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RE: non-service submission - 3/19/2007 1:04:46 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
While yes how we express our dominance or submission is individual there are indeed some very basic defination that go along with those identifiers.

There really aren't.

We can all agree 'closely enough' in order to have discussions and it's great to learn everyones specific twists and turns, but the idea that there really is a basic definition to apply universally is a myth.

quote:

There is a diference between bottom, submissive and slave and while we all may not agree on what those differences are they still exist.

So what happens if what you call is a bottom, is what I call a submissive?

Here's the real fun- a single person can be a bottom, a slave, a switch, a dominant, and have vanilla relationships. How would you label them?

It's not the person- it's the relationship.

I have no problems with you saying "There is a difference between these things and it is X, Y, and Z."

I will also be very easily able to present someone to you who is Y to you and X to them. You can either say that they are wrong about themselves, you are wrong about your definitions, or that your definitions work within a very limited scope and do not need to be applied universally.

It's even ok to say "They call themselves a slave but I seriously don't consider that to be true" as long as you say it to yourself or to close friends. Saying it publicly or directly to the person unless they are a close friend and asks for an honest opinion is just rude.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 41

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 12:26:19 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
While yes how we express our dominance or submission is individual there are indeed some very basic defination that go along with those identifiers.

There really aren't.

We can all agree 'closely enough' in order to have discussions and it's great to learn everyones specific twists and turns, but the idea that there really is a basic definition to apply universally is a myth.

quote:

There is a diference between bottom, submissive and slave and while we all may not agree on what those differences are they still exist.

So what happens if what you call is a bottom, is what I call a submissive?

Here's the real fun- a single person can be a bottom, a slave, a switch, a dominant, and have vanilla relationships. How would you label them?

It's not the person- it's the relationship.

I have no problems with you saying "There is a difference between these things and it is X, Y, and Z."

I will also be very easily able to present someone to you who is Y to you and X to them. You can either say that they are wrong about themselves, you are wrong about your definitions, or that your definitions work within a very limited scope and do not need to be applied universally.

It's even ok to say "They call themselves a slave but I seriously don't consider that to be true" as long as you say it to yourself or to close friends. Saying it publicly or directly to the person unless they are a close friend and asks for an honest opinion is just rude.

But there really are basic understandings in these words, I think you place to much importence on the relationships in this context. In order to be a submissive, you must submitt to something, I don't care what but there must be something..... otherwise why not just call it "slut-bung-waller?"
The original question I posed had to do with someone that claimed to be a non-service sub but had no urge or desire to submitt to anything, while yes I phrased it badly hell I do the best with what I am given to work with.
Our pov do have some similarities, I know first hand how energies can change from person to person and add more people into the mix.... well you can not label "it." BUT what can be labeled is the people inside of that relationship by words that match their intents. Most people lack insight, they are to afraid to look that deeply into themselves worried that their truth will shatter their illusions. It is far easier to look externally and just copy what we see, but for me that is not good enough, it is a mockery of living. and as far as this whole discussion only one person gave an actual example of submission in a non service orientated relationship. Maybe if I had titled this "Non submitting submissives, how does that work?" I would have gotten more of the information I was seeking

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 42

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 2:26:43 AM

SumterDom

Posts: 60
Joined: 1/29/2006
Status: offline

Having just discovered this thread, I'm coming in kind of late but briefly a couple of things stood out to me...

"non-service sub but had no urge or desire to submit to anything"

TO ME there is no such thing as a non-service sub. The word sub being used indicates at least some form or extent of submission, doesn't it? Sort of like a non-working worker. or a non-caring caregiver.

Urge? I don't really have the desire or urge to go to work everyday, but do it anyhow. The benefits outweigh my inclination in that regard.

Daffynitions? There are many for each word. We each have our own, and some most of us agree on...or are at least close enough to get a very good idea of what is being represented. What really matters here is that each of us understand how we define a word and then find someone that either defines it the same as us, or one helps the other come to a different (theirs) understanding of how a particular word will be interpreted in their relationship.

If one is going to post to discussion forums then they might want to consider that others may define words differently than they do, and accept that reality. Otherwise we'll continue to get definition wars...which takes us totally away from the intent of the op.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 43

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 4:23:30 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

But there really are basic understandings in these words, I think you place to much importence on the relationships in this context. In order to be a submissive, you must submitt to something, I don't care what but there must be something..... otherwise why not just call it "slut-bung-waller?"
The original question I posed had to do with someone that claimed to be a non-service sub but had no urge or desire to submitt to anything, while yes I phrased it badly hell I do the best with what I am given to work with.
Our pov do have some similarities, I know first hand how energies can change from person to person and add more people into the mix.... well you can not label "it." BUT what can be labeled is the people inside of that relationship by words that match their intents. Most people lack insight, they are to afraid to look that deeply into themselves worried that their truth will shatter their illusions. It is far easier to look externally and just copy what we see, but for me that is not good enough, it is a mockery of living. and as far as this whole discussion only one person gave an actual example of submission in a non service orientated relationship. Maybe if I had titled this "Non submitting submissives, how does that work?" I would have gotten more of the information I was seeking

I still seriously disagree with your views because this post, like all your other posts, are too black and white.

