RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (Full Version)

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VeryMercurial -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 3:41:29 PM)

Nice to see someone brought the thread back.
I am seeing more and more bottoms every day.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 4:34:34 PM)

If someone went into the Ask a Mistress forum and posted  I see more and more tops claiming to be dommes every day, would you find that insulting? Or would you agree with that comment? Just curious




VeryMercurial -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 4:36:29 PM)

Actually, I see a lot of Tops online also.
There are a lot of Tops and bottoms online.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 4:45:23 PM)

That was not my question....

My question was how would you feel if someone posted your comment in the Mistress forum like you posted yours in the submissive forum.

I do not personally care what anyone calls me but my Daddy, but there is a layer of insult to your statement being posted in the submissive forum in my eyes... just my opinion of course, but it just reminds me of the many many doms that come here railing how we are not "real" or "true"... as if they get to define who we are or something. Perhaps you think these are bottoms instead of submissives... maybe to another domme they would make an ideal submissive.




marieToo -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 4:54:13 PM)

What a hilarious thread.

Are  bottoms really tops who control?  Most dommes are really just tops. Tops are really doms because they are controlling the bottom.  But then who is really in control? Submissives are slaves that don't have a master yet.  Bottoms do submissive things, so that means they aren't tops.   Slaves are really just submissive bottoms who top their Masters.  Bottoms just play in the bedroom but top their dommes in the kitchen.  Submissives give up power outside of the bedroom  but doms who top bottoms in the bedroom are really just tops..blah blah blah.
 
You poor tortured souls.




VeryMercurial -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 5:00:47 PM)

Marie? I like your style.

Julia, lighten up babe.




marieToo -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 5:05:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

Marie? I like your style.



Sure sure....You just want me to bottom to you after I give up trying to be a submissive who used to be a slave to a Master who was really a top.




subsofthearted -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 5:19:08 PM)

I don’t believe that there is a correct or an incorrect answer to this question. It would seem to me that it is more of an opinion of how an individual would interpret the definition. So as a submissive I take the attitude of defining a bottom as one who desires to be the bottom. I hear it often used in regard to those individuals that switch. Then again I also am told by some that a bottom is the term used when a sub is in a scene with someone that is not their Dom. But… aren’t all submissives bottoms?




MistressDolly -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 6:11:38 PM)




edited to add:

quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I have just read several threads that have made me want to ask this question.
Are many submissives really bottoms?  I don't see anything wrong with being
a bottom, yet so few online claim that title. 
I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences
between being a submissive and a bottom.
Thanks in advance.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Probably about the same amount as Dommes who are really Tops.


:)




annare -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/18/2007 8:03:41 PM)

i found the following definitions on the Informed Consent website:

A bottom is a partner who takes the role of receiver in such acts as bondage, discipline, sadomasochism or humiliation in BDSM scenes or interactions. The bottom is quite often the partner who is giving instructions, i.e., they direct the Top as to what and when things are to happen to them.

Sub is a term used to conote a person who gives up control and gets satisfaction from aspects of submission which may include serving or being used by the dominant. Subs often are turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up responsbility. They don't dictate the scene except in very general terms.
 
     These definitions are as close to my thoughts regarding these two lables as i would have been able to piece together from my own lil head. i believe that a bottom is one who receives... the nature of the term came about in homosexual relationships to denote the receiving partner... A bottom does not have to be submissive, infact, bottoms can most assuredly be Dominant. It would seem to me the primary difference is that by definition, a submissive is primarily about giving. one who lives a submissive lifestyle is usually service oriented, concerned with seeing to their Dominant's desires and needs rather than their own. submissives are often bottoms as most Dominants prefer to be "Tops" however, i believe that according to the definition, the difference is in the approach.  The bottom is a bottom because they have decided to be... a submissive is a bottom when their Dominant chooses them to be.

in service,
annare




Viridana -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 3:41:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

That was not my question....

My question was how would you feel if someone posted your comment in the Mistress forum like you posted yours in the submissive forum.

I do not personally care what anyone calls me but my Daddy, but there is a layer of insult to your statement being posted in the submissive forum in my eyes... just my opinion of course, but it just reminds me of the many many doms that come here railing how we are not "real" or "true"... as if they get to define who we are or something. Perhaps you think these are bottoms instead of submissives... maybe to another domme they would make an ideal submissive.

