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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

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ORIGINAL: KatyLied

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There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.

In the book of Job, god invites Satan to do all sorts of bad things to Job.

Maybe bad stuff is god's experiment?  [8D]

The old testement god was a psychopath. Not even Satan could up the sadistic tortures god had i mind!

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have studied religion, people, culture, and belief from an academic perspective. I am not a Christian. I love to get into the heads of those who adhere to other belief systems from all over the world. It seems most people are predisposed to believe in something, if only the scientific method, which basically is based upon faith. It is based upon a cultural belief system, and we as the observer often get it wrong, or we actually change what we observe
That is an excellent point. I'm not nearly as educated as you when it comes to world belief systems, but I can see how... say my American cultural tendency to embrace progress and change would sway any opinions towards science I might have. Science is by no means perfect, and you are correct that practically everything is subject to human bias. I just feel that after careful consideration, science is just the most reliable method of learning about our world

Now I do not have faith in much but myself. You see in my belief system I am a deliberate creator. I am God, we are all God, and I do not need to prove to you or anyone else that my belief is correct.
That's very true, you don't need to prove it at all, but on the other hand.. I think all ideas are subject to examination. Including my own. =)
Now seeing the diversity of religious faith on Planet Earth, the beauty of how people relate to The Sacred has always been deeply moving to me. It is not the content of their belief, it is the awe, the overwhelming power of the realization of how small we are in relation to everything else, yet how much a part of it we still remain.

I have read more than a few posts from you that seem to present yourself as somehow superior in your intellect in that you do not believe in anything... that attitude in and of itself is a belief structure. It sets you apart from the "faithful" and creates an attitude of superiority in my eyes... no better than that which you are supposedly denouncing.
Given the numbers of knee-jerk reaction atheists that are out there, that's understandable that you would come to that conclusion. However, it really wasn't my intention to come across as superior, 'cuz  I am far from it, lol. But I DO like to challenge religion and spirituality in general, when the opportunity presents itself. They're ideas, and aren't especially subject to any pedestal.
 
There are plenty of downright ignorant atheists that go around sneering at every mention of religion they come across. I don't feel I've done that. But when the topic is up for discussion, sure I'll have my say. But no... as far as superiority of intellect is concerned, no way. =) I've been beaten down by more then a few extremely well-educated theology buffs, oh my yes.
I get it on every side, especially from Athiests, they do not quite know how to take my comments. I hope you will not be offended by my comments, they were not meant to be offensive anymore than your comments about religion are meant to offend others.
Not at alloffended. I'll admit to sometimes being a bit overzealous when it comes to religion. You mentioned once, in another post, that there are no purely objective people, and you are very correct. =) I'm not motivated towards superiority, though. I just like to argue. ;)

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ORIGINAL: LotusSong

(SEE BELOW)

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ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have studied religion, people, culture, and belief from an academic perspective. I am not a Christian. I love to get into the heads of those who adhere to other belief systems from all over the world. It seems most people are predisposed to believe in something, if only the scientific method, which basically is based upon faith. It is based upon a cultural belief system, and we as the observer often get it wrong, or we actually change what we observe
That is an excellent point. I'm not nearly as educated as you when it comes to world belief systems, but I can see how... say my American cultural tendency to embrace progress and change would sway any opinions towards science I might have. Science is by no means perfect, and you are correct that practically everything is subject to human bias. I just feel that after careful consideration, science is just the most reliable method of learning about our world

Now I do not have faith in much but myself. You see in my belief system I am a deliberate creator. I am God, we are all God, and I do not need to prove to you or anyone else that my belief is correct.
That's very true, you don't need to prove it at all, but on the other hand.. I think all ideas are subject to examination. Including my own. =)
Now seeing the diversity of religious faith on Planet Earth, the beauty of how people relate to The Sacred has always been deeply moving to me. It is not the content of their belief, it is the awe, the overwhelming power of the realization of how small we are in relation to everything else, yet how much a part of it we still remain.

I have read more than a few posts from you that seem to present yourself as somehow superior in your intellect in that you do not believe in anything... that attitude in and of itself is a belief structure. It sets you apart from the "faithful" and creates an attitude of superiority in my eyes... no better than that which you are supposedly denouncing.
Given the numbers of knee-jerk reaction atheists that are out there, that's understandable that you would come to that conclusion. However, it really wasn't my intention to come across as superior, 'cuz  I am far from it, lol. But I DO like to challenge religion and spirituality in general, when the opportunity presents itself. They're ideas, and aren't especially subject to any pedestal.
 
