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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 1:16:57 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

The picture is irrelevant.  She is a woman in a car, in what looks to be a vacation photo.. she is not inappropriately dressed, she has not exposed her self in an overtly sexual manner... she is not representing herself in anyway as a ditzie blond, she is sitting in a freaking car with sunglasses on..  but that is not the point.

If a male CIA officer were beamed around the media in a similar picture, he would not be called dizzy or bimbo or what have you.  He would be a cool, James Bondian, hot guy CIA dude.

I do not think many people see the very strong biases both in the many posts to these forums and in the media in general about this woman.

I bet you ten bucks if it were an outed male CIA operative, there would be much more outrage at what happened.


Hell YA!  if it were a male- more noise would be made indeed!!!

a male in a red convertable looks sleek- cool- happenming.

in todays world- woman, still don't quite have equality. i am not condoning this- simply stating- the world has a double standard- when it comes to male female in roles of power.

michigan lost the equal rights amendment....... which I never understood why it hasnt been brought back.

males rule the world.  im simply stating the world as i view it. i am not agreeing that this is my dream of utopia.

i have worked for both male and female bosses- each had their + s and - s..........

i am for equal right for woman.

(in reply to puella)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 1:20:34 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You can't be pardoned until you're convicted.



farglebargle:
Nope...remember Ford pardoned Nixon for anything he did or may have done.
thompson

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 3:25:50 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Meanwhile, in reality, the less biased news outlets said that it was "political theatre" in which very little was learned.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070316/ap_on_go_co/cia_leak_congress_29

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 3:28:17 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		This is a direct quote:

“In the run-up to the war with Iraq, I worked in the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA, still as a covert officer whose affiliation with the CIA was classified,” Plame sad in her opening testimony.

So, I don't know how much "Theater" it was, vs. proving everyone who claimed she WAS NOT a covert officer completely wrong.

If seeing all those loudmouths shutup with facts is considered theater, than perhaps it is.

The title of that story: "Plame sheds little light in leak case" shows how little the writer knows.

How could she shed light into the case where her secret identity as a CIA officer was blown?

But she was a CIA Officer, and her affiliation was classified. That's two things we didn't know as factually true before her testimony.

Does this count for the "New Information" Fitzgerald was referring to in interviews?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/16/2007 3:30:59 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 3:43:08 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Try again, farglebargle. According to todays' testimony, the term "covert" as used by Plame was merely a legal term used to describe anyone recently returning from overseas. 

Everyone who was anyone in Washington already knew that she worked as a desk jockey there.

quote:

Plame repeatedly described herself as a covert operative, a term that has multiple meanings. Plame said she worked undercover and traveled abroad on secret missions for the CIA.
But the word "covert" also has a legal definition requiring recent foreign service by the person and active efforts to keep his or her identity secret. Critics of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation said Plame did not meet that definition for several reasons and that was why nobody was charged with the leak.
"No process can be adopted to protect classified information that no one knows is classified. This looks to me more like a CIA problem than a White House problem," Davis said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070316/ap_on_go_co/cia_leak_congress_29

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 4:04:16 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Try again, farglebargle. According to todays' testimony, the term "covert" as used by Plame was merely a legal term used to describe anyone recently returning from overseas. 
I was under the impression that the legal aspects of this were what we were discussing.  So if it is a legal term then it follows that it is what we are talking about.

Everyone who was anyone in Washington already knew that she worked as a desk jockey there.
Oh my...we have someone in our midst who knows everyone who was anyone in Washington.  Is that really true Sanity or you just having a little fun with us?

quote:

Plame repeatedly described herself as a covert operative, a term that has multiple meanings. Plame said she worked undercover and traveled abroad on secret missions for the CIA.
But the word "covert" also has a legal definition requiring recent foreign service by the person
Did'nt she testify that she had just done that?


and active efforts to keep his or her identity secret.
Isn't that what Libby was just convicted of lying about.


Critics of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's investigation said Plame did not meet that definition for several reasons and that was why nobody was charged with the leak.
Did'nt bush & co say they would prosecute anyone form the whitehouse who was found guilty of this.....this sounds a lot like double speak gobbledegook.


"No process can be adopted to protect classified information that no one knows is classified.
If something is classified information then someone must have classified it...thus it would seem that at least the classifying authority would know of it.


This looks to me more like a CIA problem than a White House problem," Davis said.

So it would appear that those who disagree with the special prosecutor are the ones who can decide what the special prosecutor may and may not prosecute... as they used to say on Laugh IN " verrrrry interesting..... BUT dumb."
thompson
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070316/ap_on_go_co/cia_leak_congress_29


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/16/2007 4:07:28 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 4:23:05 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Everyone who was anyone in Washington already knew that she worked as a desk jockey there.


Hmmm, I wonder why the CIA would request an investigation into the release of the identity of a "desk jokey". 

My favorite moment was Westmoreland's very McCarthyesque "Are you a democrat" question.  Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Democratic party? 


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Krys

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 6:59:12 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

Hmmm, I wonder why the CIA would request an investigation into the release of the identity of a "desk jokey". 

My favorite moment was Westmoreland's very McCarthyesque "Are you a democrat" question.  Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Democratic party? 


And she had to admit that they are Democrats - with the very strong suggestion being, this is all political theatre.

