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RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 8:43:55 AM

puella

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[

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Why wouldn't someone respect her [Cindy Sheehan]?

Because she's as fake as a three dollar bill, and a pawn for groups like Moveon & DemocracyNow.

She lost her son to this war, subrob. What have you had to sacrafice?

< Message edited by puella -- 3/18/2007 8:45:03 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 41

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 8:51:01 AM

SimplyMichael

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Caitlyn,

There were many reasoned voices arguing against this war. We just finished having a trial about one of them. This administration punished him by outing his wife. Now you can quible about how "out" his wife was but the goal was to punish Wilson.

General Zinne, Army Chief of Staff and a combat veteran testified before Senate Republicans that we would need hundreds of thousands of troops and Republicans ignored him in favor of flippant remarks by Wolfowitz, a man who never served let alone faced combat or led men into battle.

Sane, calm, level headed people all over DC got their asses handed to them for daring to speak out calmly about the comming idiocy that Bush would plunge us into and that the Republicans would be deeply inplicit in.

I think that long before you whine and snivel that MY side isn't being suitably moderate, you might want to do the work of dealing with the probably treasonous actions of your side. Till then the craziest most shrill leftie sounds more sane to me than your average calm level headed Republican who voted for people who borrow and squander, who lie about intel to get us into a war they then proceded to poorly plan, poorly lead, and poorly execute.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 42

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 8:56:58 AM

puella

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As I wade through the first page of responses, I think I will probably just add this, finally, and not participate in this thread (not that it is because of your posting, FirmhandKY). By the end of page one, it has turned into a disgusting display of illogical, reactionary bashing.

What I will say, is that I think it is very good that both sides were represented. I have often protested, for various issues, and have always found that the best part of the day was to be had in exchanging ideas with those who have a contrasting point of view. I have often taken away ideas to think about and a better understanding of the opposing perspective, good and bad.

I also think that it is probably a pretty accurate representation of where our nation stands on this issue, numbers wise, as well, perhaps, as the motivating factors underlying their positions.

The vast majority of this country (and the 10's of thousands anti-war protesters in this country [btw, there were global protests held and those numbers are astronomical]) are opposed to this occupation. There is a minority of people (the highest tally I found was about 3,000) who support the occupation.

The vitriol in the pro-occupation protesters is not at all uncommon or something which can not be understood. Many think that if you oppose the occupation, you hate/do not support the troops. This of course is crude and rather reactionary 'logic', but not something unfathomable, as emotions can often override logic when people you love are involved. I know it has been a struggle for my family and me to not succumb to emotion and to continue forcing ourselves to look at fact vs fancy regarding my brother and 4 cousins who are in this violent conflict.

I do not find anything at all shocking about this article.

< Message edited by puella -- 3/18/2007 8:58:07 AM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 43

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:00:05 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Pretty pathetic response. Saddam and his regime are gone. What we have now are insurgents that wouldn't be a problem if the invasion hadn't taken place.

Yep, I figured it would be our fault.

Hey, when all else fails, call someone else's opinion, pathetic.

I don't just blame America, I blame Britain too for being a diplomatic fig leaf, that fig leaf was damn important even though a little pathetic.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 44

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:22:13 AM

Sanity

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Contrary to your stated opinion, the majority didn't show up to protest, they stayed home. Out of all the millions of people on the planet, and out of the tens of millions in whatever given city, only a percent of a percent showed up at all. Mere thousands.

How many people show up to vote? Not many. You have people on the Right who care, people on the Left who care, but the vast majority in the middle is watching "Wheel Of Fortune" or whatever. And out of those do who show up to vote, we're almost perfectly split 50/50.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella
The vast majority of this country (and the 10's of thousands anti-war protesters in this country [btw, there were global protests held and those numbers are astronomical]) are opposed to this occupation. There is a minority of people (the highest tally I found was about 3,000) who support the occupation.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/18/2007 9:23:22 AM >

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 45

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:25:38 AM

puella

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Oh Sanity.. read my post again. I never said that the majority of the country came out to protest. I said the protesters numbers, for and against, are pretty representative of how our nation breaks down on the issue (in terms of numbers for and against). Statistically speaking there are a far greater amount of our citizens against the current occupation than are for it, that also was representative in the protests this weekend in the US.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 46

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:31:07 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
There were many reasoned voices arguing against this war.

I completely agree with you Michael.

The problem I see, is that we are now looking at these things after he fact, so it's pretty easy to see who is reasonsed, and who isn't. Perhaps I'm not experienced, educated or have enough political savvy to to see things before the fact, but my honest opinion is that we have so much screaming and posturing, that the average person can't tell what's real and what's bullshit.

