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What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 8:50:13 AM   
popeye1250


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I don't think we've really seen any "Leadership" in govt at the Presidential level since Ronald Reagan.
Like him or not he had that special something that made him a "Leader."
So did John Kennedy. So did Franklin Roosevelt and his cousin Teddy.
Did Reagan always make good decisions? No, of course not.
His 1986 "amnesty" for illegal aliens has proved to be a disaster.
Look at the "Bay of Pigs" for Kennedy. Another disaster.
I'm looking at the Presidential Candidates and trying to see if I can detect any leadership qualities about them.
Sadly there's not much.
I've had Ship Captains (few) who were great leaders in the military and most who were not. Those who were not just went through the motions and stayed in their cabins most of the time.
The good ones would be out throughout the ship talking with the crew seeking feedback on better ways to do things, getting a handle on potential problems before they happened, and establishing a repoire with everyone on the crew.
They were the "my door is always open" types.
One thing they all had in common was that they cared about the welfare of their crew and you could "feel" it!
I think that there are only a very few actual "leadership" postions in life.
I don't consider senators or congressmen "leaders" in that they are in office to do "The People's" bidding but most of them end up getting involved in legislation that is favorable to big business.
That is, we don't elect them to "lead" us we elect them to do a job that (any) citizen is qualified to do.
Pretty simple stuff to quote the actor Spencer Tracy; "Come in on time and don't bump into the furniture."
Sadly, most of them don't *listen* to their constituents like they're supposed to be doing.
It's sometimes amazing to see who is a true leader compared to the people who put the words "Leader" or "Leadership" in their resumes.
I don't see it in Hillary Clinton obviously,(Anyone who yells at a maid or waiters is not a leader.) nor Senator Aba Daba, he's another frat boy, nor in McCain as he sold his soul to special interests long ago.
That's particularly sad because he (was) a leader while he was in the military but obviously he didn't transition that into civilian life.
Guiliani, has a little bit but I just can't see myself marching "to hell and back" for him. Probably not even down to the corner store.
I just have a suspician that we won't see any of the above in the White House in 2009.
I just don't think getting good grades in college or university bestows "leadership."
That's what all 4 of them have in common.
("I'm a better leader because I had a 3.5 and you only had a 3.4!")
I did have a Captain in the USCG that we would "march to hell and back" for.
It's nice to be in the presense of true leadership but I don't think it happens too often in life and much less often in politics.
I don't think "Leadership" is something that they can teach you at Harvard Business School.
What do you think?
What is "Leadership"? How is it obtained or how do you get it?
I do think that if someone is a "Leader" you can "recognise" it but that it's very rare.
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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 8:55:55 AM   
moki1984


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I understand what you are saying perfectly. When I was in the army I knew many people in leadership positions that simply had no meaning being their. I loved teh blind leadership everyone gave in the army not knowing what the hell they were doing somtimes (sarcasm meant for the loving it part) I think many people believe they have those leadership abilities for various tasks, but unfortunately good leaders are few and far inbetween. I will always remember one sgt I met in the army...this man was such a naturl leader. He was strict and you dare not bend hsi rules, but he also had a compassionate, human nature to him that made you feel comfortable in addressing hi mwith your problems and life as long as you alawys maintained 100% respect and spoke to him in a way that showed that.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 8:58:54 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moki1984

I understand what you are saying perfectly. When I was in the army I knew many people in leadership positions that simply had no meaning being their. I loved teh blind leadership everyone gave in the army not knowing what the hell they were doing somtimes (sarcasm meant for the loving it part) I think many people believe they have those leadership abilities for various tasks, but unfortunately good leaders are few and far inbetween. I will always remember one sgt I met in the army...this man was such a naturl leader. He was strict and you dare not bend hsi rules, but he also had a compassionate, human nature to him that made you feel comfortable in addressing hi mwith your problems and life as long as you alawys maintained 100% respect and spoke to him in a way that showed that.