The word "truth" more often than not comes down to personal perspective. While I can agree with some of your points, your still applying your standards and definitions of what a submissive is as the standards and definitions for other people.

Yes, everyone must search their soul and be true to themselves, but its up to each individual to decide what that truth is and define their own label. Trying to decide what those labels are for other people is annoying.

There is a difference between saying "Well this person just simply wasnt my definition of a submissive" and saying "This person isnt a submissive."

As highlighted here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

Thank you and everyone for trying to help me understand a non service submissive. For this situation, the person is question just thought she would get more attention if she said she was submissive, instead of being honest bout her orintation. guess she is under that misunderstanding that their is a point system in wiitwd. plus CM doesn't allow for bottom to be a catagory.

Someone who only gives up control to someone else during playtime might be a bottom to me, but to someone else it might be a submissive. It might not be your definition of what submission is, but if they are following the lead of a top during the one hour scene, then they are submitting. Sure, perhaps they are dominant in other 23 hours of the day, but they are still submitting according to their definition of submission. It would come off as a bit arrogant to say they are not being "true" to themselves simply because they werent following in your parameters of what a submissive is.

Another example is this specific quote right here...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
In order to be a submissive, you must submitt to something,

Okay fair enough...I submit to the authority of my boss at work everyday. Does this make me not a dominant, but a submissive?

Dominance and submissive arent really as black and white as most people think. With more and more introspection and observation of the world we live in, I discover more and more that we're all just switches. We have to submit and we have to dominate in different aspects to survive and prosper. In D/S relationships, we are simply submitting or dominating to find fulfill in one aspect of our lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados
I don't care what but there must be something..... otherwise why not just call it "slut-bung-waller?"

Instead of that, why dont you just call everyone "people"? Thats the only universal definition that I have been able to find that works. People are simply people and they have to do their own introspection and define their own labels. Its not up for other people to decide what the truth is for them.

I find very little difference between your views and "stereotyping" which is why I disagree with you.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/20/2007 4:29:46 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 44

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 10:57:44 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
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Mad, have what ever miss-guided view you want of me or my views, you don't know either or else you would not have labeled it/me "black and white" You missed the point of the whole op and just climbed on the "you can't define anothers definations" band wagon, which I repeat for the last time was not the intent of the post. Maybe if I had drawn a diagram, you could have contributed something worth while. You dropped the ball with that work analogy dude, submissive to your boss........ does s/he practice crushing with you on your lunch hour? if not than I would say that your domliness is intact.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 45

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 11:29:49 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

Sorry for challenging your opinions that I beleive to be completely wrong. I'm sorry you have made opinions that have caused this thread to go off course. I'm sorry you wont mount a decent defense outside of "I'm right and your wrong." If someone were to say "The Holocaust didnt happen." in a thread on baking, I think most people would stop talking about baking and mention that this person is wrong.

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 3/20/2007 11:33:13 AM >

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 46

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 5:00:42 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline

i am not sure what you mean by "non-service submission." if one doesn't attend to the desires and orders of their dominant, how would they be considered submissive?

i definitely have the right to say no, i don't feel well, i don't want to do this right now. but that's just me giving him information - that doesn't mean i get out of doing it, it means he then knows i'm not keen on the idea and he can make the decision whether to go further with it.

i definitely believe that people can negotiate what control is given and what control isn't, and yes, outside of those parameters, i could understand saying no willy nilly. but if you've given sexual control to your dominant, i don't understand how saying no willy nilly actually makes you a submissive. i completely agree with you, msparados, that some turning over of control is required for submission to take place. maybe "non-service submissive" in the way the woman you're discussing is using the term is just her pc way of saying bottom?

i actually see service submission as being domestic - cooking, cleaning, serving to guests, etc. by that definition, i'm not really that much of a service submissive - he usually cooks because he's more comfortable with it that way and we clean our own spaces. we don't entertain. i would be glad to provide that service when he requires it, but it's rare for him to require it. but if we're identifying service with submission, and submission means turning over control of at least a part of your life to another person, and you do not turn over control, you are not submissive, imho.