I sense you are a bit offended by this thread and I don't really understand why. On collarme there isn't an option to assign yourself the status of bottom or top so people assign themselves the closest possibility (Dom/me and sub). What I interpret this thread to be is she's asking how many people there are here who would assign themselves as a bottom rather than sub if the option were at hand.




Areflectionofyou -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 4:18:47 AM)

its all terminology.....alot are just bottoms, but i don't concern myself with what others call themselves as long as all involved are happy




becca333 -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 6:57:08 AM)

Submissive is what you are.  Bottom is what you do.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 7:23:13 AM)

quote:

I sense you are a bit offended by this thread and I don't really understand why. On collarme there isn't an option to assign yourself the status of bottom or top so people assign themselves the closest possibility (Dom/me and sub). What I interpret this thread to be is she's asking how many people there are here who would assign themselves as a bottom rather than sub if the option were at hand.


I would recommend trying not to sense people online, because I am not offended.

What I am saying is that I have seen more than one thread and post from femdoms bemoaning how unsubly men are... now this may or may not be true.. perhaps they are all bottoms, but by what definition? If you will note, on the first page I answered sincerely, but the response you highlight was because in fact I think we should label ourselves... no one else should label us.

I would not go into a forum for masters and make such a comment as the one she left here, I do not question other people's orientations in that way.

Now she can post whatever she likes, and have whatever opinions she wants... all I did was ask her how she would feel if someone left the same post in the mistress forum... curious.. she never answered me




Lordandmaster -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 7:32:58 AM)

Yes, I love doing bottoms!

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Submissive is what you are.  Bottom is what you do.




Viridana -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 9:08:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not question other people's orientations in that way.


I don't see how she's questioning anyone or any orientation here. To me she's asking who in here would rather identify themselfs as bottoms than submissives. And that's a question I see nothing insulting with and I'd put the same question without hesitation into both mistress and master forums.

And pardon me for interpreting your post. I will refrain from "getting a sense" from anything you write in near and far future.




amayos -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 10:26:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I have just read several threads that have made me want to ask this question.
Are many submissives really bottoms? I don't see anything wrong with being a bottom, yet so few online claim that title. I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences between being a submissive and a bottom.



In its simplest meaning, to submit means to yield to the authority or will of another. The notion has nothing to do with sexual antics or the want of having fetishes top serviced; it is a word speaking in clear terms about the bending of one to another. That is the beautiful simplicity of it all, in fact. Yet as straight forward as this word submit may appear, there are many who ascribe it to themselves with a considerable amount of confusion and invention.

In my experience, the reality is most "submissives" are in fact bottoms. They are chasing a dream and yearning to submit to it in the form of a host. The host / dominant party becomes nothing more than a provider module—a gateway—for the manifestation of the submissive play actor's desires. What they give may look like submission, but they are in the end merely bartering, or to put it perhaps more bluntly, purchasing their Mistress's attentions to gratify their needs.

An authentically submissive being is set upon the path perhaps at first due to what dreams awakened and propelled him, but these dreams do not become his Mistress. He seeks the essence of a superior force in another—to kneel at the feet of one who naturally compels him to kneel by virtue of so many things, not simply to get off. There is an undeniable link to sensualism and submission, but one must keep in mind that sensualism—be it masochism or sexuality and any number of shades in between—are merely conduits through which it can be expressed. If one truly contains the spirit of submission, it will show in his actions, in his words and all the subtle, near-invisible layers that comprise him. To act submission is tremendously difficult. To be it when one contains it is as easy as breathing.




AAkasha -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 12:07:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos


quote:

ORIGINAL: VeryMercurial

I have just read several threads that have made me want to ask this question.
Are many submissives really bottoms? I don't see anything wrong with being a bottom, yet so few online claim that title. I would like to hear some comments on what people here feel are the differences between being a submissive and a bottom.



In its simplest meaning, to submit means to yield to the authority or will of another. The notion has nothing to do with sexual antics or the want of having fetishes top serviced; it is a word speaking in clear terms about the bending of one to another. That is the beautiful simplicity of it all, in fact. Yet as straight forward as this word submit may appear, there are many who ascribe it to themselves with a considerable amount of confusion and invention.

