RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (Full Version)

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curiouslyseeking -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 8:40:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I have just read several threads that have made me want to ask this question.
Are many submissives really bottoms?  I don't see anything wrong with being
a bottom, yet so few online claim that title. 
I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences
between being a submissive and a bottom.
Thanks in advance.


I agree with many on this thread that the title "bottom" appears to have a more negative connotation attached to it..percieved as less than a submissive or slave..not quite sure why...
 
I started on my journey almost 9 years ago....and for the first 2 years I definitely was a bottom...very content...my needs at that time totally being fulfilled...
 
....and the myth about no certain kind of play when you are a bottom...(laughing)...not true...I've known some bottoms with lots less limits than submissives.
 
Actually pretty interesting...my limits haven't changed as my submission preferences have.
 
So "bottoms" rock on



mythi -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 8:58:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

Most of the endless problems and complaints come from people NOT knowing
what they are, which leads to relationship problems.
If you don't know what you are, and the person you are dealing with does not know
what they are, I can see why so many have the problems they do.


I honestly don't see how what they call each other is any of your business, or anyone's other then theirs. Valyraen and I consider me his kitten, his lover, his girlfriend, his friend, his submissive and possibly one day his wife. What does it matter what we call each other most frequently as long as we are both happy?

Edited because it sent too early: I guess I just don't get the hang-up on labels. A person who feels like they are a slave to one might be kitten to another or submissive to another. I feel like one should choose the "title" they are most at home in for their particular relationship.


I think the problems arise when people are looking...not what you call yourself/each other inside of a relationship.  Because for better or worse, labels carry expectations.  And they're one of the ways we try to narrow our search when we're looking.  For example I would read no further if someone self-identified as a Top because that label implies to me that what they want isn't what I want to provide.



VeryMercurial -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:02:07 PM)

Thank you mythi, well stated.  I don't know why many take everything so personally around here.
I thought I stated that I was talking about people around here that seem to have so many problems
in relationships.



AquaticSub -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:05:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

Thank you mythi, well stated.  I don't know why many take everything so personally around here.
I thought I stated that I was talking about people around here that seem to have so many problems
in relationships.


I did not mean to imply I was taking it personally, as I don't believe I am. I've simply noticed that people can get very fussy when it comes to titles. I've seen slaves chastise others for not being "slave enough" so they shouldn't call themselves slave. It just seems very odd to me. Perhaps I am naive in strange ways. *smiles*



IrishMist -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:09:13 PM)

quote:

Because for better or worse, labels carry expectations. 

Well, for you maybe they do; but that is not true for everyone.

quote:

  Thank you mythi, well stated.  I don't know why many take everything so personally around here.
I thought I stated that I was talking about people around here that seem to have so many problems
in relationships

I did not take it personally. I simply asked why YOU, an outsider, would care what they chose to label themselves as.




VeryMercurial -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:14:00 PM)

Read the OP again, reading is fundamental.



IrishMist -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:16:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

Read the OP again, reading is fundamental.

REALLY????
 
You don't say.

I read the original post, along with all the subsequent posts and answers that were given. My reading skills are up to par.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:21:08 PM)

I think some people have trouble in relationships because judgemental assholes whine and snivel that they aren't "right" because they don't identify the way they feel they should.  The want to cram everyone into tiny boxes as it satisfies their need to control everyone around them.

Almost 2/3 of the problems in relationships that I saw while I was active in the scene had, as a major component, an issue with roles/labels and other preconcieved thoughts.  If more people just let go and dealt with the human in front of them than the label, real or imagined, things would be vastly better.



fiddlegirl -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:24:54 PM)

Hi VeryMercurial.  I'm one of those who identify as a bottom rather than submissive.  This is because my overall goal in play is to please myself, i.e., to experience the feelings that I enjoy.  I think it's just great that my tops also enjoy inflicting those feelings... but from my perspective, their pleasure is a fringe benefit, not the source of my pleasure.  I think for a submissive it's the other way around... pleasing the dominant is the goal, and their own pleasure is the fringe benefit.

