell me if it's an emergency and if he doesn't I'm allowed to say "Will five minutes work for you, dinner's just going into the oven".

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 10:54:44 AM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		The way I see all of submission is that you are submitting yourself to be of service to another in anyway that person requiers that you have agreed to or allowed to be choosen for you. I'm not talking about the energy of service that flows back and forth between a functioning and productive relationship. If someone says I am not turning over my control to anyone else for any reason, unless it is conducive to me = I'm a "nonservice" submissive.
ex: Dom/me requiers oral sex on days X,Y,Z, sub intitally agrees, then after a few weeks starts to balk on days X and Z...... it is not the dom/mes fault for lack of consistancy

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 11:45:00 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
The way I see all of submission is that you are submitting yourself to be of service to another in anyway that person requiers that you have agreed to or allowed to be choosen for you. I'm not talking about the energy of service that flows back and forth between a functioning and productive relationship. If someone says I am not turning over my control to anyone else for any reason, unless it is conducive to me = I'm a "nonservice" submissive.
ex: Dom/me requiers oral sex on days X,Y,Z, sub intitally agrees, then after a few weeks starts to balk on days X and Z...... it is not the dom/mes fault for lack of consistancy

No it's not.

But service submissives only get into relationships which are conducive to them.  That's no different from anyone.  For them, service is what fulfills them, so they get into relationships which will give them what they want/need.

I'm saying the issue here isn't "service" but consistency and discipline. 

We ALL get into relationships because we feel they will fulfill US/OURSELVES.  Submissives happen to be fulfilled sometimes by directly serving ANOTHER. 

ALL relationships will fail if ANY of the people involved do not work to maintain their agreed upon expectations of behavior.

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 4:01:04 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?

ex: your busy (dinner, homework,taxes whatever) and your dom calls from across the house for you, only to find out once you rush there that they need some random thing (screwdriver, birthday card from last year from their mom, whatever) from some unknown location and need it now. What, you say no, you find it?

I'm not talking about bottoms, though I guess a nonservice sub could be considered a bottom. I mean someone that identifies as a submissive, but is under no obligation, desire, or request to attend to the needs, wants and whims of their dom. Are there a large number of d/s couples that this is not a part of their dynamic or would that be the minority here on CM? I know that in my rt location non service subs would be a minority, cause I haven't been able to find one in my area that would be okay saying no in either of those situations. Nor any doms that didn't requier that general and simple expression of submission.



Well, I can say no, I DO say no, ( mostly it would be an *Oh nooooooo* kind of no, though) ..but we both know that I'll still do what's asked......... if I resist fractionally longer than he can stand, he'll force the issue, in terms that I can understand.

I'm not service-driven at all but in both of your examples I'd not even consider saying *no*. I can whinge if I want to, the cane would thwack a lot sooner and a lot harder, though, in the *cross* example .........otherwise, I'm not at all used to him asking me to do things that he doesn't want me to do...however *inconvenient* they might seem to me.

There's service, and there's bowing to his will, they both can look the same a lot of the time.  He doesn't need me to *serve*and I don't think in terms of *serving*.... but he's my owner and it seems a bit dopey to think he'll never ask anything of me.

agirl



(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 4:42:45 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

I need help understanding this senerio. Are there submissives, that when given a directive by their dom, that just say no?
ex: Your tied to a cross and s/he picks up a cane, after one tap it dawns on you that your just not feeling it tonight. Do you/can you say nope, not feeling it?

ex: your busy (dinner, homework,taxes whatever) and your dom calls from across the house for you, only to find out once you rush there that they need some random thing (screwdriver, birthday card from last year from their mom, whatever) from some unknown location and need it now. What, you say no, you find it?

I'm not talking about bottoms, though I guess a nonservice sub could be considered a bottom. I mean someone that identifies as a submissive, but is under no obligation, desire, or request to attend to the needs, wants and whims of their dom. Are there a large number of d/s couples that this is not a part of their dynamic or would that be the minority here on CM? I know that in my rt location non service subs would be a minority, cause I haven't been able to find one in my area that would be okay saying no in either of those situations. Nor any doms that didn't requier that general and simple expression of submission.



If they identify as submissive and have a dom - why woud they say no??  i suppose some may have a type of relationship where they can but in my opinion it sort of nullifies calling yourself their submissive. 

The part i underlined above seems to me a big contradiction.  Then why not identify as the persons girl friend, lover, etc... What responsibility does such a person think comes with the word submissive? 

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 5:03:04 PM   
goodpet


Posts: 458
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It might be useful to again divorce the idea that servce = submission.


So it's nothing to do with labels or calling someone a service oriented person or a bottom or delusional- it's just a person not owning up to the agreements they made.


