RE: "Praise the Lord!"

RE: "Praise the Lord!" (Full Version)

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StellaByStarlite -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:11:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I do not believe that we are central to the great universal scheme of things. You do not know what I believe in, but I do know what you believe in after reading you over and over on this subject. I have no evidence of many things MC, and yet I live each day as happily as I can. It does not trouble me that people believe in ways that I do not and that they have faith. Many scientists will hide evidence, delude themselves, refuse to accept new evidence to hold on to their beliefs, I see this as even worse than religious people. At least religious people do not cloak themselves in almighty science and then proceed to subvert it. Science also causes more problems than it has been able to fix when it comes to using the scientific method to develop new technologies. In some ways we are better off, in others we are about ready to wreck our planet. Science is not the end all be all of human existence. Scientists are just as prone to flaws as anybody else. But scientific method in general has a self-correcting system. Debate is actively encouraged, and being wrong is just a reason to move onto something else. No, it's not perfect, and nobody has said it was, but as a means of learning about our world, it's the best method we have, really. I fail to see your point about how religious people cloak themselves... ever hear of Creation Science? or how about plain old religious hypocrisy? Cloaking and subverted aren't limited to science alone. I don't believe anybody has stated that science is the be all end all of human existence. But given a choice, I'd trust science to deliver the goods. There are things that most people feel inside of them that you are completely dismissive of, now you may not care to understand this, and you may never understand feeling connected to something bigger than yourself, that is perfectly ok with me. I will take my spirituality over your logic any day of the week. I used to live in that logic and dismissed my spirit for academic reasons. I know what that reality is like, and I do not want it. I was very unhappy, because I was not honoring my spirit, soul, the core of who I am, because I thought I had to be uber logical all the time... no one is uber logical all the time, and those who think that they are... well they are lying to themselves. Those are some pretty patronizing statements to make. It's ironic that this whole thing started because you assumed I was trying to come across as "superior". I realize this may not be directed at me personally, but "you may never understand feeling connected to something bigger then you yourself" strikes me as more then a bit passive-aggressive and self-righteous. How do you know? I define my family and society as bigger then myself. Strong ties there. Your statement puts a rather narrow slant on connections and how we perceive the world. I am not going to launch into some teleologic debate and defend some position I did not make about predisposal and evolution... if you knew about evolution than you would also know that if a trait gives a species an advantage, then that trait may end up being passed to the offspring. If a belief in God is something that we are predisposed to and it offers us an advantage, then it is something that may be passed off to our offspring. Maybe a predisposal towards faith did encourage survival at one time, but it doesn't follow it would do so now. It could be one of many outdated instincts we have. The tendency to make war and be territorial could also be defined as genetic traits, and at one time in our history we needed them to survive. Now, the very same traits could send us into self-destruction. Religion has been noted to be a social norming mechanism by Durkheim for example... so there is one reason right there that religion may be predisposed to exist within humanity. Personally I do think that the most valuable questions to me are questions that science fails to answer about spirituality, about why I am here, about the nature of the universe, about archetypes and why they exist, about parallel universes, about why the observer changes what they observe. Now you might find my questioning these things to be unintelligent, I find people that think they are completely logical to be dead wrong about their own self evaluations. I have to ask... why can't science answer those questions? Science actually does provide answers or at least speculations to these questions. You might just not be satisfied with them, and there is nothing wrong with that. No honest questioning is unintelligent, by any means. I guess I'm just curious as to why science failed with you. Did you find it disillusioning in some way? If so, why? Nobody is uberlogical all the time.. but it's possible to apply reason as best as you can, with enough practice. Critical thinking is a skill, not something inborn.