Moki, yup! I guess I'm (We're) spoiled!

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 9:03:46 AM   
pahunkboy


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Hey Popeye,

excellent post!!!!! bravo!

the media would prefer us bickering. you pose very good points. even in the small cm crowd- we collectively have abundant talent. now multiply that 1000 fold.

a good idea will stand on its own weight.

i wish folks like you had a bigger voice in govt.  REAL ppl.

you ROCK!

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 9:43:41 AM   
ferryman777


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Leadership.......well, how about being the son of a president, being AWOL most of your military career, so much so your commanding officer begins dishonorable discharge filings against you,  being one of the lowest graduates in your class, being a drunkard, usurpation of the office of president with the aid of your brother, waging an unlawful war, driving a country into the largest dept in history.

THAT, Popeye is what makes a leader.

AS to future leaders......Hillary; maybe, however it does not matter, with all the negative media the Clintons were and are subjected to, she, if she has the ability, will never get to use it. If she regines, she will be destroyed in the media before she even says, I Do. The negative past history will demolish her, the current chaoic economic woes she will inherit well be the final blow.

Then we will have another Leader.......Arnold and Jeb Bush will emerge to save the nation from the debalicle of the Hillary years. Arnold will be mediarized as a heroic success of epic proportions, coming, impoverished, from Austria with nothing but his gym bag, and becoming the greatest american success story of the century.  He should not be penialized for not being a natural born citizen of his dopted homeland, the USofA. The USof A cannot afford, because of some vague words written centuries ago, lose a Leader such as he. The consitution is outdated, and we are living in new and dangerous times, which require bold, aggressive ideas to save this country from the mistakes of the self serving  Hillary era.  Arnold has proven himself capable of leading and bringing this nation to it's former greatness and prosperity we all have enjoyed during the Bush era, when our very security and children were put in harms way by terrorist which have no compassion for life, liberty, peace and the pursuit of the american dream. The wakeup call was given then, with 9-11, and was answered by a Leader who showed he was not afraid of world opinion, would not be cowarded into submission and yeild to terror and the assault on american citizens, but brave enough to go against the fury and fire, of a terrorist threat to our country. That time is here and now, and demands a Leader to take the helm and guide US into the future.

Don't forget about 'Silverado' Neil either.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 9:50:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Leadership skills is much more important to me than any party affiliation.

The media meat grinder feeds on leaders though. Making an absolute statement of conviction and integrity is the surest way of being eliminated from contention. We seem to prefer hypocrisy; an "environmental" candidate whose lived their entire life flying in a private jet, a "financial conservative" candidate that supports expanding government spending, a "domestic security" candidate who supports open borders and amnesty to criminals coming over those borders.  Senator Obama's popularity can be directly associated by his lack of statements on record which contradict his current, handler crated image. Senator Clinton unfortunately has to deal with votes on record of her support of the Iraq war. Mr. Guilianni may be the closest thing to a major candidate of integrity and work ethic with historical reference verification. The negative focus on him by his party illustrates the point. He's being challenged on his stance on abortion and his "family values". Not enough 'head-bobbing' throughout the Republican party will ultimately doom him.  

Leadership is given lip service as a desire, but most people only want leadership represented by people they can 'head-bob' in rhythm to the entire speech. As a result you get candidates who first check the opinion poles before responding to a question or establishing a platform. At the end of the 'star search' style of popularity process out the other end come candidates that polarize the nation. They 'lead' in generating opposition. The one that generates the least opposition ends up winning. The electorate deciding the election ends up being voters who are voting against the candidate on the other side, not for the person they check off in the voting booth. Is there much doubt that this is what happened in 2004? The most ardent support of President Bush came from voters who were voting against Senator Kerry and his historical references of flip flopping. Look how that turned out.

I hope it won't be the case in 2008 and a 'leader' will appear. I don't, however, expect it.

