Ghosts of Vietnam (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> Ghosts of Vietnam (3/15/2007 10:23:36 PM)


I just read the following passage from FALLING THROUGH THE EARTH, by Danielle Trussoni, and it made me wonder if we've come full circle in IRAQ. (Actually, I think we have.)

>My father (a Vietnam Vet with PTSD) had recently read Robert McNamara’s book. Dad was never much of a reader, although he was quick-witted and intelligent, he had a hard time staying with a book. That one, however, got his attention. I don’t know if he finished it or not, but the parts he had read were memorable. He would rattle off sentences between sips of his drink, quoting McNamara’s admissions of his miscalculations in Vietnam. I tried to understand exactly what made Dad so angry, but after a while he went silent and would answer my questions tersely. Finally, he turned to me and said, “Do you know what that book means? Do you know what this guy is saying?”

I didn’t know anything about Robert McNamara back then. I had never even heard his name before. At that point in my life – before I studied the war --- Vietnam was not a historical event. It was just something that happened to my family.

My father shook his head disgusted. “McNamara’s saying they didn’t know what the hell they were doing over there. We were wrong from the goddamned beginning.”

When I saw him stare at his weathered hands, so defeated he couldn’t look me in the eye, I felt the same sense of sadness I had felt as a girl, when I watched Dad turn away from us, numb and distant. As a girl, I believed the war had taken him from us. It was an amorphous monster that would grab hold and pull us into it, kicking and screaming. Vietnam claimed Dad’s past, his future, his health, his dreams. It was never satisfied. It came to live in our house, eat dinner at our table, sleep in our beds. It trailed me home from school. It was an elusive yet inescapable thing skulking through my life, a Jack-the-Ripper presence that hid in alleyways and in the sewers, waiting to get me alone. Although there was no way for me as a child to understand this presence, I knew, when I saw my father’s sadness, that he had never really left Vietnam.<




seeksfemslave -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 5:17:41 AM)

I am afraid these are the kind of problems that those who have operated at life's "coal face" have to live with. Nothing much has changed in that respect.
but
quote:

As a girl,.....
puzzles me .



puella -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 5:20:19 AM)

This book documents the second wave of 'survivor's of war.  The auther is writing about how her father's life long struggle with the after affects of the war had impacted her and her entire family's lives.



meatcleaver -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 6:03:10 AM)

It looks like a book worth reading and yes, it describes Iraq. I doubt even Bush and his bunch of Strausian vampires can remember what the US is in Iraq for, just a vague memory of it seeming a good idea at the time.

These types of book should be on the school curriculum, maybe the kids will be out on the street protesting then, instead of letting the older generation fuck up their futures.



cloudboy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 6:40:45 AM)

The good thing about this book, MC, is that its doesn't have an agenda. Its not "trying" to do or say anything but tell its own little story as accurately and truly as it can.

Puella, thanks for the good summation.

This is one of the best books I've read in a long time. Aesthetically and structurally, its a constructed with great care and integrity. The author strives as best she can for unvarnished, unpretentious, realism. She pulls it off by having total committment to the tone and perspective of her 7, 12, teenage, then adult narrator.

Unlike Catcher in the Rye, the protagonist in this coming of age story comes of age. (I'm going to see how that plays out when I finish reading.)

I, too, had some experience growing up with a troubled parent, and as a child and later as an adult you continually ask yourself "why" was my parent "like that." Its as if the pain and destruction in one's household had to have a reason, and that finding that reason is the key to coming to terms with the childhood that still grips you well into adulthood.



thompsonx -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 6:56:09 AM)

I have read McNamara's book.  I do not buy his self serving "I did'nt understand...I did'nt know bullshit.  Those miserable cocksuckers knew exactly what they were doing and did it with gusto.
Iraq is the same shit all over again.
Same mud different day.
thompson



pahunkboy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 7:15:37 AM)

a few yrs back- i actually had someone report me to yahoo- over a pic on a group.  anyone "over 30" will recall the 9 year old naked girl runnning in the street after a napon burn.  anyhow- despite this photo being seen around the world- the folks at yahoo deemed it as child porn... go figure....



meatcleaver -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 8:34:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The good thing about this book, MC, is that its doesn't have an agenda. Its not "trying" to do or say anything but tell its own little story as accurately and truly as it can.



It's on my list. I agree, the best polemics are personal stories without an agenda, something you absorb and which alters your perception without being fully conscious of the process.



cloudboy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 9:15:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's on my list. I agree, the best polemics are personal stories without an agenda, something you absorb and which alters your perception without being fully conscious of the process.


Well, FALLING THROUGH THE EARTH is not a polemic. Its an open wound, a boldly told rumination.

