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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 8:42:14 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


The funny thing was, young Patches was in a car accident two weeks prior to that in either R.I. or Conn. I forget which.
No mention of sleeping pills in that one but there was "an odor of alchohol" like in the Washington accident.
You don't go to rehab for "sleeping pills".
Could the Boy Congressman possibly have gotten "a bad ice cube?"


He was also in rehab a month or two before the Ambien incident for Oxycontin addiction. He acknowledged it on some AM TV show yesterday. Also long history of alcohol rehab. Cocaine issues when he was younger.

So here's what never made sense to me.... IF he simply had a " bad reaction" to Ambien, why the need for rehab? I have had bad reactions to meds, I just didn't take them anymore, notified my MD of the sensitivity  for my record and moved along. Way back when Dalmane was the routine sleeping pill given before surgery, they gave it to me the night before foot surgery, I hallucinated my ass off and didn't sleep at all. No rehab for me.

Like someone else inferred: Ambien will be the new excuse for criminal/bad/unacceptable behavior. And the sad part is, Ambien has never been approved for long term use. It has always clearly been for short term use only. It's right there on the label warning when you pickup your script. Sooo, not only is the drug the culprit in a homocide/DUI/ Domestic Abuse etc, the irresponsible MD is at fault also. Certainly not the individual who actuallly  did it.

                                                             mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 8:46:59 AM   
Celeste43


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I haven't followed the story in detail. But I did read that he was on both Phenergan and Ambien. And I've been prescribed Phenergan occasionally over the past 40 years as a cough suppressant. Sometimes with codeine and sometimes without. I don't know of any other use for it except in the treatment of coughs.


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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 9:12:38 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Patrick Kennedy was on a drug that is a heavy duty cough suppressant as well as the Ambien. I'm assuming he had been ill with bronchitis or such and couldn't sleep due to the coughing. Apparently the Phenergan and the Ambien together did this and he wasn't warned by either his doctor or his pharmacist of drug interactions.




That is the story they sold us. You can look at 100 different pharmacuetical sites and you will not find a warning that Phenergan and Ambien cannot be used together. You will find a warning to tell your MD if you are taking certain medications, but nothing saying they cannot be combined. You will find in each one of those cases that they can produce sedation and a plethera of warnings about operating a car or heavy machinery, etc. And I betcha a little label was on Patch's script botle indicating that. And I betcha they weren't prescribed the same day. Just a hunch, but I would guess Patches was on Ambien prior to getting his runny nose and didn't remind the MD or went to a different MD.

Ohh, I know immediately after a whole bunch of experts have said this is a no no combo, but up until then and even now, you won't find any drug interaction warnings about these two specifically.

Phenergan is an antihistamine and aslo is used as a potentiater. It is purposely given to lenghten the duration of the effect of another drug.

https://online.epocrates.com/front_porch/
https://online.epocrates.com/u/10a1110?src=PK

                      

I personally think Ambien is a dangerous drug, always have. Has a very high addiction rate, many side effects and only works for short periods of time. I DO blame MDs for prescribing this for long term use, since it is clearly documented that it is not intended to be so. But even at that, the reason it shouldn't be prescribed for long term use is that it becomes ineffective after a short time. Not because it induces life threatening/dangerous conditions. And since Patchs * admitted* to an Ambien addiction, that would mean he was not taking it as prescribed but abusing it. Kinda like a percocet addict would not be taking one tablet every 4 hours. Addicts have a tendancy to abuse the drug of choice, not use it as indicated.

                                        mbmbn

edited to add:

quote:

 Celeste: I don't know of any other use for it except in the treatment of coughs.



other approved uses include:
treatment of motion sickness, nausea and vomiting, sedation,  commonly used in obstetrics during labor for light sedative effect, allergic reactions to blood/plasma transfusions, conjunctive drug for anaphalaxis.

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 3/17/2007 9:20:04 AM >


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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 9:51:19 AM   
maybemaybenot


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The FDA has requested a label change on ALL sleeping meds:

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2007/NEW01587.html

Ambien related sleepdriving/ sleep eating/sleep phone calling " rare ":

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/20070315_FDA_warns_of_rare__odd_reactions_to_sleep_drugs.html

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 10:14:24 AM   
KatyLied


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Mbmbn - what is your opinion, being in the medical field about this......I've always felt that family docs have no business prescribing certain medications, and that some conditions/medications are best left to doctors more specialized (psychiatrists).  When did family docs get in the business of prescribing sleeping pills and antidepressants?  I find it alarming and I think a lot of these meds are hugely overprescribed (such as ambien).  When my um was having difficulty with insomnia (along with other issues), I didn't hesitate to ask for a referral to a psychiatrist.  If he was going to be taking certain medications, I wanted someone prescribing them who had a lot of experience with this stuff and who knew what was age appropriate. 


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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 11:33:03 AM   
maybemaybenot


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Complex question, Katy.