Rule -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:41:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver God, Alah, Buda, Grandfather ..what ever your chosen term.... they are all the same Dude. No, they are not. quote: ORIGINAL: Quivver And Yes Popeye I do think they get tired of hearing their name called over and over again. Some gods, in particular Satan, like to hear themselves being praised. From this may be inferred that the Divine also would like to be praised. The Creator could not care less, though it would be nice if people praised him. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania We human beings create the world we live in on a daily basis, we are creators, are we not? The universe is an energy field, and energy never dies. That alone makes us immortal, we truly are all connected to each other. That is a very humbling thing. Quite. That is a profound and accurate insight. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania How about the one I am partial to, that we are genetically predisposed to have a belief in a god , after life, or the sacred... like we are hardwired to have language and symbolic thought. We have archetypes (which fascinate me) for a reason, God is an archetype too... Quite. That is a profound and accurate insight as well. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania what purpose do archetypes serve? To show the way. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver There is no evidence that evolution predisposes anything. There is no evidence that we were meant to evolve You are so wrong... quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver It is the height of human conceit to believe we are central or even important in the great universal scheme of things. The universe will go merrily on its way, with or without us. Again you are so wrong! In fact there is at the moment in the universe nothing more important than the evolution of the human species. The whole population of the Milky Way is holding its breath and thousands of battle ships are moving towards our sun, as the signs are that the development of humanity is cascading towards the direst evil. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Studies have shown that an individual's morals and ethics are universal regardless of culture, ethnic group or religion,... Yes, I know there is not a total uniformity... Methinks that you are contradicting yourself. You cannot have it both ways. For your information: there do exist people that are totally without morals. Often they are economists, psychopaths, scientists or philosophers. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania There are things that most people feel inside of them that you are completely dismissive of, now you may not care to understand this, and you may never understand feeling connected to something bigger than yourself, that is perfectly ok with me. MC has shown himself before to be spiritually defective. There are both advantages and severe disadvantages to being spiritually defective. The best that he can do, is to associate with a spiritually aware person who can compensate for his poverty in that respect. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania if you knew about evolution than you would also know that if a trait gives a species an advantage, then that trait may end up being passed to the offspring. If a belief in God is something that we are predisposed to and it offers us an advantage, then it is something that may be passed off to our offspring. Quite. You verily understand the principle of evolution by natural selection. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver there is absolutely no evidence that an atheist or an atheist society has or would have less morals. Ahem. You seem completely unaware of the genocides committed by atheïstic regimes like those of the communist Sovjet Union, communist China and communist Red Khmer Cambodia. Ten of millions of religious peoples were murdered in those genocides. You were saying? quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver What keeps the peace in society, is not religion but human nature. Again you are so very wrong. Confucius was in direct opposition to this statement.

juliaoceania -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:48:55 AM)
quote: Scientists are just as prone to flaws as anybody else. But scientific method in general has a self-correcting system. Debate is actively encouraged, and being wrong is just a reason to move onto something else. No, it's not perfect, and nobody has said it was, but as a means of learning about our world, it's the best method we have, really. I fail to see your point about how religious people cloak themselves... ever hear of Creation Science? or how about plain old religious hypocrisy? Cloaking and subverted aren't limited to science alone. I don't believe anybody has stated that science is the be all end all of human existence. But given a choice, I'd trust science to deliver the goods. I am jaded. I know of professors that have told me of fossils of preclovis skulls being literally stolen to prop up "Clovis first" models. I know that scientists have actually mistated facts surrounding global warming for political purposes. You have every right to trust in science, but that is a faith based trust, not an empirical one. Now you find me a study that shows that science is not impacted by the observer affect... in other words there is no measurable reality that can be measured because the observer will always impact the experiment. It is an important point that no one has addressed. And I do not understand, what goods are being delivered exactly? I know there are religious hypocrites. Stating this only underlines my entire point, we can always point to flaws in others to prop up our own position... thanks for illustrating for me how human beings all do this. quote: Those are some pretty patronizing statements to make. It's ironic that this whole thing started because you assumed I was trying to come across as "superior". I realize this may not be directed at me personally, but "you may never understand feeling connected to something bigger then you yourself" strikes me as more then a bit passive-aggressive and self-righteous. How do you know? I define my family and society as bigger then myself. Strong ties there. Your statement puts a rather narrow slant on connections and how we perceive the world. It was not directed at you... therefore I do not understand why you are responding to it. I am talking about something bigger than all of us, the universe, god, life after death... not your family or MCs family. And yes I find most atheists to have a superior attitude when if you were being totally "logical" you would be agnostic.. there is no proof one way or another, any other position is not based upon logic, but belief. I am not passive aggressive, I am stating blantantly how I think and feel. I have contributed very little in these debates in the past because people tend to get overly emotional about their position... since i have no concrete faith, I tend not to be overly emotional about this topic. quote: Maybe a predisposal towards faith did encourage survival at one time, but it doesn't follow it would do so now. It could be one of many outdated instincts we have. The tendency to make war and be territorial could also be defined as genetic traits, and at one time in our history we needed them to survive. Now, the very same traits could send us into self-destruction. I do not know what you base this view on, but thanks for sharing it. quote: I have to ask... why can't science answer those questions? Science actually does provide answers or at least speculations to these questions. You might just not be satisfied with them, and there is nothing wrong with that. No honest questioning is unintelligent, by any means. I guess I'm just curious as to why science failed with you. Did you find it disillusioning in some way? If so, why? Nobody is uberlogical all the time.. but it's possible to apply reason as best as you can, with enough practice. Critical thinking is a skill, not something inborn. Study the new science coming out and then talk to me, your science really does not do any of the things you claim. There was a time when science thought all types of things were "known", only to shift its perspective. That is the one thing about science that I find of value, shifting perspectives...You ask how science has failed me, that made me chuckle.. people ask how God has failed me too[:D]. Seriously, it is a faith based thing that you are talking about, I am just pointing that out. Being a human being is not a rational thing, just pointing that out too. It took me a long time to get away from trying to make living a rational logical experience... it just isn't. Science can't fail me, it isn't a being that can fail me... I find that rather a telling use of language on your part. Look up the effect of the observer on the scientific method, the effect of human thought on matter, and then get back to me. I do not know what god is or if a god exists, i am not religious, I am spiritual and seek answers that science cannot offer as to the why of things, and the answer that I am offered by so called impirical science is hollow. I am not a rational creature after all, anyone who claims to be is full of shit.. is that brutal and not passive aggressive enough for you?