President Reagan, wasn't consider a leader because he always knew what to do. His leadership was in setting very basic goals, using very basic language to describe them to the people, and sticking to them pragmatically. His 'Teflon President', or 'great communicator' labels were earned because as much as the media tried to interject tangent results to his goals his answers always focused on the big goal, and spoke plainly about it. He knew going in that you can't be all things to all people, but most of the people were behind most of his goals, and most people had the opportunity to improve their lives during his Presidency. All a government should provide is opportunity versus 'nanny service'. President Reagan didn't look helpless and ineffective. Helpless and ineffective described his predecessor.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 9:59:07 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

Leadership.......well, how about being the son of a president, being AWOL most of your military career, so much so your commanding officer begins dishonorable discharge filings against you,  being one of the lowest graduates in your class, being a drunkard, usurpation of the office of president with the aid of your brother, waging an unlawful war, driving a country into the largest dept in history.

THAT, Popeye is what makes a leader.

AS to future leaders......Hillary; maybe, however it does not matter, with all the negative media the Clintons were and are subjected to, she, if she has the ability, will never get to use it. If she regines, she will be destroyed in the media before she even says, I Do. The negative past history will demolish her, the current chaoic economic woes she will inherit well be the final blow.

Then we will have another Leader.......Arnold and Jeb Bush will emerge to save the nation from the debalicle of the Hillary years. Arnold will be mediarized as a heroic success of epic proportions, coming, impoverished, from Austria with nothing but his gym bag, and becoming the greatest american success story of the century.  He should not be penialized for not being a natural born citizen of his dopted homeland, the USofA. The USof A cannot afford, because of some vague words written centuries ago, lose a Leader such as he. The consitution is outdated, and we are living in new and dangerous times, which require bold, aggressive ideas to save this country from the mistakes of the self serving  Hillary era.  Arnold has proven himself capable of leading and bringing this nation to it's former greatness and prosperity we all have enjoyed during the Bush era, when our very security and children were put in harms way by terrorist which have no compassion for life, liberty, peace and the pursuit of the american dream. The wakeup call was given then, with 9-11, and was answered by a Leader who showed he was not afraid of world opinion, would not be cowarded into submission and yeild to terror and the assault on american citizens, but brave enough to go against the fury and fire, of a terrorist threat to our country. That time is here and now, and demands a Leader to take the helm and guide US into the future.

Don't forget about 'Silverado' Neil either.


1st off. no deal on changing teh constitution.
[patriot 1 and 2 bad enuff]

Hillary is one smart cookie.  she "stood by her man"  she can not be underestimated.

bush 1, i had some trust- he isnt a loose cannon.

Neil bush- my gut feeling says he is not  a loose cannon.

Arnold is married to Maria- whom is conected to the Kennedies. So theres a full circel there.

i enjoy ur posts, Sir.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:14:28 AM   
popeye1250


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PaHunk, thanks. I wish "us folks" had more of a say in government too!
Merc, good points.
Yes, it's awful tough to figure out what Senator Aba Daba is all about! He hasn't really "said" anything about the issues.
He strikes me as someone who will say what the people want to hear only. I don't see any "Leadership" there. Very "Pre-Packaged." It's tough to understand why some people are, "very excited" about him. Why? What do they think he's going to do?
Sorry but I see him on the news and I don't get "excited" at all.
Fatboy Ted Kennedy can't even prounounce his name!
"And here's ah, ah, ah,...Senator Bin Laden,...AH,,, Senator Osama,  ah, ah,....Senator Poisidon, ah, ah, ah... Senator Alabama!"
lol!
You know, Hillary Clinton, Senator Aba Daba, McCain, or Guiliani don't "excite" me at all.
And some people will say, "well then who's going to run?"
Well, there 300 million people in this country who are all "qualified."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/16/2007 10:20:41 AM >

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:19:42 AM   
Sinergy


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Excellent post, popeye1250.

I have worked for people that I would (and did) go to extreme lengths to do my best for.  These leaders generally believed in, trusted, relied on, and provided any assistance to the ones following them.