But I think it's a misconception that top/bottom play is synonymous with "kinky sex".  For me, it's about pain... actually, one of my tops is a man who I never have sex with (I'm queer).  We don't think of the pain play as being foreplay... or as being service... it's just good clean fun, eh?

Fiddlegirl



slaveish -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:25:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences
between being a submissive and a bottom.


Without over-exerting my pea shooter, I see it as power exchange vs. play, although a submissive can also be a bottom and a bottom can be a submissive. Potato, potahto, projectile ... whatever.



MzMia -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:48:15 PM)

I can't speak for the female submissive's, but I have found many bottom males on CM,
that call themselves submissives.  I wish CM would start including the categories of
bottoms and TOPS on the selection menu!
I have talked to many men that I don't think had a clue what submission even means,
oh I take that back...most had a checklist of "activities" that they would to submit to!
Gotta love it![:D]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 9:59:41 PM)

Actually I love this topic.  The number one response I get when I tell people I'm a switch is how I'm not confused in relationships and how my partners relate to me.

This shows the point that I've been saying for years- being a switch is NO MORE OR LESS DEFINED than ANY OTHER LABEL in the scene.  The identity confusion and the conflict between people in relationships over "what do you mean when you say this" is a UNIVERSAL issue of communication, self awareness and growth personally and relationship wise.

And yes, it can cause problems.  But without it, we'd simply be stagnant.  I'd prefer people WORK to have to figure out who they are and what that means to them and their relationships rather than just tack on a sweet pretty label and act like that's all they need.

In fact a lot of people TRY to do just that and end up right where we are discussing now- in an unhappy relationship filled with confusion and dissent because the labels just don't stick when it comes to real life.

Or, as Alanis puts it "The only way out is through, the faster we're in the better"

Work it out, you'll grow TOGETHER.  It's not the label that's the issue, it's the lack of self awareness behind the label.



mythi -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 10:06:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

Because for better or worse, labels carry expectations. 

Well, for you maybe they do; but that is not true for everyone.



So if I tell you I'm Catholic, you have no preconceived notions whatsoever of what I believe or how I act?  Cus most people do, no matter how wrong many of those notions often end up being. 

I did say "for better or worse" and I meant both.  Because the reality of language is that we, as a general culture, imbue words with meaning.  Expecting a word that one applies to oneself to conform to at least some of the things that our culture currently accepts it to mean is fundamental to communication. 

And damned if I'm going to explain every nuance of my sexuality and psychology right up front when "I'm a f. sub, if not interested in f.'s or subs, move along" allows people not interested in submissive females to avoid wasting their time. 



MzMia -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 10:18:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Actually I love this topic.  The number one response I get when I tell people I'm a switch is how I'm not confused in relationships and how my partners relate to me.

This shows the point that I've been saying for years- being a switch is NO MORE OR LESS DEFINED than ANY OTHER LABEL in the scene.  The identity confusion and the conflict between people in relationships over "what do you mean when you say this" is a UNIVERSAL issue of communication, self awareness and growth personally and relationship wise.

And yes, it can cause problems.  But without it, we'd simply be stagnant.  I'd prefer people WORK to have to figure out who they are and what that means to them and their relationships rather than just tack on a sweet pretty label and act like that's all they need.

In fact a lot of people TRY to do just that and end up right where we are discussing now- in an unhappy relationship filled with confusion and dissent because the labels just don't stick when it comes to real life.

Or, as Alanis puts it "The only way out is through, the faster we're in the better"

Work it out, you'll grow TOGETHER.  It's not the label that's the issue, it's the lack of self awareness behind the label.


