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RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/16/2007 8:45:49 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
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If your wife would be devastated if she learned of it, then it's wrong.
If she would be devastated if you told her of your feelings, then telling her is also wrong.
Divorcing her would devastate her also and your family if any.

However, living a life of despair is also wrong. Unfortunately there is no pat answer here. Only you know what you need and what you can do without.

Myself, I'm more European in my outlook. Divorcing a women who has raised your children and always been a good wife is wrong. But not fulfilling your own needs and being desperately unhappy is also wrong. Europeans solve that by having quiet affairs and not destroying the home.

Americans think destroying the home is more honorable. You do what works best for all of you. Because your wife's happiness is important but so is your own.

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 21

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/16/2007 10:14:21 PM

SweetDommes

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Joined: 10/5/2004
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Do you honestly think that his wife will be happy if he continues to have affairs? Do you honestly think that she won't ever find out? I'd be willing to guess that if she doesn't already suspect, she will soon if he continues sneaking around. And when she finds out, it will be worse all the way around - she will be more hurt by his sneaking around than she would be if he were just honest, and he will be hurting financially ... significantly, depending on what she decides to do.

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 22

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/16/2007 11:14:31 PM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline

This whole thread is pretty much why I've avoided getting married in the past. I've never actually found a dominant partner to whom I could marry; well, not exactly true as I did find one once and as I was so new to dating I completely screwed that one up without even having done anything bad, but I digress. As a result, I would never marry someone who was not a part of my submissive lifestyle. It wouldn't be fair to her, nor do I believe it would be fair to me. I would NEVER think about doing sessions with someone if I was married. To marry someone would mean respecting that woman for the rest of our lives and integrating her into my life so that our lives become one, especially one without secrets and betrayals.

_____________________________

<---- FYI, this picture looks JUST like me

http://www.littlesarbonn.com/Stickman/Stickman.htm
The Adventures of Stickman and the Unemployed Lego Spaceman

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Post #: 23

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 5:16:41 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
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SD: If she finds out then she will be unhappy. She'll also be unhappy if he tells her openly how she doesn't fulfill him. She'll be unhappy if he divorces her. He's unhappy now.

So find a solution that will make everyone happy.

I can't suggest a win-win solution because there isn't one. Your suggestion is that he should continue to be unhappy and unfulfilled forever. You think his wife won't notice that?

(in reply to littlesarbonn)

Post #: 24

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 5:50:29 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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Arrgh! How is it a person can be married and have so little inimacy? How do you know your wife isn't secretly wishing SHE could be in charge once in a while. You have settled into predictible roles and you assume she wouldn't like to Domme you but of course you've never discussed any of this with the one person with whom you should be the most intimate.

Try going away somewhere for a weekend, it's easier to get out of roles and predictible behavior when away from home and routines. Take your wife to an adult toy store and suggest it might be fun to play a game where she's the Mistress and you are the slave.... What would it hurt? You have no idea how many times in vanilla relationships where i had wished my boyfriend wasn't so damned accomodating but i didn't have the words to tell him what i really wanted. You assume your wife is too submissive and she assumes you are too dominant and how do you know she wouldn't just love to have the roles reversed?

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 25

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 7:47:28 AM

swtnsparkling

Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

Europeans solve that by having quiet affairs and not destroying the home.

Are these quite affairs done by both husband and wife do they each have their own? Do they each know of these affairs and agree to them. Or is this quiet affair done by only one and kept a secrect from the other spouse?

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace

A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 26

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 8:35:22 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

In my experience, it is tacitly agreed not to discuss the subject. Don't ask, don't tell. However that was how it was done in the years before AIDS. I'm not sure how it would work now.

I've known husbands and wives who were obviously both having affairs and yet still stayed married, raising the family together, vacationing together, still friends. I've known women who have had affairs while their husbands didn't and men who had them while their wife didn't.

One thing I have discovered in my life, is that any permutation or possibility you can think of, someone else has tried.

But as I said, the op is between a rock and a hard place. If he's miserable and unhappy it will negatively impact the marriage. If she's happy and he isn't, resentment builds. If he's happy and she isn't, same result. I can't see a good ending for this, if someone else can see a workable solution for him instead of just calling him a cheater, they sure haven't posted it.

(in reply to swtnsparkling)

Post #: 27

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 8:58:08 AM

TexasMaam

Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

corysub,

It's not the definition of what constitutes sex and what doesn't that matters in terms of fidelity and cheating: it's the definition of INTIMACY that matters.

You did not vow in marriage to keep 'only unto her' 'except for anal penetration and flogging and cumming without intercourse', did you? Bah.