Look at my buddy meatcleaver ... he talkes about Mr. Blix now, like the man didn't change his mind a half dozen times when things were actually happening.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 47

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:46:59 AM

untamedshysub

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okay the war is here for five years now we are paying over 3 bucks a gallon for gas in parts of the country and close to it in others. Lets stick to facts, where is the money going to come from ? it has to come from somewhere, and who ever gets elected next year will have to deal with it .does not matter which party there are a lot of things that are broken: cost of housing, health care, national debt, cost of gas, and the war.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 48

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 9:50:45 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Look at my buddy meatcleaver ... he talkes about Mr. Blix now, like the man didn't change his mind a half dozen times when things were actually happening.

Caitlyn. When the US invaded Afghanistan there was not one desenting voice amongst US alies. With Iraq, there was NOT ONE consenting voice amongst US allies or at least one, Blair's but the vast majority of Britain was not behind him. In fact his stand caused the biggest demonstrations in Britain's history. As someone pointed out what McNamara said on the 'Ghost's Of Vietnam' thread, if your allies aren't with you, perhaps one should stop and think.

Those facts alone should tell you something.

Blix didn't change his mind half a dozen times. What the politicians said he said, changed half a dozen times. If you really don't know when you are being spun a line, it is really too soon to go out in the big bad world.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 49

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 10:45:41 AM

MasDom

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Disconnect, and look at it all over again.

I say lets calm down and just look at cause and effect.
Millions will die any ways.
Thats a casualty in life from the begining...
       However you can support change.
Change allows for the causes
   of certain deaths to be avoided.

War on terror --War on people who support the reasons for needless violence.

In a way we do fight for that cause.
But then again were doing it all wrong.
        I suppose just turning off their radio's
and televisions may cut out some of the things that get them all worked up.

But god forbid we do something wise like that.
No lets just through another hundred thousand soldiers at them.
I,m sure after the English,Russians and who ever tried to break their backs, We as the great crumbling nation of America can stop bitching long enough to be the first...

Certainly through the gas issues we don't need to deal with any more, And the human crisis of these coming storms.
Some how in gods name were going to win.
Win using the blood and muscle of great men who one day wont be remembered say for an etching in stone...

And as we look back upon the millions with false limbs made of spatula's I,m sure they'll easily get by in life and be proud of what they accomplished as a whole...

So what if the communists are gaining up on us.
And were looking like the scum of the earth.
Isn't it fun....

Look I say we just calm down.
Find a compromise like adding
   black opps and media control.
Not like we don't do it to ourselves already...
So it must be democratic...

Use our minds as we use the Braun.
Find more peacefully or ingenious ways.
Like actually having a decent battle plan in the first place.
   Cutting off importations of arms to the enemy.
Assassinate funders for terror.
You know the good ole cold war try...

Least then in the end I,d still say i,m proud of the army.
But even better
I could say i,m finally proud of our government again...

So what if Vietnam vets got pissed.
Its their rite.
And so what if protesters were protesting period.
Thats democracy...
   No voting ever changed shit...

Womans lib... protesting.
African equality.... protesting.
Safe sex and the use of condoms...protesting..

Now I,m not saying the war is bad.
But stifling any words,
even the hurtful words I spoke above.
Thats just not American.

In real life its not all cut and dry.
Neither is this democracy or society.
Peoples views waver and change.
And thats why I love to be in this country...

Its because no one has the rite to
tell me how to act or think.

I have a question...
Why even bicker over the people bickering?....
       Its not like much is acomplished...
I,ll tell you why...
   Because its just us as a whole figuring out how we really feel about things.

A war going on this long just isn't working.
Doesn't make it wrong and doesn't make it rite.
Just means we need to rethink things...

Sorry i,m just meaninglessly ranting again.

I just feel we take to much time to make other peoples words trivial..
But isn't that really the problem we have facing us.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 50

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 10:59:06 AM

Vendaval

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Link to "Iraq gas attack makes hundreds ill"
and other news about the dead and wounded
over the weekend.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- "Bombers detonated three chlorine-filled trucks
in Anbar province, the U.S. military said Saturday.

The attacks killed two police officers and sickened about 350 Iraqis
and six coalition force members, the military said."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/03/17/iraq.main/index.html

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(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 51

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 11:43:20 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Caitlyn. When the US invaded Afghanistan there was not one desenting voice amongst US alies. With Iraq, there was NOT ONE consenting voice amongst US allies or at least one, Blair's but the vast majority of Britain was not behind him.