meatcleaver -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:49:01 AM)
Rule. Tell me what you smoke. I want some!

darkinshadows -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:50:39 AM)
quote: Some gods, in particular Satan, like to hear themselves being praised. From this may be inferred that the Divine also would like to be praised. The Creator could not care less, though it would be nice if people praised him. ok... I am gonna be pedantic here. Satan isnt and never was a god. He can think he is - and his worshippers can praise him like one, but ummmm... na.

darkinshadows -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:53:37 AM)
quote: "And the ass saw the angel of the LORD, and he lay down under Balaam. and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote that ass with his staff saying, "Look. just cuz you saw God, doesn't mean you aren't an ass." JamesMaynardKeenan

juliaoceania -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:59:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania That is not what I learned in college, would you please direct me to the study. I mean that sincerely, because from what I learned we can find many things that seem to be common among humanity, but there are no cultural universals. You are going to have to give me time JO. I've got to trawl through my books and magazines to find the source which is why I never posted a link but I'll come back with the source but I can't promise a link. I might have been a little misleading saying morals and ethics when I should have said behavour and choices. Morals and ethics gives the impression that a society or group has consciously codified behaviour. I appreciate you taking the time to find it. I would be extremely interested in such a study and open minded to it.

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 10:48:19 AM)
quote: Rule: Ahem. You seem completely unaware of the genocides committed by atheistic regimes like those of the communist Sovjet Union, communist China and communist Red Khmer Cambodia. Ten of millions of religious peoples were murdered in those genocides. Rule, Communism is a "religion". It meets all the criteria, including the criteria of killing the non-believers. quote: meatcleaver: What keeps the peace in society, is not religion but human nature. MC, We've gotten to that unfortunate point of a debate where we've taken and reduced the argument to its most common denominator and find ourselves in opposition without the hope or possibility of the final determination holding up to a scientific method of proof. Good for us! No casualties from the battle and it was enjoyable. quote: A belief in some form of religion is the majority, under any statistical analysis. The point is basic. It is fortunate that the majority hold that position because it gives a large pool of people who do believe there is some after-life consequence for actions taken in this life. Of course it doesn't mean they all do; results indicate otherwise. But the fact that most or even some do, and use their religious law and consequence as a moral guide for living has a positive impact on society. Some positive impact, yes. But what if we can do better? That's my point. =) Just because faith-based morality has worked for some people some of the time doesn't mean it's the best option. It's simply the only one experimented with in detail. Stella - Of course we can do better - but I doubt we'd ever agree on a collective definition of "better" as a collective goal. Politics and Religion - always good subjects to keep us warm with the fires of our convictions.