I understand more than most on these boards exactly what it means to be involved in a close extramarital relationship, especially a close extramarital BDSM relationship. I understand, more than most on these boards, how addictive BDSM activities are and how impossible it can seem to leave a marriage where your BDSM needs are left unfulfilled. It's a complex issue and only you can answer the question that you pose to the forum.

In short, you know perfectly well that if your wife watched a video of you with a Pro Domme, engaging in anal penetration, in sensual flogging, in servicing and submission to a Pro Domme, that your wife would feel violated, betrayed and wounded. She would be wounded by the way you shared such intimacy with another. INTIMACY.

You KNOW this. It's not the definition of sex that's at issue. It's not the strange gradients between venial sin and mortal sin that's at issue. It's not that intercourse is in some nebulous way more 'intimate' than any other activity. Comparing intercourse to anal penetration is simply a study in rhetoric. My thrusting a dong up your ass is pretty intimate, make no mistake about it.

In violating that intimacy, you ended your marriage, no matter how long you may cling to the memory of what your marriage once was.

Your marriage is now only a shell of what it was and could be.

Your wife is the victim of subterfuge and deceit, however much you might like the Clintonian candy coating that denies that cumming with a strap on up your ass equivocates to sex or to intercourse. Cum on the blue dress, not in the pussy inside the blue dress, and you think that in some way you haven't violated the intimacy that belongs to your wife? Come on. Get real.

In the end, only YOU know how much deceit you can live with. You are not being fair to your wife, but it's YOUR decision, and no one else's to make. Even if you give up your BDSM activities, and even if you eventually breathe a sigh of relief and happily embrace your home life with your wife, the dynamics of your marriage will have forever changed.

In most of these situations, the wife usually already knows, deep in her heart.

The red flags can't help but tell her that something is seriously out of place. Unless, of course, she's Hillaryesque in her denial of it, which has been known to happen, too. Many times the wife chooses to overlook the violations, even repeat violations, because she loves her husband so very much. Sad, because if you 'love' your wife as you convince yourself that you do, the violation of intimacy would never have occurred.

So in the end, it comes down to whether or not you, and your wife, choose to perpetuate a sham, knowing the the love, and intimacy, and sanctity of your marriage has been forever shattered, whether you ever actually discuss it together, or not.

Take Hillary and Bill: she moved to New York but won't divorce him because......she loves him. But their marriage, their life as a joined spiritual, psychological, coupling, two people who became one, is OVER and will never be again.

If you can live within a broken, dead marriage, best of luck to you. It's a pretty tough row to hoe. Unless you add the amazing aspect of forgiveness. But to be forgiven, and discover that you are loved unconditionally, takes courage.

Courage begins with honesty. I challenge you to sit down with your wife and tell her honestly what you have been up to, and then muster up the courage to ask her forgiveness. If you want true freedom from your dilemma, that's what it will take.

TexasMaam

< Message edited by TexasMaam -- 3/17/2007 9:04:22 AM >

_____________________________

~ My opinions are not necessarily those of the management... ~

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 28

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 9:11:24 AM

silentrunner

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Joined: 3/9/2007
Status: offline

The thread should be closed after this posting.....

Wonderful insight!

(in reply to TexasMaam)

Post #: 29

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 9:33:14 AM

FelinePersuasion

Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline

Yes. It is absolutely positivly cheating if you're going outside your relationship with out permission. Most people here think cheaters are should be strung up by their balls. And not the fun kind of strung up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

Do you feel a married man who spends any time with a woman is cheating even though he loves his wife but she is vanilla and would never understand his submissive nature and possibly leave him?

What do woman think of a married man fulfilling his deepest desires and need in this way..is he really being unfaithful?

_____________________________

Most of the time if it looks like BS, smells like BS, you probably should not t taste it to see if, in fact, it is BS.

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 30

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 9:44:44 AM

bisearching

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Joined: 2/18/2007
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Sure it is cheating. but you are never going to be happy if you stop what your doing. I think the really important thing here is to continue to very discreet and not hurt your family. I wonder how many of the respondants here have not had an affair or a one night stand and never told their spouse. There is far more harm done to all in the telling. ya you should have not ever started but the deed is done. Get over the natural human need to confess and enjoy your lusts.

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 31

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 11:32:09 AM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

SD: If she finds out then she will be unhappy. She'll also be unhappy if he tells her openly how she doesn't fulfill him. She'll be unhappy if he divorces her. He's unhappy now.

So find a solution that will make everyone happy.

I can't suggest a win-win solution because there isn't one. Your suggestion is that he should continue to be unhappy and unfulfilled forever. You think his wife won't notice that?