Right on the mark

Service, Submission, obeying, they are all different things.. they can be in different combination.

I can say no any time i want.. but in my slave contract i agreed to obey. So i can say it but it would do me no good.

If someone has agreed to obey and they don't, it is not that it makes them less service or less submissive.. it makes them more untrustworthy

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: non-service submission - 3/16/2007 8:26:54 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		And some of us have rules in place to insure we will say no in appropriate circumstances.

However a service sub in my view is someone who enjoys giving service, not someone who does it grudgingly. I'm not a sevice sub, I'm also not a bottom. I didn't go into this promising to serve or obey and that isn't what he wants out of me. Our focus is emotional transparency, an ongoing process to tear down all my protective walls and give him 100% of my vulnerability.

That's what he wants from me, not someone to bring him his beer on a tray swaying in high heels. He'd probably like that a lot, as long as I didn't spill it, but it isn't essential to him. Emotional transparency is.

(in reply to goodpet)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 3:06:23 PM   
MsParados


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Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

And some of us have rules in place to insure we will say no in appropriate circumstances.

However a service sub in my view is someone who enjoys giving service, not someone who does it grudgingly. I'm not a sevice sub, I'm also not a bottom. I didn't go into this promising to serve or obey and that isn't what he wants out of me. Our focus is emotional transparency, an ongoing process to tear down all my protective walls and give him 100% of my vulnerability.

That's what he wants from me, not someone to bring him his beer on a tray swaying in high heels. He'd probably like that a lot, as long as I didn't spill it, but it isn't essential to him. Emotional transparency is.


I see emotional transparency as being a basic requierment of any relationship, though I understand how it could be linked to D/s, as I wasn't able to have that with out the other. Although I am confused Celeste, you say you are not a service sub and that obeying wasn't requiered but yet in KoMs' thread all three of those are listed as your motivation, as service, obedience and then openness.

I do not "enjoy" service, it doesn't make me wet and randy making dinner or washing dishes, yet I fullfill those tasks cause I am His and that is what he needs.
In my experince if you are submissive, some where, some how you are going to supply a service to your Dom/me. No matter how you slice it, and no one has given me any example of how submission is not related to service.  (That is a general statement and not directed at anyone)

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 3:13:20 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Oh lord, knew I should have written more than just those three motivations. I'm not into service or obedience, but I know many subs who are service focused and many who are focused on being obedient. I'm focused on emotional transparency.

But someone who gets off on obeying no matter how useless the order isn't going to express her opinion of the stupidity of the order, she won't be open about it because that isn't the focus of her relationship. She can think being told to sing Happy Birthday ten times in a row when it's his dog's birthday to be lame, but she does it anyway because she likes being ordered.

In the same manner, doing laundry might not get a service oriented sub off but she would still feel a warm glow at knowing she had done something useful for him. All I felt today when putting away the laundry is that he needs more socks, he's managed to lose five pairs over the winter.

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 3:58:09 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Oh lord, knew I should have written more than just those three motivations. I'm not into service or obedience, but I know many subs who are service focused and many who are focused on being obedient. I'm focused on emotional transparency.
Sorry to call you on the carpet :) but one second you say your a non service sub but than show that service plays a part in your relationship. I just happened to catch it lol.

But someone who gets off on obeying no matter how useless the order isn't going to express her opinion of the stupidity of the order, she won't be open about it because that isn't the focus of her relationship. She can think being told to sing Happy Birthday ten times in a row when it's his dog's birthday to be lame, but she does it anyway because she likes being ordered.
I would do that and I don't get a thing outta being ordered, I'd do it just to hear him laugh and see him smile at me.

In the same manner, doing laundry might not get a service oriented sub off but she would still feel a warm glow at knowing she had done something useful for him. All I felt today when putting away the laundry is that he needs more socks, he's managed to lose five pairs over the winter.
But still you do it and in doing so provide a service to your dom/master/partner


Thank you and everyone for trying to help me understand a non service submissive. For this situation, the person is question just thought she would get more attention if she said she was submissive, instead of being honest bout her orintation. guess she is under that misunderstanding that their is a point system in wiitwd. plus CM doesn't allow for bottom to be a catagory.

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 5:14:15 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
Thank you and everyone for trying to help me understand a non service submissive. For this situation, the person is question just thought she would get more attention if she said she was submissive, instead of being honest bout her orintation. guess she is under that misunderstanding that their is a point system in wiitwd. plus CM doesn't allow for bottom to be a catagory.

You seem really determined to fit people into boxes and make them stick.

There isn't a submissive here who hasn't been told by someone that they aren't REALLY a submissive for whatever reason.