Family MDs have always prescribed sleepers.I really don't have an issue with them prescribing sleepers in most cases. I think that the average person does not realize that MDs do not get a very extensive education in pharmacology. Many do take course after they acquire their MD, but extensive pharmacuetical training is not in the ciriculum < sp>.  I was amazed in the prev article to read that 57 million prescriptions were written for Ambien last year. That doesn't include the other hypnotics. Are that many people really suffering from  insomnia? If so, it is of epidemic preportions and  we need to have fund raisers, new research and a movement for the insomniacs.

My * opinion* is that we as a society have become pill seeking. More bluntly: Lazy. if we are experiencing something uncomfy.... gimme a pill. Can you imagine if some one went to the MD and said, ya know Doc, I can't sleep can you give me something? and the MD responded: I will give you a two week supply and I want you to go to a sleep disorder MD/clinic/program/rehab. I betcha 90% of the folks would say: Nope, can't do it, I'm too busy, don't have time, I just need something to sleep. There are people like you, but in my own experience, those are the rare ones.

As for antidepressants and similar categories, I agree completely. I think one should have, at minimum, a consult with a Psych. and regular monitoring, before any of those meds are given out. I also think there is a widespread belief that an anti depressant will " fix" your problems. People want to take the pill and make it all better. Much harder to actually find the root cause of the depression/mental issue and commit to working with a specialist to correct the root problem and re learn behaviors to promote well being.

The above are only my opinions, and I mean no offense to those battling mental issues. I know I was flip about the sleepers, but those numbers tell me that there is a whole lot of legalized drug abuse with hypnotics.
So those who really have sleep issues, please don't think I don't have compassion, I do. But there is another side of the coin that is a bigget problem, IMO.

HMO's and insurances have changed the way a MD can practice medicine. There has been more pressure put on the internist/family MD to be a jack of all trades. It's a whole nother topic, but let me give you a personal example:
I have a rare kidney disorder. When I first recognized that there was * something * wrong with me, I went to my MD, who is an excellent diagnostician,btw. I underwent two weeks of testing to determine if it was heart, kidney or liver giving me problems. Kidney was isolated. OK, wouldn't you think I should have been sent to a kidney specialist then? Of course, but that isn't how my HMO at the time worked. I spent another month or so undergoing tests  to isolate what kidney disease I had. Once it was determined that I had a disease in a very broad category of kidney disorders I was sent to a Kidney specialist for a consult. He reviewed my tests, did a history and physical, and explained what diseases I might have. Biopsy of the kidney was needed so that was scheduled. All tolled, from my going to an MD to diagnosis was two months because of the restrictions of the HMO. I am not saying I was dying or anythig like that, but I was ill and treament was elayed two months and the disease progressd another two months before I could even get the treatment I needed. I have been in remission for 5 years now and all my kidney function and routine kidney tests are monitored and ordered by my Primary Care MD, not my kidney MD. Unless there is a problem I can only see him twice a year, per my HMO. Personally I am OK with my Primary MD monitoring me, I know he is a crackerjack MD, and I am a nurse so I am on top of it too. But in all reality, shouldn't a specialist be monitoring my condition, given that it is rare and not much research or info is available?
What is in the best interest of the patient is not always in the best interest of the HMO, and the HMO wins most times.
This wasn't my MDs fault, it was my HMO's fault. It restricted him from sending me to the specialist he wanted to. Now don't get me wrong and not trying to scare anyone. My illness was not life threatening and if I had gone in with a lump on my breast or bleeding rectally, I would have been sent to a surgeon immed.
But in life, most medical issues are not life threatening and the HMO's know that and for alleged cost containment reasons they are not very generous about sending people to the appropriate specialist.

As for HMO's and mental health, they stink. Most HMO's allow only a few visits to a specialist a period and hospitalization under very strict guidelines. So what happens is it is left in the lap of the family Doc.
There are some very good HMO's out there, but the average workign person has one that is not optimal for whole person health.

Again.. my opinions, my experiences... not to be taken as gospel truth.

                                          mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 11:54:17 AM   
KatyLied


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I guess the best lesson and one I've always heeded is that the patient needs to be educated and prepared to advocate on his (or her) own behalf. 



_____________________________

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RE: Ambien sleepwalkers???? !!! - 3/17/2007 3:05:08 PM   
BeingChewsie


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I'm a psych nurse. I work on a medical detox unit. We detox people from ambien, medically managed detox. I think it is bad stuff over the long term, taking it for 3 days or so OK but over the long term, highly addictive.

I think docs are overprescribing benzos..like ambien, xanax, klonopin, etc. I can't tell you how many women we detox off this crap...some of them over and over and over...they just can't kick the stuff. They got it from the family doc..for anxiety, or inability to sleep, stressful time..and now they are hooked..and it is tearing their lives and families apart. Some people really need it and needd to stay on it, but so many could of been prescribed something else.

I haven't seen people sleep walk on ambien, we have had patients who were not abusing it stay on it while detoxing from other stuff but I have no doubt it happens, especially when combined with alcohol or other meds.

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