The USA doesn't much believe in "bad" history or its own mistakes, much less rumination. The USA operates on selective memory and optimisim. It quite gladly accepts the title of "the greatest country on the earth" without so much as a second thought or a grain of doubt. Its why many Americans regard President Ronald Reagan as one of our greatest Presidents.



pahunkboy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 9:18:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

It's on my list. I agree, the best polemics are personal stories without an agenda, something you absorb and which alters your perception without being fully conscious of the process.


Well, FALLING THROUGH THE EARTH is not a polemic. Its an open wound, a boldly told rumination.

The USA doesn't much believe in "bad" history or its own mistakes, much less rumination. The USA operates on selective memory and optimisim. It quite gladly accepts the title of "the greatest country on the earth" without so much as a second thought or a grain of doubt. Its why many Americans regard President Ronald Reagan as one of the greatest leaders of our nation.


LMAO.  u r with us; or u r against us....... burppp



Sinergy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 9:36:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I have read McNamara's book.  I do not buy his self serving "I did'nt understand...I did'nt know bullshit.  Those miserable cocksuckers knew exactly what they were doing and did it with gusto.
Iraq is the same shit all over again.
Same mud different day.
thompson


Hello A/all,

I am not so sure, thompsonx, that they did it with gusto.  It was a situation where they had a parameter (the Red Menace) painted in flaming red letters inside their skull, which blinded them to the extant reality of the world.

This would include the antipathy going back thousands of years between the Chinese and the Russians.  Then you have the fundamental differences between what Stalin called Communism and what Mao called Communism.

Although a similarity between Vietnam and Iraq which nobody talks about is that the United States did not really care if Vietnam was communist, but they did not want the Russians or Chinese to have the ability to block the oil tankers stretching between the middle east and Japan.

Since they could never open their eyes and look at the truth, it became relatively easy to rely on our vast technological superiority to, as they say, kill people and blow shit up.

As you pointed out, now we have a situation where a bunch of oil men have a parameter (global hegemony and control of oil supply) painted in flaming red letters inside their skull, blinding them to the extant reality of the world.

Now we have people who dont understand the thousands of years of infighting and animosity between different religious sects, as well as a civilization based on armed warlords amassing power.

Instead of paranoia, we have greed and hubris.  So it becomes easy for them to rely on our vast technological superiority to kill people and blow shit up.

Sinergy



Real0ne -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 10:24:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I have read McNamara's book.  I do not buy his self serving "I did'nt understand...I did'nt know bullshit.  Those miserable cocksuckers knew exactly what they were doing and did it with gusto.
Iraq is the same shit all over again.
Same mud different day.
thompson


yeh along with johnson and the hunt boys, big biz arms sales, you hit dead nuts on the mark t.  These assholes trying to take a shot as revising history,  doesnt want to go down as the murdering scumbags they really are.





cloudboy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 10:31:49 AM)

Well, I do think its possible to learn from mistakes. In the FOG OF WAR, McNamara said that one red flag to guard against foriegn policy mistakes is if a nation cannot convince its closest allies to back it, its cause probably isn't a good one.

As far as IRAQ goes, when the USA couldn't get Turkey to join up, I knew something was terribly amiss.

As for McNamara, him confronting the past is preferable to being in denial about it.



thompsonx -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 12:15:53 PM)

Sinergy:
You are a pretty quick witted fellow but you still buy into a lot of crap.
If there was such a fear and hatred of the commie menace then why were we trading with the evil empires all through the cold war.
Everyounce of titanium that is used in the SR71 came from Russia.
I used to work for one of the only two companies that make rock drilling bits in the whole world (it is what you use to drill for oil) and we shipped to Russia and China by the mega ton.
It is all bs....it is just like George Orwell says in 1984....we change enemies and friends at a keystroke.
thompson



SusanofO -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 12:29:07 PM)

When my father was a teen, he golf-caddied a few times at a country club for McNamara (and maybe he really is confronting his past, in which case, it's about time, IMO, lol [:)] glad it happened, I agree. He my now regret some of his past decisions, in which case, he's human. But he was also affecting many lives besides his own, his family's and those within his immediate reach, too. So, IMO, he needed to be able to act extra responsibly). But- at the time anyway, my father said he was an arrogant, inconsiderate jerk, who made fun of his fellow golfer's shots, and also treated "the help" like dirt.

I normally wouldn't say anything about that, and some might not find it particularly relevant (but I do) and also, hey - it's my father. I think you can tell a lot about someone by the way they treat others, and justify their own ends in a somewhat "it's all about me" style. This might not invalidate the integrity of their decision-making process, but sometimes I think when the ca-ca hits the fan, so to speak, it can really be a foreboding sign of what may be to come...

I always thought, from the start, that Rumsfeld appeared to have some of those same traits. As far as leadership goes - one of the most pertinent is, IMO, knowing when to put one's own ego on hold, and seeing when it's gotten out-of-hand, and being able to see the so-called "big picture", and admit you could have made a few errors in judgment. Yes, I do think the two situations appear to have definite factors in common, in terms of the military leadership.