I am not suggesting "that he should continue to be unhappy and unfulfilled forever" - I'm suggesting that he be honest and minimize the pain and suffering; get it done and over with so that they can both move on with their lives in whatever way that they decide TOGETHER with both of them knowing the whole truth. Remember that whole SSC thing that most of us subscribe to? Safe, Sane and Consensual can only happen if everyone involved knows what is going on for them to consent to or not.

You are right, there is no win/win solution to the problem, but there are ways to minimize the damage that he is doing to himself and to her. That way is to be honest with himself and with her about his wants and needs. Honestly, what kind of relationship is he having if he can't be honest anyway?

_____________________________

Miss Karen and Miss Holly

Earth is the insane asylum for the universe.

Friends are God's apology for relatives

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 32

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 11:53:08 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bisearching

Sure it is cheating. but you are never going to be happy if you stop what your doing. I think the really important thing here is to continue to very discreet and not hurt your family. I wonder how many of the respondants here have not had an affair or a one night stand and never told their spouse. There is far more harm done to all in the telling. ya you should have not ever started but the deed is done. Get over the natural human need to confess and enjoy your lusts.

~~Raises her hand

I've had affairs and once I even had a one night stand... and I told my husband about it. I also told my first husband to find someone else to sleep with, cuz it wasn't happening with me. Honesty is a big deal to me and it only hurts for a little while. Lies on the other hand, totally distroy trust and respect and the pain lingers for years.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to bisearching)

Post #: 33

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 8:19:29 PM

corysub

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Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Thank You Mistress C for the advice...I guess I opened a can of worms for myself...

(in reply to MsCfromMelbourne)

Post #: 34

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/17/2007 8:30:29 PM

corysub

Posts: 1492
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Thank you Ms TexasMaam, I think you said it all. I'm not sure where my path is from this point on but everyone who commented here really has given an honest appraisal and opinion of my issues.
I have to do some serious self-questioning. Everything that was said here, just about unanimously, was really appreciated. Thank you A/all for taking the time to post.

cory

(in reply to TexasMaam)

Post #: 35

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/18/2007 8:59:11 AM

TexasMaam

Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

corysub,

My point is not that you need to break your wife's heart, especially if she is the mother of your children, or that you should sit down today and confess all. You, and I, and everyone else here knows that to do so will risk losing the love of your life and carries with it the possibility of alienating your children and family forever.

A high price to pay for honesty and freedom from guilt, but there it is.

My point is that only YOU can decide what you can live with. Once you make that decision you have to live with the consequences, whatever they might turn out to be.

If you look here to CM for sympathy or empathy for extramarital BDSM relationships you've come to the wrong place. These boards are extremely intolerant of clandestine BDSM play where the partner is left clueless.

Ironic, isn't it, since so many married men come to CM to find pro Dommes and available, lonely subbies to fill their secret needs and desires ???

Add to that the new front page ads, phone sex, come fuck me whores, and hook up services that abound, and you have a BDSM populace who condems the activity outside marriage and yet advertises to encourage it.

There are four basic groups of people here at CM who have an opinion on extramarital BDSM relationships:

1. the Pros, who depend upon BDSM activities and products to make their living, who are adamantly against extramarital activity without the knowledge of the participant's spouse.

2. the Pros, who depend upon BDSM activities and products to make their living, who generate most of their income by servicing extramarital activities without the knowledge of the participant's spouse.

3. The non pros who are adamantly against extramarital activity without the knowledge of the participant's spouse.

4. The non pros who are either married and engaged in extramarital activity without the knowledge of the spouse or who contentedly adopt a live and let live policy and remain neutral on the subject.

One would think that a lively debate would ensue that would involve about 50% responses pro and con, but that's not what happens here on the boards.

It really doesn't matter what anyone here on the boards thinks about your situation, either.

Take time for reflection and do what is best for you and your family, and live with the consequences.

That's really all you can do.

Good luck to you,

TexasMaam

_____________________________

~ My opinions are not necessarily those of the management... ~

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 36

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/18/2007 9:15:49 AM

MiladyAngelique

Posts: 107
Joined: 8/11/2006
Status: offline

Think of it like this, if you found out your wife was seeing a master would you feel it was cheating.... of course you would.

if you are hiding it you are at the very least cheating your wife of the knowledge, and cheating your Domme of true ownership.

(in reply to Araven)

Post #: 37

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/18/2007 9:42:59 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Sorry, if he sits down and tells her that isn't to increase the intimacy in the marriage. That's usually because the party in the wrong can't live with their guilt so they claim they are being honest while still lying to themselves about how much they're hurting their partner. Studies of men who have had an affair prove that if they come home and confess it doesn't help the marriage most of the time, it just means both of them are unhappy. His guilt isn't her problem, it's his.