I have worked for people who did none of those things, and while I generally see what I do as a reflection of who I am (I am a diligent worker) I did not give 110%. 

I have been told by people I am teaching, supervising, or leading, that they really enjoy my leadership because I dont play mind games, I say what the hell I want from them, I dont play schoolyard bully or embarassment games, I stand up for them to anybody trying to bypass my leadership, and I take any issues I have with them off-line and away from public places.  More importantly, anybody who has ever been under my supervision knows I will not ask somebody else to do something I am unwilling to do, and will roll up my sleeves and pitch in to make sure things get done.

Sinergy

p.s. I thought your comments about Ronald Reagan were odd.  While he did great photo ops, I cant recall anything he actually did that resulted in a positive outcome for our country.  Until Monkeyboy, he oversaw the largest government expansion, destroying international relations, corporate fraud and wastefulness, etc., of any president before or since.  You can worship at the altar of Reagan, but I think the history of his administration and presidency deserves about a C- in the leadership department. 

On a related note, I give Carter a similar grade because he was way too nice and honorable to do what sometimes needed to be done.  I do think Carter is one of the most profoundly wonderful ex-presidents this country has ever seen.


_____________________________

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:31:54 AM   
popeye1250


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Sinergy, thanks.
I wasn't so much talking about Reagan's "policy" as I was his "Leadership".
I of course dissagreed with some of his "policy."
It's very tough to put your finger on.
I've seen MBA's who were terrible Managers nevermind even saying their names in the same sentence as "Leader."
I think some people just "have" it.
And I think it's an inate quality and it really can't be "taught."

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:32:50 AM   
pahunkboy


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hmm. i liked Reagan, and I like Clinton.

Carter was too honest- and infation a nightmre. 

dont forget- in those yrs- there were checks and balances....unlike 2000-2006.

reagan had a dem congress, clinton had a GOP congress.

what to watch for- pension fund collapses......

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:36:11 AM   
SusanofO


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This isn't a totally politcally-based answer, but, from what I've read, as far as personalities go, on the Myers-Briggs test, the closest thing to a true leader is the ENFJ type, IMO. The kind of person who can get other people to do something they really don't,or may not altogether want to do, simply because they are so charming and appear (or actually are) attuned to peoples' needs and desires, and convicted (or appear to be) in their own beliefs (although sometimes they can tread a fine line there, depends on the situation, IMO). Short description: These folks can sell ice to an Eskimo. 

Also, IMO, a true leader has to be willing to make an unpopular decision once in awhile, if not more often than that, if they think it's the best thing to do. In politics, this can be especially tricky, of course. And of course, after you find someone like that, there's all the stuff Mernbeth said, too, added into the mix...

In order to win an election, get stuff done, and stay in office, a leader has to make a series of decisions, as far as how much it is practical to "sell themselves" (or sell out completely, perhaps) in the process. But IMO, whatever people may have thought of Bill Cinton, he got a lot of actual valuable work done  - and screwed up one or two things too, but politics and legislating are complicated processes.

One leader, IMO, isn't always completely accountable for the outcome. Maybe in a "the buck stops here" and a representative sense, sure, but  - there are lots of other Congress and Senate people involved, too, much of the time.

This might seem obvious, but for a true leader, integrity, and actual sometimes very hard work count for something, plus an ability to us their noggin', and especially to make indepedent decisions on especially weighty matters (even if they do ask others for "advice", they can't let someone else make the end decision). They also need to take responsibilty for their decisions, and sooner, rather than later. 

However, I will caveat this by saying that: People can say they despise compromise, but it's what our legislative system is built on, IMO, it is built right into the whole system, and for some pretty good reasons, too, even though the outcome isn't always palatable to many. 