Wish Norman Schwazkopf had not retired, would have liked to see him in that position, instead. He may have been  called "Stormin' Norman", etc, but he knew his stuff, and he was a real leader, considered his moves carefully, and took responsibility for everything he did, IMO. 

- Susan   



seeksfemslave -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 1:00:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I have read McNamara's book.  I do not buy his self serving "I did'nt understand...I did'nt know bullshit.  Those miserable cocksuckers knew exactly what they were doing and did it with gusto.
Iraq is the same shit all over again.
Same mud different day.
thompson


I suspect they , being the drones not the policy makers, probably did enter into it with gusto but I think that they soon discovered their mistake, or did they ? I have often wondered why Jane Fonda still attracts so much hatred over her stance on Viet Nam.

McNamara's contrition now is greater than any  I have ever seen in any major policy maker who participated in making disastrous, not to say wicked, decisions. Lot of good that will do.



thompsonx -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/16/2007 1:30:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
I have read McNamara's book.  I do not buy his self serving "I did'nt understand...I did'nt know bullshit.  Those miserable cocksuckers knew exactly what they were doing and did it with gusto.
Iraq is the same shit all over again.
Same mud different day.
thompson


I suspect they , being the drones not the policy makers, probably did enter into it with gusto but I think that they soon discovered their mistake, or did they ? I have often wondered why Jane Fonda still attracts so much hatred over her stance on Viet Nam.

McNamara's contrition now is greater than any  I have ever seen in any major policy maker who participated in making disastrous, not to say wicked, decisions. Lot of good that will do.

seeksfemslave:
The hatred of Ms. Fonda is a way of validating ones participation in a war of agression.  Not many people can stand up and own up to being a fool.
thompson



Sinergy -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/17/2007 1:45:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
You are a pretty quick witted fellow but you still buy into a lot of crap.
If there was such a fear and hatred of the commie menace then why were we trading with the evil empires all through the cold war.
Everyounce of titanium that is used in the SR71 came from Russia.
I used to work for one of the only two companies that make rock drilling bits in the whole world (it is what you use to drill for oil) and we shipped to Russia and China by the mega ton.
It is all bs....it is just like George Orwell says in 1984....we change enemies and friends at a keystroke.
thompson


If what I said was bs, thompsonx, why exactly were we in Vietnam?

Sinergy



NorthernGent -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/17/2007 3:14:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
You are a pretty quick witted fellow but you still buy into a lot of crap.
If there was such a fear and hatred of the commie menace then why were we trading with the evil empires all through the cold war.
Everyounce of titanium that is used in the SR71 came from Russia.
I used to work for one of the only two companies that make rock drilling bits in the whole world (it is what you use to drill for oil) and we shipped to Russia and China by the mega ton.
It is all bs....it is just like George Orwell says in 1984....we change enemies and friends at a keystroke.
thompson


thompson,

You're onto something here, mate. Governments and establishments organise games with each other and they have the likes of you, I and the wider population play these games through propaganda. The establishments don't believe any of that old bollocks about right and wrong, good and bad - they're in it for status. As an example, the French and British establishments who battled it out for centuries absolutely adored one another and had the utmost mutual respect. It was the wider population who hated each other because of centuries of propaganda (some of which still exists in both English and French language today), but the propaganda and hate was necessary in order to persuade the wider population to a) fight in these games organised by establishments and b) pay the taxes to fund these games. Reds under the bed and Islamo-fascists - same, old story.

You'd think, well hope, with the knowledge we have today in the West, we would not fall for the likes of Vietnam and Iraq, but propaganda is such a powerful tool. As per Lenin, a lie told often enough becomes the truth.



thompsonx -> RE: Ghosts of Vietnam (3/20/2007 7:18:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sinergy:
You are a pretty quick witted fellow but you still buy into a lot of crap.
If there was such a fear and hatred of the commie menace then why were we trading with the evil empires all through the cold war.
Everyounce of titanium that is used in the SR71 came from Russia.
I used to work for one of the only two companies that make rock drilling bits in the whole world (it is what you use to drill for oil) and we shipped to Russia and China by the mega ton.
It is all bs....it is just like George Orwell says in 1984....we change enemies and friends at a keystroke.
thompson


If what I said was bs, thompsonx, why exactly were we in Vietnam?

Sinergy

Sinergy:
Some would say oil,tin and rubber....but don't forget the home grown profiteers...Olin Mathison, Winchester, Swift,Hormel, McDonnald Douglas Dupont just to name a few of the war toy manufacturers. 
I am sure you have read Smedley Butler's book "War is a Racket" He names names and shows the increase in their profits due to their war profiteering.
thompson



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