That doesn't mean that they aren't a submissive, it means that other people are dorks who feel the need to try and place others into boxes and when they don't fit, they somehow must be denied a status.

If a dominant does not desire or expect  X service from their sub, and both people agree to that relationship, that doesn't make the sub a bottom because she doesn't provide that service.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 7:59:01 PM   
goodpet


Posts: 458
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
That doesn't mean that they aren't a submissive, it means that other people are dorks who feel the need to try and place others into boxes and when they don't fit, they somehow must be denied a status.


Oh great LA, now you've done it.. added another catagory to worry about..

So what is the requirements to be a "true dork" or a "real dork"  do we use Dork for the top type and dork for the bottom types?  Arrgghhhh

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 8:13:12 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Well if there's no bottom box to check then you're stuck picking sub. However she may be submissive, but just to the right one.

I'm submissive to only one, no way do I go around calling anybody else sir or master. But I rejected a whole lot of doms who then said I wasn't a true sub. I'm compatible with him but not with anyone else.

(in reply to goodpet)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 8:50:40 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		We once again seem to be getting bogged down in the "TITLE" storm..one mans submissive is another mans slave or bottom or whatever..There is no pidgeon hole for any one of us in WIITWD..it is simply a matter of finding a mate with the same ideas or desires and creating a dynamic from that..."You" pick your own title......everyones mileage varies!....Tempting

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: non-service submission - 3/18/2007 9:41:29 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		as much as some may not like it words have definate meanings hence why they are called definations....... If I am looking to exchange ideas with another (3rd) party it would be a good thing to understand the words we are speaking between each other...... I come here and ask an innocent question and get a variety of responses, none of which actually answer the situation addressed. None to give example on the original topic, only to finger point at just how it is I don't get it.
Have I insulted anyone here and said that how they expressed their submission was not really a submissive? No, I did not. I came to discuss an unusual concept to me and get the whole "you just call it whatever you feel it is" yammering.
There are alot of different concepts that are blanketed under these terms, if we can not discuss them then why belong to a discussion board. I get it now.

(in reply to TemptingNviceSub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 5:41:04 AM   
MadRabbit


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Joined: 8/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

as much as some may not like it words have definate meanings hence why they are called definations


Mr. Rabbit says "Your missing the point entirely because of none of these words you have presented here actually HAVE definate, universal and clear black and white meanings."

There is no great Leather Bible. No ANSI and ISO setting universal standards that the BDSM industry adheres to.

Go read 9 books on BDSM. The definitions for bottom, submissive, and slave will change in every single book.

Start a thread on here asking the definitions for all three and every single person will provide definitions that are slightly different from everyone elses.

If we can label, we can understand it...but unfortanely, in BDSM, we are dealing with human desires and they arent easily categorized.

People approach BDSM as if they are trying to classify animals. "The lion is hungry so it will eat". "The snake is cold so it will bury itself in the sand". "The cat is dirty so it will lick itself."

"Providing a service means your a submisisve." "Not being able to say "No" means your a slave" "Wanting to be tied up and spanked means your a bottom."

Unfortanely, there is plenty of submissives who dont do the service things, plenty of slaves who can say "No", and plenty of bottoms who arent all about the "Do Me" requests.

The more you try and provide absolutes to these definitions, the more and questions and anomalies and contradictions will arise. The people who constantly cling to their own definitions as absolutes are on the same line of thinking as the Baptist heathens who cling to statements like "All gays are evil and will go to Hell" in an attempt to find solidarity in a world that is endlessly grey.

Every human being has a different set of wants, needs and desires and therefore this lifestyle and the definitions are different for everyone.

I used to think in these silly black and white terms when I first got started in all this, but now I simply view everyone as "People who are entering relationships to fulfill some desire or another."

The person who wants to wash my clothes and do my dishes as part of her dynamic isnt a "service oriented submissive" but rather someone...who wants to wash my clothes and do my dishes. Luckily, I want to have my clothes washed and my dishes done so things might work out between us. However, I also want to pull hair and fuck her in the ass and maybe she doesnt want that kind of sexuality out of her dynamic. Does this make her a "fake submissive" or simply a person who doesnt want to have hair pulled and her ass fucked? Is a black person who doesnt eat fried chicken a "fake African American" or a dude who doesnt like fried chicken?

No one here is trying to be viscious towards you. L.A is simply trying to enlighten you to the fact that your definitions dont really have definate meanings.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/19/2007 5:47:02 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 5:59:58 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Ms Parados, I said that service, obedience and emotional transparency are the three most common motivations for submission that I know. I didn't say that all three apply to me. They don't.