Anyway, IMO, there is a lot to be said for someone who can say something like "I feel your pain" and make some others believe it (especially if they really can). Plus be savvy enough and be a good enough communicator to know how to deflect critcism, when it counts. Plus all of what I said above. To me, that is what makes people want to follow. Reagan probably had the same quality, he was just in a different political party.

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/16/2007 11:02:25 AM >


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And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:37:38 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I wasn't so much talking about Reagan's "policy" as I was his "Leadership".



So was I.

What did he actually lead?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:46:10 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

pahunkboy: what to watch for- pension fund collapses......


Especially those heavily into mortgage backed securities. Also check your 401k for the same mutual funds. Although at this point, that money is gone anyway.

Those relying on "performance based buy back" provisions for their security will have to deal with the bankruptcy of the guarantor mortgage broker.

pahunk - Back on your old subject of home-ownership. Wait about six months and if you have cash they'll be plenty of "bargains" in the real estate market. The problem will be that any mortgage lending will have very strict underwriting. The Realtors will be running out of "For Sale" signs when all those 'investment property' pyramid schemes blow up in the face of having no 'qualified' buyers. You'll also see an big decrease in the renter pricing, as more properties get put on the market as rentals while the owners try to bunker down to weather the storm. It's a buyers market on both these fronts, but it is by no means bottomed out. 

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:46:40 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

This isn't a politcally-based answer, but, from what I've read, as fas as personalities go, on the Myers-Briggs test, the closest thing to a true leader is the ENFJ type, IMO. The kind of person who can get other people to do something they really don't,or may not altogether want to do, simply because they are so charming and appear (or actually are) attuned to your needs, and convicted in their beliefs (although sometimes they can tread a fine  line there, depends on the situation, IMO) . Also, IMO, they have to be willing to make an unpopular decision once in awhile, if they think it's the best thing to do. In politics, this can be especially tricky, of course. And of course, after you find someone like that, there's all the stuff Mernbeth said, too, added into the mix..

In order to win, a leader in the U.S. has to make a series of decisons as far as how much it is practical to "sell themselves" (or sell out completely, perhaps) in the process. But IMO, whatever people may have thought of Bill Cinton, he got a lot of actual valuable work done  - and screwed up one or two things too, but politics and legislating are complicated processes and one leader, isn't always completely accountable for the outcome, maybe in a "the buck stops here" sense, sure, but there are lots of other Congrss and Senate people involved, too, much of the time.

Anyway, IMO there is a lot to be said for someone who can say something like "I feel your pain" and make some others believe it (especially if they really can). Plus be savvy enough and be a good enough communicator to know how to deflect critcism when it counts. To me, that is what makes people want to follow.

- Susan 


Susan, some good points.
Sorry about Clinton though, he would be the furthest thing away from a "Leader" that I can think of. Bush too!
When I think of either one of those two I think, "Frat Boy!"
If either one of them tried to tell me to do something I'd tell both of them to take a hike. 
A squirrel could crawl up Clinton's pants and starve to death.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 10:58:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Sorry about Clinton though, he would be the furthest thing away from a "Leader" that I can think of. Bush too! 


Popeye,
President Clinton was too much of a poll watcher to be a leader, but his fault with me is he let something ridiculous get in the way of what he could have accomplished. I hate waste most of all. 

President Clinton's Democratic party affiliation enabled him cut more wasted tax dollars going to social programs, and to do more for businesses, especially small businesses, than any Republican could get away doing. I compare it to President Nixon recognizing and going to mainland China. A democrat doing the same would have been labeled a Communist. A Republican doing what President Clinton did for business and in cutting social programs to balance the budget would have been said to be catering to big business and insensitive to the needs of the poor.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 11:12:06 AM   
SusanofO


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popeye: Thank you for the compliment. If anyone here is old enough to remember that movie "The Candidate" (starring Robert Redford, circa 1970) - I think it had a lot to say about the whole political process. You are probably right-a lot of regular folks could probably run for office, if they were willing to put themselves through the process (and had the funds to be a serious contender).