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 7:03:50 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		I was working while the dog and pony show was taking place, so it's nice to see coverage like the following:

quote:

Plame's fellow Democrats, led by committee Chairman Henry Waxman (news, bio, voting record) of California, spent much of their time waving at the cameras a new version of the Clinton administration's "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" flowchart. The chart featured a big, black box labeled "UNKNOWN," representing the mysterious personage who told Karl Rove and Vice President Dick Cheney about Plame.
Gee, the republic must be in mortal danger if someone is giving CIA secrets to the vice president and a senior presidential adviser.
Plame repeatedly answered questions about her official status at the CIA with an unconvincing "I'm not a lawyer."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ibd/20070316/bs_ibd_ibd/2007316issues

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 7:05:51 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Exactly how does being registered to vote for the Democratic party imply that her loyalty wasn't to the Constitution, and her duties as a classified officer at the CIA?

Think of the CIA like Fight Club.

What's the first rule of Fight Club?

What's the SECOND rule of Flight Club?



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/16/2007 7:06:50 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 7:44:15 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Valerie Plame dropped her kids off at school and drove to work (CIA) everyday. She was not some kind of secret agent. Even her neighbors new what she did for a living. If this means "covert". I'm a covert Phone man...

(in reply to farglebargle)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 7:47:25 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, you are completely wrong.

As I pointed out in an earlier thread on this subject, Federal Prosecutor Fitzgerald, in an official statement, debunked that prescious piece of fallacy.  His investigations proved that her friends and neighbors outside of the CIA had no idea what she did.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_875272/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm

post 21

< Message edited by puella -- 3/16/2007 7:51:28 PM >

_____________________________

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"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 8:05:25 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		If you have a problem with her testimony under oath, take it to a USA. I understand they like to prosecute Perjury.

If you have a problem with the Covert Agent Law, then consider that her status was CLASSIFIED, and therefore covered under executive order 12958 anyway.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 8:17:40 PM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Yes, yes, yes. Technicalities are fine for prosecuting REPUBLICANS, mind you. But heaven forbid, if a Democrat is lying to a grand jury about oh, say, a sexual harassment lawsuit, then THAT is completely different, you see.

COMPLETELY different.

Not that I'm a partisan or anything, I'm just making a non-emotional judgment based on the facts here.

No, no, no - not partisan at all. HEAVENS no.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you have a problem with her testimony under oath, take it to a USA. I understand they like to prosecute Perjury.

If you have a problem with the Covert Agent Law, then consider that her status was CLASSIFIED, and therefore covered under executive order 12958 anyway.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 8:20:18 PM   
puella


Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton, Sanity.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/16/2007 8:29:18 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Yes, yes, yes. Technicalities are fine for prosecuting REPUBLICANS, mind you. But heaven forbid, if a Democrat is lying to a grand jury about oh, say, a sexual harassment lawsuit, then THAT is completely different, you see.

COMPLETELY different.

Not that I'm a partisan or anything, I'm just making a non-emotional judgment based on the facts here.

No, no, no - not partisan at all. HEAVENS no.


The law is the law. If you get nailed, the law should run it's course. Clinton Jones? ( He was a football player )

Jones v. Clinton? IIRC, there was a three week impeachment trial on that perjury charge.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sanity)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/17/2007 1:10:27 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton, Sanity.


You could demand I reveal classified information all day long and I would simply refer you to the authorizing authority for said information.

I took an oath.  I have a copy of the form I signed.  You dont like it, not my problem.

I wont lie, I would do what Valerie Plame did and indicate that it was CLASSIFIED and I/she are not at liberty to discuss it with ANYBODY not cleared to discuss it with.

Valerie Plame did not lie, Sanity, no matter how much you want to believe this is true.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to puella)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/17/2007 1:13:45 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton, Sanity.


On a further note, my oath was to the authorizing authority who provided me with the classified information.

I would not be at liberty to reveal it to Congress.

If they wanted to go into closed session, and I had a representative from the authorizing authority, and it was secure, and I had permission, sure I would talk about it.

I am not going to blather on about it when uncleared TV cameras are recording it for C-Span when some corpulent congressional slug is saying I should spill my guts about what I know.

I would suggest, Sanity, that you educate yourself on the applicable laws dealing with disclosure of classified information.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to puella)
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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/17/2007 3:15:29 AM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
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Status: offline 		She'll have a $5,000,000.00 offer from Hefner before May.

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RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. - 3/17/2007 3:54:05 AM   
krys


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Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And she had to admit that they are Democrats - with the very strong suggestion being, this is all political theatre.


The strong suggestion I took was Westmoreland IS as much an idiot as he appeared to be on his Colbert appearance.  The question had absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, and was simply a bit of Rep spin, call it political theatre if you like, to say "Look, see, we are only here 'cause they are Dems!".  And hey, people not paying enough attention may just take the bait.  But they are there because when the President lied in his State of the Union address claiming there was evidence of the purchase of uranium from Africa to ratchet up the fear mongering a notch to justify a war we should not be in, Wilson called him on it in an OpEd piece.  Their reactive smear attempts against Wilson included tossing a monkey wrench into the CIA's operations and the CIA called them on it as a result.  Then we have the fall guy Libby scrambling to cover it up, which he got convicted for.  The blossom is off the Turd Blossom, Rove went too far. 

The Pres didn't just lie to us liberals in his State of the Union address.  That was directed to the WHOLE Union.  Which means you were lied to as well. About something a hell of a lot more important than a blowjob.


_____________________________

Krys

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