There are plenty of downright ignorant atheists that go around sneering at every mention of religion they come across. I don't feel I've done that. But when the topic is up for discussion, sure I'll have my say. But no... as far as superiority of intellect is concerned, no way. =) I've been beaten down by more then a few extremely well-educated theology buffs, oh my yes.
I get it on every side, especially from Athiests, they do not quite know how to take my comments. I hope you will not be offended by my comments, they were not meant to be offensive anymore than your comments about religion are meant to offend others.
Not at alloffended. I'll admit to sometimes being a bit overzealous when it comes to religion. You mentioned once, in another post, that there are no purely objective people, and you are very correct. =) I'm not motivated towards superiority, though. I just like to argue. ;)

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Stella,
I needed a word - "spirituality" fit the bill. Human secularists, aka "atheists", can be as "spiritual" as anyone else. I speak to the institutions. Catholicism and liberalism, Islam and conservatism, are very close at their fundamental roots. The distinction is that religious consequences impact human behavior in this world - the only world I currently consider valid. I'd be much safer in a world where everyone believed any act perpetrated against me or mine in this plane of existence had a consequence in the next plane. The insidious nature of Islam, at least the louder and more visible group outsiders refer to as "radical Islam", is that murdering infidels results in a positive reward. But this isn't a thread about Islam.
But atheism and secular humanism don't always go hand in hand. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any god/gods. As I understand it, secular humanism is the idea that one can be ethical and want to improve their world WITHOUT god. So, one can be an immoral, lowdown dirty sonofabitch and still be an atheist.
Spirituality is one of those muddy concepts, and I apologize for not being more clear as to what it means to *me*. Any kind of "unseen" force type stuff.. higher power, karma, god, energies, the spirit world.. that is what I think of when I see that word. But it's a very personal concept, so my definition is doubtless different then others.
Question: Do you think a true faith in consequences in the next plane is a real deterrent to violence? Since faith is subject to interpretation, then how are we to know what is true or not? Since none of it is provable, then the concept of rewards for murder in the afterlife is just as valid as punishment for the same thing.
I mean.. let's look at Hinduism and Karma. I'm no expert on Hinduism, but it's belief in Karma doesn't seem to stop atrocities from occuring there. Or abject poverty. Or the caste system. One could easily turn karma around and instead justify poverty and oppression with it.

Call what I call "spirituality" "karma" and you don't have the problem of involving a Deity or an institution. On this plane, belief that a negative karma resulted in any act perpetrated upon another has the same impact as eternal damnation. The lack of belief in any afterlife makes this life "eternal". Getting caught isn't necessary. The negative act alone is to be avoided because the negativity returns to you.
Except it doesn't always pan out that way, does it? If something bad happens to me, do I automatically link it to a mistake done in my past? And who decides this, anyway? I'm sorry, I'm going to go personal here and just say.. that is a horrifying and despairing way to live. Look, my little brother died suddenly in November, and it's been hell ( no pun intended). Believing that this pain brought to my family was the result of something, some collective mistake we made.. that's just monstrous.
 Besides, as a learning tool, what good would karma do, anyway? If we're being cosmically "punished" somehow.. we wouldn't know what we would be punished for. Does a person lose an arm because he stole a magazine in the 5th grade? Does a woman get battered in her marriage because she told a lie to her mother?
"Ethics" and/or "morality" are still moving targets and can easily migrate to an "ism". Who doesn't believe enough in their personal ethics and/or morality to defend them and rationalize behavior because of them? Yet, a group of people believing in the same ethics and morals can defend genocide of another people solely because the other people's morals and ethics are distracting to theirs.
Yes, they are moving targets, I will agree wholeheartedly there. On one end we have absolutism, on the other end we have relativism. Neither one are very practical, though, in the long run.
One of my favorite authors, Michael Shermer, came up with the idea of "provisional ethics" I don't have the book handy - The Science of Good and Evil is the name of it. But he proposes that something is right or wrong "when it has been confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to offer provisional agreement"
Clear?
as crystal. ;P
And I don't "bitch-slap" unless you ask politely![8D]