It might take years, IMO, for someone like that to reach the point they were running for higher political office (like President) though, especially if they had no political legacy like you-know-who. And I sometimes have to wonder if what they originally intended would come out looking on the other side like much like it. Maybe some of it would.

Compromise is built into the system, IMO, and the media can screw w/a candidate's or a representative's image, and sometimes that is what people base their entire voting decisions on (vs. gut instinct). I suppose there's really no way around that, though.

But IMO, a voter (or a citizen, or both) has to be willing to (and mostly able to) discern, or try anyway, what is hype (or could be hype), and what really matters, when candidates are being interviewed on tv, etc. Which is all tied up w/where their perceptions and world view come from to begin with (past experiences, how much they read about politics and representatives, and the political process, etc.).

Personally, if it is a candidate I think I might vote for, I will tend to follow what they say, and find out more about them, and their voting record (if they have one), to see if it matches what I think I value more (or less). But I also factor in things like if a way they voted was understandable, perhaps. At the time, for instance, Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq war (which some media folk are attempting to twist into some weird tragedy), so were many, many other legislators.

The fact that Bush didn't really make a considered decision based on verifiable facts, had not come out yet, when she did make that decision, plus, she was a brand new Senator. I am not zoning in on Hillary Clinton for a particular reason, just saying that kind of decision (and there are certainly variations of it in both parties) can get all twisted by the media, and people can fail to think of other factors that maybe were involved in someone's decison (or at least what the possibilities might be), when evaluating someone (I do think she's brainy, perhaps a bit opportunistic, but hey, she is in politics, that is the ball-game.)

Can she make a "tough decision"? I dunno, she's still married to Bill, isn't she? That may have been a tough decision, in many ways, IMO lol.  

There are many who never pick up a newspaper in the U.S. (and I am not referring to you or anyone here, obviously you do, or you wouldn't probably be even interested in starting a thread like this). Some even completely fail to vote. When I hear someone bitching nowdays about "the state of things", one of the first things I ask them is: Did you vote? If the answer is "No", I mostly now turn a deaf ear.

I know you probably voted, just saying I have noticed this trend. People like to discuss politics, and I do sometimes wish more had the funds to run, and be a serious contender - it would be interesting to see what might happen. I am a registered Independent. I just want to be able to vote for who I think is best, and the process is, at times, kind of interesting to follow, IMO.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/16/2007 11:51:58 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 11:19:39 AM   
bludemonn


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hi folks, my view on this good subject is plain really, a true Leader will not ask anything of his/her colleagues he or she cannot do themselves, its about respect given and recieved, Leadership isnt just about having foresight but of understanding what it takes to carry out their requests.

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RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 11:26:54 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

hi folks, my view on this good subject is plain really, a true Leader will not ask anything of his/her colleagues he or she cannot do themselves, its about respect given and recieved, Leadership isnt just about having foresight but of understanding what it takes to carry out their requests.


So, could it also be said that ; "A true Leader doesn't throw heavy glass ashtrays at her husband?"
Or, "A true Leader doesn't take revenge at secret service agents for exposing hijinks in the White House travel office by having them transferred to Alaska?"
I mean would a true "Leader" do things like that?

(in reply to bludemonn)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What is "Leadership?" - 3/16/2007 11:44:46 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
If they were also a human being, IMO, and wanted to stay viable in the political world, they might. Not saying it is "right" or "wrong". Folks in both parties do this kind of stuff. I'm saying I can understand it to a degree, in that can be human, and I can see some practical value. 

Frankly, I am pretty sure I'd never run for office. Too much of a "fish-bowl" for me. I think those folks sacrifice a lot, in terms of privacy, and maybe it is an exchange for public power, and also some of them, IMO, really do want to do some good for folks. Maybe some just want raw power w/no concern for good ends. I can't tell which sometimes, and a voter, IMO, can sometimes be fooled, as far as that kind of thing goes.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/16/2007 12:08:35 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 20
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