Rule -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 10:48:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen If you all dig really deep trenches, you could build yourselves barracks under the ground where the shelling from the opposition wont be anything more than a distant thud overhead. Be sure though to keep a watch on no man's land and an ear open for mine shafts being dug nearby to blow your trench system up. Admiring sigh quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Rule. Tell me what you smoke. I want some! Thus, MC, you demonstrate to be indeed defective spiritually. Either you are unable to recognize wisdom, or you believe that it is produced by substance abuse. Such an erroneous conviction is verily sad to afflict a human being. Wisdom does not come from substance abuse, MC. When will you choose to worship me?

ImmodicusFuror -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 10:59:08 AM)
quote: Rule: Ahem. You seem completely unaware of the genocides committed by atheistic regimes like those of the communist Sovjet Union, communist China and communist Red Khmer Cambodia. Ten of millions of religious peoples were murdered in those genocides. Communism is not a religion no matter what semantics you attach to the word. Admittedly these regimes are avowedly atheist, but most of their genocides had less to do with religion and more to do with politics, economics, and ethncities. If you are going to attack atheism by stating all of the groups that have done any evil whatsoever in its name, then I shall respond by doing the same with Christianty. Ku Klux Klan ring a bell anyone? Christian group. Ever heard of the Crusades, one of the cruelest invasions in all of history for purely religious purposes? Christians. The Nazi regime in Germany was as much a Christian organization as the Soviet Union was an atheist one. Get one thing straight in terms of human evil: Christian, Satanist, Atheist... they all have the same evil within them, the same capacity to do harm and good, and probably the same chances of doing either. No matter your feelings on any particular religion, do not go flashing around "atheist genocides" as a reason why atheists are "immoral." I am an atheist and never in my life have I stole anything, killed anything or anyone, or anything of that nature. I give blood to the Red Cross every fifty-six days, I donate money to charity... now, how am I immoral just because I do not believe in your invisible man in the sky?

Mercnbeth -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 11:09:59 AM)
quote: Communism is not a religion no matter what semantics you attach to the word. Admittedly these regimes are avowedly atheist, but most of their genocides had less to do with religion and more to do with politics, economics, and ethncities. It's not? Why? It requires belief in a position that can not be backed by observable fact. quote: If you are going to attack atheism by stating all of the groups that have done any evil whatsoever in its name, then I shall respond by doing the same with Christianty. Ku Klux Klan ring a bell anyone? Christian group. Ever heard of the Crusades, one of the cruelest invasions in all of history for purely religious purposes? Christians. The Nazi regime in Germany was as much a Christian organization as the Soviet Union was an atheist one. Get one thing straight in terms of human evil: Christian, Satanist, Atheist... they all have the same evil within them, the same capacity to do harm and good, and probably the same chances of doing either. Agreed - All in the name of their "religion". Rating bad, badder, worst accomplishes as little as ignoring truth. All rate a big - SO WHAT? quote: No matter your feelings on any particular religion, do not go flashing around "atheist genocides" as a reason why atheists are "immoral." I am an atheist and never in my life have I stole anything, killed anything or anyone, or anything of that nature. I give blood to the Red Cross every fifty-six days, I donate money to charity... now, how am I immoral just because I do not believe in your invisible man in the sky? I have no idea whose "invisible man in the sky" you are referencing, but as to the rest...Good for you! Keep donating! Why worry about another's definition of you? Where were atheists called "immoral"?

Rule -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 11:23:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Communism is a "religion". It meets all the criteria, including the criteria of killing the non-believers. quote: ORIGINAL: ImmodicusFuror Communism is not a religion no matter what semantics you attach to the word. Two conflicting statements by Merc and by IF. Amazingly, IF follows his statement with a lot of questionable semantics. (Stunningly might be the better word. I am truly dumbfounded.) Let me resolve the conflict: atheistic communism is the religion of psychopaths and the mentally deficient. Let me make a further statement in response to the ill-considered semantics by IF: All evil in whatever religion or system exists because Satan and his minions have corrupted such religions and systems. quote: ORIGINAL: ImmodicusFuror I am an atheist and never in my life have I stole anything, killed anything or anyone, or anything of that nature. I give blood to the Red Cross every fifty-six days, I donate money to charity... now, how am I immoral just because I do not believe in your invisible man in the sky? I have never said that you are immoral because you are an atheist. However, since you have by this example without a doubt demonstrated that you lack the ability to correctly and accurately comprehend what other people say, I can now declare unequivocally that you are not equipped to participate in any kind of intellectual debate. I recommend that you try fishing, or cutting wood, or cooking, or something.