_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 47

RE: non-service submission - 3/20/2007 8:30:12 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

i actually see service submission as being domestic - cooking, cleaning, serving to guests, etc. by that definition, i'm not really that much of a service submissive - he usually cooks because he's more comfortable with it that way and we clean our own spaces. we don't entertain. i would be glad to provide that service when he requires it, but it's rare for him to require it. but if we're identifying service with submission, and submission means turning over control of at least a part of your life to another person, and you do not turn over control, you are not submissive, imho.

That's the whole point of those of us who disagree with the op. She has redefined submission so that it must include service.

Service is doing things for someone else because you feel good in some way for doing these nonsexual chores.

Obedience is following orders.

Emotional transparency or vulnerability is opening your deepest secrets and giving the other person the opportunity to do more emotional damage than you've ever had in your life, while hoping at the same time he will accept you no matter what.

They don't all mean the same thing. And not all of us get off on the same thing.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 48

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 5:46:58 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

excuse me but where the hell did I redefine anything??? I asked a question, to which no one still has contributed anything other than double talk, contridictions in their own motivations and some finger pointing..... really productive discussion. Before anyone goes summing up my opinions and thoughts on the matter maybe you should really know wtf I was discussing.

My op was about ONE person in perticular and a self prescribed label that did not make sense to me. Just because others are inconsistant in their words, actions and lives doesn't mean I am, and that seems to be the real issue here.
But I don't care how you slice it, if you don't submit, IMO you have no right to call youself a submissive,slave, bottom, whatever and to think that these people actual represent this community is astounding....

< Message edited by MsParados -- 3/21/2007 5:53:15 AM >

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 49

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 5:56:51 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Sorry for challenging your opinions that I beleive to be completely wrong. I'm sorry you have made opinions that have caused this thread to go off course. I'm sorry you wont mount a decent defense outside of "I'm right and your wrong." If someone were to say "The Holocaust didnt happen." in a thread on baking, I think most people would stop talking about baking and mention that this person is wrong.

Are you kidding me????????????????????
I never once said ........ I never passed any judgements...............you have no idea about anything. My response to you was about "ALL my posts/ opinions being black and white" Why don't you show me where I said "I'm right, your wrong" please I'd love to see that, anywhere in any thread I have ever written, please.
Let me point out one thing, it is you that missed the point about this thread when you jumped in on that "you can't define submission" crap.

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 50

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 6:07:02 AM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

excuse me but where the hell did I redefine anything??? I asked a question, to which no one still has contributed anything other than double talk, contridictions in their own motivations and some finger pointing..... really productive discussion. Before anyone goes summing up my opinions and thoughts on the matter maybe you should really know wtf I was discussing.

My op was about ONE person in perticular and a self prescribed label that did not make sense to me. Just because others are inconsistant in their words, actions and lives doesn't mean I am, and that seems to be the real issue here.
But I don't care how you slice it, if you don't submit, IMO you have no right to call youself a submissive,slave, bottom, whatever and to think that these people actual represent this community is astounding....

I've read this entire thread and I have to say I still don't understand your original post, intent or purpose. What I have seen is folks trying to answer you as best they can but apparently not answering you as you wish them to. I don't mean to be harsh but maybe the reason you haven't received answers that you like is because there simply aren't those answers?
You're getting angry, or at least your posts reflect anger and frustration. Maybe you could try and clarify your original post?

_____________________________

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~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 51

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 9:55:35 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

Jenny, good call. It makes me angry when people assume or put words into my mouth, sorry I am human. The point of the post was looking for examples of submission in a non service dynamic other than a sexual nature. Only one gave such an example (but then another of her posts contradicted the post made in this thread. which I brought up only to clarify the discrepency) and somehow by my asking a question I get shoved in to the box of a small minded labeler..... which really is funny if you can appreciate the irony.
The why I was asking this to begin with is moot, that answer will be found out and experinced soon enough.

edited to also include: when I first wrote that post the intent of it was never clear to me.I stated as such, that I was confused, perplexed and looking for clarification. You will find that most of my post in general are conflicted in expression as everything I am, do, experience is rather disjointed but usually harmonious.
"Out of chaos, comes order"

< Message edited by MsParados -- 3/21/2007 9:59:58 AM >

(in reply to cjenny)

Post #: 52

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 10:07:50 AM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsParados

excuse me but where the hell did I redefine anything??? I asked a question, to which no one still has contributed anything other than double talk, contridictions in their own motivations and some finger pointing..... really productive discussion. Before anyone goes summing up my opinions and thoughts on the matter maybe you should really know wtf I was discussing.

My op was about ONE person in perticular and a self prescribed label that did not make sense to me. Just because others are inconsistant in their words, actions and lives doesn't mean I am, and that seems to be the real issue here.
But I don't care how you slice it, if you don't submit, IMO you have no right to call youself a submissive,slave, bottom, whatever and to think that these people actual represent this community is astounding....

quoted my own post cause it is too late ot edit and I forgot to add.......