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Good for you, Caitlyn, that you can support the hypocisy in action at the Vatican all the way down to your local church and with the "religious" folks you live with by believing that the "good" that is done in the name of Catholicism outweighs the "bad".  To this slave, the Catholic church and their minions are the biggest glaring example of "Anti-Christ(ian)" imaginable.
 
when the hypocisy of not allowing Masons to be elders or speak in the church came to the Disciples of Christ sect that Dad was a member, elder and congregational song-leader of for 20+ years, he quit the church.  His faith in God remained, but his faith in organized religion was crushed.  He didn't join another congregation for the rest of his life.  He had a Masonic funeral, and according to his beliefs, was not damned to eternal suffering in hell as your religion, and others, claim.
 
to a practicing Catholic, this slave's realizes that her opinion doesn't really matter anyway, because this slave is just another lost soul, a heathen/pagan who will NEVER convert to the "One True Religion" and is damned to burn in Catholic hell for eternity.
 
this slave doesn't spend her Sunday's damning anyone to hell or padding the coffers of an organization that claims to follow the teachings of the Christ, but doesn't.

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There is a simple explanation as to why people believe in god or the soul or spirituality or whatever and that is the way the brain works. The human brain is designed to give objects intent and there is a simple explanation for this. In dangerous situations the brain, rather than working things out (is that a tiger or an antelope etc.) and using valuable time and delaying your reactions to a point you could get killed, it immediately signals to the brain the object it is viewing has intent and gives an almost immediate reaction.There are two side affects caused by the brain working this way, one is to give the sense of disconnection between the mind and body so people tend to experience the mind and body as two separate entities. The other is to apply meaning to inanimate objects, just like many tribal people do and just has not so tribal people do in religious ritual, this can also give the effect of being influenced by someone outside ourselves. However, as Richard Dawkins pointed out, this is probably no more than an off spin such as why moths spiral into a candle flame. They navigate using stars or distant lights on the horizon but if there is a light too close such as a candle, as they keep the candle in the sight of one of their eye segments they inevitably spiral into the flame. However, navigating will have its advantages and not that many moths kill themselves in candle flames so evolution doesn't interfer. As with humans, the positives as to how the brain works far outweighs the negatives so the side affect of believing our mind (soul) is separate from our body is never corrected. 

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A far more realistic explanation than a virgin birth (which was a mistranslation), a man rising from the dead (wishful thinking) and much more mumbo-jumbo that was thought up before we had the knowledge to explain why we experience like we do. I'm afraid it is religious people that are the ignorant ones, prefering to believe in superstition than reason. This would also explain why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Events have nothing to do with someone being good or bad, we are all subject to chance.

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Am I sneering? No. I'm just baffled as to why so many apparently intelligent people can believe in the nonsense of superstition.

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EDIT As Dawkins points out, you might mistake a shadow for a burglar but you won't mistake a burglar for a shadow. The brain gives the shadow intent which is why we get spooked.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

This is a functional/structual argument.... and these rarely hold up to examination. You cannot for certain state that this is the reason we have religion. Just because something seems to perform a function does not mean that it therefore is the reason for it being that way. This above description is a functional argument... unprovable, and basically biased and untestable with the scientific method. I think you would be better off looking at the intellectualist theories of why religion exists, because it helps people explain their world on some level. You may also find Evans-Pritchard even more beneficial, because tribal people understand cause and effect very well, religion explains why things happen in a different way... like why bad things happen to good people.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Branding all spiritual people as religious and superstitious is also a logical fallacy, because not all spirituality revolves around a diety... take Taoism or Buddhism as but two examples. Not all religious people are spiritual and not all spiritual people are religious. I would think you would know this, but just in case I thought I would point it out to you.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You are sneering when you question the intellect of people because they do not believe as you do... and Athieism is a belief. I am no more superstitious than you are, and I have a new science to back up my worldview called quantum physics and quantum mechanics.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Actually the brain is much more powerful than you give it credit for, the perceived burglar could frighten someone just as much as the real thing, perhaps even leading to a coronary.

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You will have a sense of falling and splatting, unless you are one of those lucky one in a million people who suvive. It might not be testable as to why we believe in religion but it is testable as to how the brain functions and one can deduct that the separation we perceive between mind and body is because of how the brain functions.