**Standing ovation** now LA, I need to join your fan club.
That was very well stated......I personally have TRIED to imagine myself as
a submissive or a switch for a long time.
That is the only reason I am convinced I am not a submissive or a switch.
Most thinking people should consider all the options in this lifestyle.
There is NOTHING wrong with being a switch, bottom, TOP, Dominant or submissive.
Hell, what makes any one of these BETTER than the damn other?????
NOTHING
Most of the problems around here, seem to be people clinging/claiming labels that
do not suit them!  Rather than examining THEIR hearts/habits and souls, they spend
a lot of time criticizing others.
When you know who you are and what you want, you usually will not settle for a relationship,
with someone who does NOT know what the hell they are!!!!
 



FelinePersuasion -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 10:18:37 PM)

I am a bottom. I feel the difference between a submissive and a bottom is the control. I have no interest in a power exchange outside my Dom. Any one I play with I bottom to, I don't call them Sir and I mostly call the shots, and what ever happens in the parameters of our negotiations is fine.
quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences
between being a submissive and a bottom.
Thanks in advance.



slavegirljoy -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 10:40:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiddlegirl

I think for a submissive it's the other way around... pleasing the dominant is the goal, and their own pleasure is the fringe benefit.

Fiddlegirl


This is certainly true in my case, a self-identified submissive slave.  i NEED to feel that He is getting off on what He is doing to me or having me do, in order for me to feel good, no matter what is being done to me or by me.
 
i serve to please Him, not to be pleased by Him.  It's not that i can't feel pleasure any other way.  It's just that within BDSM, it is the only way for me to feel pleasure.
 
As long as i see that i am satisfying Him and pleasing Him, i'm getting what i need to make me feel satisfied.  That is the only way for me to feel any pleasure from BDSM.  For me, it is all about Him.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



MzMia -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 10:41:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiddlegirl

I think for a submissive it's the other way around... pleasing the dominant is the goal, and their own pleasure is the fringe benefit.

Fiddlegirl


This is certainly true in my case, a self-identified submissive slave.  i NEED to feel that He is getting off on what He is doing to me or having me do, in order for me to feel good, no matter what is being done to me or by me.
 
i serve to please Him, not to be pleased by Him.  It's not that i can't feel pleasure any other way.  It's just that within BDSM, it is the only way for me to feel pleasure.
 
As long as i see that i am satisfying Him and pleasing Him, i'm getting what i need to make me feel satisfied.  That is the only way for me to feel any pleasure from BDSM.  For me, it is all about Him.  
slave joy
Owned property of Master David


you go girl![:D] he is lucky to have you.



slavegirljoy -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/19/2007 11:02:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

you go girl![:D] he is lucky to have you.


Thank You so much.  That is very nice of You to say.  i truly feel like i am the lucky one, but i think that's because W/we are good together. 
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David



IrishMist -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/20/2007 3:06:27 AM)

quote:

So if I tell you I'm Catholic, you have no preconceived notions whatsoever of what I believe or how I act?  Cus most people do, no matter how wrong many of those notions often end up being. 

Actually, no, I have no preconceived notions about what you believe or how you act. No more than I would if you said Baptist, or Wiccan.

I judge people by how they act; not by what they call themselves.



Celeste43 -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (3/20/2007 7:09:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

I think it's more the other way around, or upside-down, or something.

My perception from reading the boards is that quite often you will see submissives or slaves who don't engage in painplay at all.  They aren't bottoms at all.

Jeff



Not all play is painplay. I'm a bondage bottom and submissive to one but no interest in pain.

And to the op, instead of disparaging subs by claiming they aren't "true" subs, why not be adult about it and just say they aren't compatible with you. I'm submissive but I'm not compatible with most doms. I'm only compatible with ones who aren't sadistic, are interested in bondage, and don't demand that I do stupid things to prove myself a true sub. I don't respect those types at all and I'd walk the first time.

I'm with the right one for me because he respects my limits, likes me as a friend, and has moral values that match my own. He never demanded things from me that he didn't earn and he understood that the only pace I can move it is one I am comfortable with.

The ones who say the first thing they'll do is break my limits are the ones I don't give a minute to. If you're looking for a different kind of sub, that's fine but no need to disparage those you don't match.



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