The only one that is applicable in my relationship is emotional transparency. The fact that I know the other two are common in other relationships is why I mentioned them. There's a lot of stuff I know of that doesn't apply to me. I don't just write from my personal experience. I write from my whole knowledge base.

And I know women who freely admit they enjoy being ordered around, even in front of innocent bystanders who are being deliberately embarrassed by their behavior. I don't get that, I don't approve of it, but I know it exists. It gets to them in a way.

I do laundry because it needs to be done. I don't keep an eye on his sock drawer and decide it's time to do it. I see when the hamper is full and wash our clothes.  I do my son's laundry at the same time and for the same reason, it needs doing. It's one of my jobs in the house.

He takes the garbage down to the end of the road not because it's a service to me but because it's pickup day and he's stronger than I am.

I'm not sure how to get you to stop looking through the lens of your own motivations because it seems as though no  matter what anyone else says you twist it so that it can agree with your preconceived notions.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 6:24:02 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

as much as some may not like it words have definate meanings hence why they are called definations....... If I am looking to exchange ideas with another (3rd) party it would be a good thing to understand the words we are speaking between each other......


until there is a unanimously accepted "BDSM Dictionary of Terms", the respondents to your question here, or anyone you might potentially exchange ideas with, are pretty much forced into explaining in detail EXACTLY what words like "submissive" or "service" mean to THEM if you intend on meaningful discourse instead of getting hung up on accurately aligning with the Webster's Dictionary version.

quote:

...I come here and ask an innocent question and get a variety of responses, none of which actually answer the situation addressed. None to give example on the original topic, only to finger point at just how it is I don't get it.  Have I insulted anyone here and said that how they expressed their submission was not really a submissive? No, I did not. I came to discuss an unusual concept to me and get the whole "you just call it whatever you feel it is" yammering. There are alot of different concepts that are blanketed under these terms, if we can not discuss them then why belong to a discussion board. I get it now.


Perhaps you could have been a bit clearer in your OP...maybe a disclaimer along the lines of:
"any yammering about defining submission on one's own terms won't be helpful to me at all, so don't bother to respond if that's all you can come up with"

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 8:35:18 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
There are alot of different concepts that are blanketed under these terms, if we can not discuss them then why belong to a discussion board. I get it now.

I thought we've been discussing them just fine, certainly I've been having versions of this discussion since 1998 when I got on board.

We might not be reaching a consensus- but I think that's because you're wanting to make this into a prescriptionary process where we can make a clear definition and then apply it so that things are either clearly included or excluded.

That's not really how this works when you're talking about anything beyond your own personal life- it's a descriptionary process- we use words and then apply definitions as they appear to be used, and that often changes over time and situations.

From a recent post of mine:
I think when it comes to real life interactions, it's rare that an actual definitions issue comes up.  Most people's definitions of things are "close enough" that it doesn't matter that they aren't exactly the same.  When a friction does occur, it's usually settled within a minute of quickie explanations of what THEY mean by the term and people move on.  Even if they don't agree, they don't need to in order to discuss whatever topic it was related to.

Communication isn't about everyone thinking exactly the same thing or having the exact same definition.  It's about transferring and understanding ideas.  The only times people tend to complain about definitions are when
a) they expect their definitions to be universal
b) we're actually having a discussion specifically focused on definitions

This is a discussion forum, which means we're going to get to the nitty gritty a lot more deeply than we would in general conversation or social discussion.  This may give the appearance that definitions are a big deal and that the whole of western civilization is disintegrating because we don't have exactly the same idea on things.

I embrace the diversity.  I don't think I have a difficult time having my perspectives understood to the point that I need for good conversation, and the few times that I do are a good exercise in clarification.

In other words, I really don't think the whole personalization of definitions thing is anything new, or a serious problem to worry about.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MsParados)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 12:52:11 PM   
MsParados


Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline 		Did everyone miss the post I wrote where it explained why I was asking this question? Or did we all just skip that post? I had encountered a term that was unknown to me and thought maybe it was a generally accepted term.... sorry I haven't been here on CM to discuss all of BDSM creation for these last few years and missed that memo. I can not understand why so many take a simple thing so personally. While yes how we express our dominance or submission is individual there are indeed some very basic defination that go along with those identifiers. Like it or not, it is what it is. There is a diference between bottom, submissive and slave and while we all may not agree on what those differences are they still exist. WHICH was not the point of my op anyway but no once again, someone misreads the point and the pack follows nipping at the heels aye. If my original question was not clear to you (general) than maybe you could have inquried about clarrification. which doesn't matter cause I got the explaination I was seeking from the other person that sparked this bs thread... geez 'um crow.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 40
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