If he knows that hearing this will help her because she has already sensed that he's unhappy and she's asked him to talk to her that's one thing. But if she's hiding her head in the sand then she won't be happy to have his activities shoved in her face when she's already made it plain that she doesn't want to know.

As far as a useful suggestion, I have one. Find a marriage counselor and go yourself. Ask them first how much knowledge or experience they have in alternative sexuality. Go by yourself to talk about your issues, that way if the therapist isn't open to hearing about your issues you go look for another one who will not judge you. Then you work out as much of the problem with the therapist, and after that is when you work on intimacy problems with the marriage if you want to. But only after working out your issues should you say to your wife that you want her to come into counseling with you.

(in reply to MiladyAngelique)

Post #: 38

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/18/2007 10:32:02 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

I know married men like myself tend to rationalize the things we do, but I would like to ask a question that might apply to more than a few subbies here as well.

I am happily married and for most of my life have carried myself in family and business relationships as a strong, if not macho man. However, about five years ago I saw a story about D/s dungeons in NYC that turned me on. Feeling the need for some sort of release from the pressures of the time, I went for a session with a Pro Domme and it just blew me away it was so fantastic. Turning over total control to her was such a realease. Ever since that time I have been with quite a few FemDoms's and count one of them as a good friend, although I don't see her since moving to Pennsylvania.

Ok, now the question, finally. During every one of my sessions/visits not once did I have intercourse with the woman. We did most everything else, althogh I am not into pain, but we never had penetration. On the other hand, I was taken with a strap-on quite a few times. Is this sex? Do you feel a married man who spends any time with a woman is cheating even though he loves his wife but she is vanilla and would never understand his submissive nature and possibly leave him?

What do woman think of a married man fulfilling his deepest desires and need in this way..is he really being unfaithful? It has helped me to get through some really bumpy spots in life, and it is hard for me to see any alternative since I will never leave or tell my wife. (Ducks and waits for the blows.)

Many people will consider this to be cheating but I suggest you not be one of them. The last thing you need to be doing to yourself now is mentally berrating yourself. Yes you could come out of the dungeon, so to speak, lay it all on your wife and get incredibly lucky and find she takes to it like a duck takes to water.   Before you know it, you're trussed up like a Christmas turkey on more occassions than you can count. Or she could freak out and both your world's would turn upside down, not to mention that of your children if you have any.

If you do feel the need to tell her, seek help. Have information available... download some pamphlets from BDSM groups or pro domination websites that briefly explain what BDSM and commercial domination is and what they say they are not, to give to her.  Explain how the idea of not having to make the choices, to not be the responsible one for once, when you were watching the documentary was appealing and the activities, the exotic settings, to achieve this arousing. You began to wonder what it would feel to be like one of the men in that programme and rightly or wrongly ultimately sought out a pro dom.  That is was exhilierating and intoxicating.   Maybe it resonnated with you so because it is something you've always needed just never acknowledged or known what to acknowledge. But that intial session helped at a time when you were stressed out and seeing a pro dom has helped you during many times of stress since.  That this is neither something for her to accept or understand but to her willingness to consider doing either would be appreciated.   That you've come to realise something over the past five years, that you do love her and but loving her as you do, you rightly or wrongly assumed that she would not understand, and that was not fair on her, to assume you know her capacity for loving you, warts and all. Like all the years you've only let her 'love' the parts of you that are 'safe' and 'presentable' and dare I say it 'normal', maybe scared she'd reject the parts of you that are not.   We'll here is a part of me that is not.

Only you can know whether or not you can handle telling her and her handle being told. Personally, I'd continue as you are and not let myself be guilted by anonymous words on an internet website.   Guilt can be a very selfish emotion.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to corysub)

Post #: 39

RE: Is it sex? Is it cheating? Is there a way? - 3/19/2007 2:13:27 AM

swtnsparkling

Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Chelste42
Europeans solve that by having quiet affairs and not destroying the home.

quote:

swtnsparkling
Are these quite affairs done by both husband and wife do they each have their own? Do they each know of these affairs and agree to them

quote:

Celeste43
In my experience, it is tacitly agreed not to discuss the subject. Don't ask, don't tell.

I bet they both know. It is not hidden from one spouse. There is the difference
If it is the agreement with both, Hey that's cool

opps- screwed up quotes

< Message edited by swtnsparkling -- 3/19/2007 2:18:57 AM >

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace

A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 40

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