All of those examples are perfect, but I see them as going together when your a submission. Devotion makes a servant of us all. It never occured to me that others would seperate those four qualities, in my mind they are part and parcel of a good relationship well at least the vulnerablity one but then that leads to all the others which equals the whole, a content person in a fullfilling relationship. Celeste, thank you for being the only one to give an actually example of various perspectives.

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 53

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 10:32:59 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I started to read the thread, and just became a little confused so gave up.

I can only answer from my personal point of view.

I have seen it posted that some people do not believe a submissive can be 'non service'. Well, thats just blinkered and labelling others to your own specifications which is non consensual and not BDSM.

Service does not = submission and submission doesn't always = service. From what I can gather - you are asking if there are submissives that say no on their whim. Yes, it happens. Does that make them fakes or less submissive? No - but it does bring into question why they are refusing and where the submission lays.

First I place service into context. To me service is a 'must' do. I serve my children - I serve my community - I serve my Friends and I serve my Dominant - but in different ways.

Within submission - I submit only to my dominant. But people often talk as though submission is something that is thought out - to me, it isn't - it is something that just happens. I do not have the choice who I submitted to - it was the reaction of my body and mind and of course my heart. Service is thought through. There, to me is the difference.

I think that the confusion is in the question and what one personally see as 'service' - as it is a very subjective thing.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 54

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 10:47:08 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I don't say no to him. Willy Nilly or not

I don't think people in a good or loving relationship ever say no for willy-nilly reasons.

A submissive is definitely oriented to pleasing his Domme, but as LA and others have pointed out, critical thinking, alternative ideas, and dissent are also part and partial of submission --- for if not, we'd be little more than robots in what we did and why we did it.

In the history my submission, though, I've never displayed any kind of fuck you defiance. (That seems to go to part of your question presented.)

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 55

RE: non-service submission - 3/21/2007 8:26:03 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

Really I can not see how service is not related to submission......

Here's the thing: sometimes a service oriented person can serve someone without being submissive. This happened to me in the early stages of my relationship with my boyfriend. He would often go out of his way to DO things for me, i.e. service, and I mistook that for him being submissive - it was not. He got pleasure out of doing something for me but he was only doing the things he wanted to do. It made him happy to serve me but if I wanted something that didn't make him happy, I didn't get it. As the relationship has evolved, he has become more submissive in certain realms and there is a very clear distinction between these areas (in which he is happy to be merely used for my enjoyment regardless of what he gets out of it) and the others (where he still enjoys "serving") but will not hesitate to make it known if he doesn't want to do something. For us, any potential d/s/ aspects take time to take root even though I have always been dominant and he submissive since before we met. I'm not implying, however, that he tells me "no" all willy-nilly. In fact, even though he is not always submissive to me he rarely doesn't do what I ask, tell, or advise him to do. But this is more often because he trusts my judgements and agrees with them than because he is submitting.

_____________________________

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- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 56

RE: non-service submission - 3/22/2007 3:20:06 AM

rmanrr

Posts: 358
Joined: 7/25/2006
Status: offline

I mean a situation with NO service what so ever, no turning over your body or mind on request, not a one.... doing what you want, how you want, when you want period.

MsParados....if that situation presented itself....and you viewed it...do you really think that is any type of submission in there? I mean if nothing is done upon request...I find it hard to accept that the other is submitting in any way shape or form except perhaps the fantasy play aspect. If I request something...it damn well better get done and right quickly, if, My girl is not busy attending to her biological units, her job, or family matters. All else is deserving of correction at the least and punishment at the worst. To those of you who say, but what if the sub/slave is not feeling up to it....if you are living in rt...then a Master should be able to distinguish whether or not the sub/slave is up to anything. If not then I would expect to be informed before I requested anything, anything at all. Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

(in reply to MsParados)

Post #: 57

RE: non-service submission - 3/22/2007 7:24:41 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Maybe the issue is not understanding the language (ok duh)

But more- not turning yourself over to someone, doing what you want and how you want it is NOT the same as just saying no or refusing any order.

This SOUNDS like a rehashing that "It's not submission if you like it" argument.

Just because a dom isn't ordering it, just because a slave is loving it, doesn't take away from the submission of it. If a dom tells a slave "I don't care, do what you want" that doesn't mean the sub isn't submitting, it means the dom has chosen to act on his authority in a specific way. It's a more passive way, but a lot of doms prefer to let the slave take over direct authority so the dom doesn't have to think about it or waste time on it.

A slave who is given a very long leash isn't the same as a slave who fights the leash at every turn.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to rmanrr)

Post #: 58

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