NakedOnMyChain -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 4:11:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I was just wondering at the frequency of all the "Praise the Lords". I was just trying to imagine what God would be thinking after all those "Praise the Lords" in 5 minutes; "OK, OK, I HEARD YOU THE FIRST 28 TIMES!" Isn't saying it one time just as good as 100? Or 1,000? pops back in to the thread in an untimely fashion and much too late Well, considering that God's a woman she probably needs reassured. Try telling your significant other just once that you love her. You'll get dumped on your butt. The truth of it is, I really just like arguing with you Popeye. [;)] quote: Oh, and Hillary Clinton doesn't need any underhanded swipes, she's perfectly capable of swiping herself. Hey, as long as she's capable of wiping herself, that's all that matters to me. (I just couldn't help it.) Edited to add: Where'd the thread go? It was all praise and thanksgiving, but then it turned into a bunch of communism. I am just poking fun, of course.

MsParados -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 4:34:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Parados, I was asking if people thought that God might annoyed with all the "Praise the Lords," "Hallelieuahs", and "God is greats" all the time. And if people in here had really paid attention to the Bible when they were reading it they might have noticed that it is not the story of the Christians but the story of the Jews. Not only is it the story for the jew and the christans but also lays the base for Islam. don't forget that...... but I am confused (what's new?) because that post you commented on was directed more towards ferry. It has always amazed me that some think it is ok to be anti-catholic yet lord help you if you expressed anti-jewish sentiment. (the same can be said about racial slurs for some reason whitey, cracker, devil and Ofah are ok)

MsParados -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 4:52:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ...while yes past catholic leaders abused their power, so has ever other leader in the whole history of the world, get over it, they issued an apology in 1996 (I thiink, maybe 1993) The basic tenets of the catholic path (amended Vatican II) focuses on the Beattitutes, which if we all took into consideration would make this earth a little nicer (imo)... well, IMO, what a crock. Apologies mean nothing when you don’t change your ways. The catholic path you espouse, while paved with good intentions: has no room for practicing homosexuals won’t allow it’s women birth control or a shot at leading a congregation of the faithful has monopolized health care (and limited the choices of NON catholic women) in smaller towns where tax-paying hospitals can’t compete with them. Embracing homophobia and misogyny do NOT make this earth a little nicer. to popeye: isn't that why Catholics created saints to pray to, because God is just too busy to deal with all the hallelujiahs and prayers?[;)] I couldn't agree more with your complaints with the church but change that comes from with in takes along time; unfortunatly when or if that time will occur remains to be seen.... there is a 2nd coming after all ;)

Royalton -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 9:54:35 PM)
Praise the Lord!

popeye1250 -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 10:10:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsParados quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Parados, I was asking if people thought that God might annoyed with all the "Praise the Lords," "Hallelieuahs", and "God is greats" all the time. And if people in here had really paid attention to the Bible when they were reading it they might have noticed that it is not the story of the Christians but the story of the Jews. Not only is it the story for the jew and the christans but also lays the base for Islam. don't forget that...... but I am confused (what's new?) because that post you commented on was directed more towards ferry. It has always amazed me that some think it is ok to be anti-catholic yet lord help you if you expressed anti-jewish sentiment. (the same can be said about racial slurs for some reason whitey, cracker, devil and Ofah are ok) I agree with you there. We keep hearing all this nonsense about "The Hispanic vote" but half of them can't vote anyway! I don't think either Repubs or Dems "own" any "Hispanic vote." How come we never hear about the "Irish vote?" There's close to 45 million people of Irish descent in this country and almost all of them (can) vote! The pols ignore that fact at their own political peril. And what about "The Italian vote?" There's tens of millions more votes. The reason I started this thread is that I was listening to that show and I thought to myself; "Man, God must get tired of all those people yammering all the time and trying to kiss his ass!"

LadyAnnabelleLee -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/21/2007 11:17:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 "OK! OK! I KNOW I'M COOL! ENOUGH ALREADY! ENOUGH!" (God talks in caps I guess.) It's the booming voice that makes him talk in caps. Didn't you know that?!

StellaByStarlite -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/22/2007 8:28:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Rule. Tell me what you smoke. I want some! I wish you all the best of luck with this, lol. She's a bit too shrill and pretentious for my taste.

juliaoceania -> RE: "Praise the Lord!" (3/22/2007 8:58:41 AM)
Rule is a male.

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