Flatly untrue meatcleaver. Italy, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, Australia, and The Netherlands, both voted for the resolutin and sent more than 1,000 troops in 2004.

Now, before you say that American pressure forced them to do it ... keep in mind that when Spain backed out and removed their 1,500 troops, we thanked them for their contribution and wished them well.

To be honest, if what I see of these discussions is the "real world," then I don't want to be ready for it. The anti-war factions are just as full of bullshit distortions as the pro-war factions, in my view.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 52

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 12:30:14 PM

SimplyMichael

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Caitlyn,

Get real, Poland? Ukraine? You count Spain with its 1,500 troop "committment as an ally?

To me, when I speak of allies in this sort of context I am refering to people willing to make a major commitment of blood and treasure and less than 1% of the troops and none of the money ain't much of a commitment.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 53

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 12:37:00 PM

caitlyn

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I was responding to meatcleaver's assertion that there was not one consenting voice, other than the UK ... and made no assumptions about the level of committment.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 54

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 12:49:03 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Caitlyn. When the US invaded Afghanistan there was not one desenting voice amongst US alies. With Iraq, there was NOT ONE consenting voice amongst US allies or at least one, Blair's but the vast majority of Britain was not behind him.

Flatly untrue meatcleaver. Italy, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, Australia, and The Netherlands, both voted for the resolutin and sent more than 1,000 troops in 2004.

Now, before you say that American pressure forced them to do it ... keep in mind that when Spain backed out and removed their 1,500 troops, we thanked them for their contribution and wished them well.

To be honest, if what I see of these discussions is the "real world," then I don't want to be ready for it. The anti-war factions are just as full of bullshit distortions as the pro-war factions, in my view.

Why do you think everyone sent so few troops? Because they really believed in the cause? Politics, pure and simple and nothing to do with any belief in Saddam was dangerous. When the Dutch Prime Minister said he was sending troops he was about as enthusiastic as eating excrement, the Dutch public were totally against it so it wasn't for domestic reasons he sent a token force. Again, I don't know what pressure was applied if any but I do know that a lot of political arm twisting and blackmailing was going on to get agreement to send a force. The response was completely the opposite to Afghanistan when European governments could have sent their whole military with brass bands too and not have any criticism from their public.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/18/2007 12:53:21 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 55

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 12:54:30 PM

puella

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I was living in Europe at the time, and Berlusconi had serious serious problems with sending troops to Iraq. It was not at all the will of his people and the riots and protests were long, and loud, and was ultimately, one of the greatest factors in his being unseated in the government. Protests began before the war, continued through the war and still go on today... there were huge demonstrations in Italy this past weekend against the occupation.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 56

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 1:07:06 PM

caitlyn

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That's fine all three ... but you are changing the dynamic now, saying they didn't send many, and weren't sending them willingly.

The original statement was:

quote:

When the US invaded Afghanistan there was not one desenting voice amongst US alies. With Iraq, there was NOT ONE consenting voice amongst US allies or at least one, Blair's but the vast majority of Britain was not behind him.

That statement is untrue ... period! Changing the dynamic, doesn't make it true.

Expecting people to understand and accept your position, when you say things that are not true, is not realistic. Even less realistic is to expect people to understand and accept your position, when you attempt to spin and deflect, when you say something that isn't true.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 3/18/2007 1:08:52 PM >

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 57

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 1:11:55 PM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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THE money will come from cutting back foreign aid and unbalanced tax cuts..900 dollar hammers and 85 dollar bolts ..just cutting 5 % of the fat and fraud will balanced the books..bounty

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Post #: 58

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 1:15:26 PM

puella

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Where is NortherGent?

It is true caitlyn. I was also at the million man march in London before the war... There are a lot of really great programs on BBC, one of them is QuestionTime. The audience members, not screened, get to ask question of a panel of guests (There is is usually one major player from each of the three political parties, a comedian, and an academic or two). Watching Question Time for the year before and after the initial invading, coupled with some shows Tony Blair voluntarily did himself where citizens could question him and engage in something of a debate... it was brutal. The majority of the people in the UK were not for the invasion of Iraq. Tony Blair went against the will of the people, and even many of his own party. I will do a bit of a search for some of the more pertient events I can remember off the top of my head and post them to you.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/14/bush.britain.reut/index.html

< Message edited by puella -- 3/18/2007 1:17:23 PM >

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 59

RE: Report on the Anti-War Protest this weekend ... - 3/18/2007 1:21:38 PM

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