In my experience, the reality is most "submissives" are in fact bottoms. They are chasing a dream and yearning to submit to it in the form of a host. The host / dominant party becomes nothing more than a provider module—a gateway—for the manifestation of the submissive play actor's desires. What they give may look like submission, but they are in the end merely bartering, or to put it perhaps more bluntly, purchasing their Mistress's attentions to gratify their needs.

An authentically submissive being is set upon the path perhaps at first due to what dreams awakened and propelled him, but these dreams do not become his Mistress. He seeks the essence of a superior force in another—to kneel at the feet of one who naturally compels him to kneel by virtue of so many things, not simply to get off. There is an undeniable link to sensualism and submission, but one must keep in mind that sensualism—be it masochism or sexuality and any number of shades in between—are merely conduits through which it can be expressed. If one truly contains the spirit of submission, it will show in his actions, in his words and all the subtle, near-invisible layers that comprise him. To act submission is tremendously difficult. To be it when one contains it is as easy as breathing.



There are some people that say there is no such thing as an authentic submissive like the one you describe.  That there must be something in it for the submissive or else they would not be in the relationship in the first place, and that power exchange can exist in a mutually beneficial scenario where the "needs" of both people are met on an ongoing basis. How do you respond to that?

The most "authentically" submissive men I have been in relationships with were not kinky, not submissive (self identified as such) at all, but were hopelessly in love and totally devoted.  That level of devotion creates a desire to please that is totally undeniable. 

On another note:

There's a type of submissive in a kinky sense, though, that does crave/desire/need a power exchange dynamic where they are challenged and persuaded to endure acts and situations they find terrifying (and alluring) and the dominant is the key to their pleasure -- but ONLY if she is taking honest *authentic* pleasure in his plight.  A truly loving partner who fakes it to try to please him will not satisfy his urges.  In all my soul searching and self-investigation I have come to realize that this "bottom" (if you want to label it as such because it has an agenda of sorts) is the connection that my "top" side seeks.  Is it no real power exchange because his needs are being met and mine are too?  Ehh, maybe. Not a big deal to me. I just know it works!

Akasha




amayos -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 4:03:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

There are some people that say there is no such thing as an authentic submissive like the one you describe. That there must be something in it for the submissive or else they would not be in the relationship in the first place, and that power exchange can exist in a mutually beneficial scenario where the "needs" of both people are met on an ongoing basis. How do you respond to that?



I would say there is of course a fulfillment taking place in the submissive, but it is not one that points solely to him, or much at all to him in fact; his pleasure derives from the pleasure of his Mistress. In this vein, one cannot deny the symbiosis a dominant and submissive being share together, but the surface understanding of this system should not be hijacked and twisted into a method of undermining the very nature of submission, where unspoken point counting for some sort of abstract equality and service-oriented role play is the goal.

I feel phrases like "mutually beneficial" and "power exchange" are notoriously misleading in a domination and submission context. One draws from them the essence of something being bartered or swapped in equal measure, when in fact inequality and imbalance is the entire point. Many share a superstitious dread when speaking of submission alongside words like "true" or "authentic," as if such qualities can never be measured in it. While I know these concepts are often abused, we should not discard them simply because others use them dumbly or nefariously. While there are so many ways of describing true blue submission, your definition—love and total devotion—was simple and perfect, in fact. One should consider and respect the process inherent in attaining this state of mind, however. As you hinted yourself, it has nothing to do with "BDSM" trappings.




juliaoceania -> RE: Are many submissives really bottoms? (6/19/2007 4:25:08 PM)

quote:

I feel phrases like "mutually beneficial" and "power exchange" are notoriously misleading in a domination and submission context. One draws from them the essence of something being bartered or swapped in equal measure, when in fact inequality and imbalance is the entire point.


The nature of the world is to find balance in all things... without balance life is not what it should be. I find it interesting that you seek something one sided and imbalanced, but not all see life this way.

A parasite also seeks to live off the energy of another while they live and breathe without contributing anything back in the form of energy exchange that is meaningful to both. A predator seeks to take the life of their prey in order to acquire the lifeforce energy... a symbiotic relationship is one in which each creature derives what is necessary for its survival... it all depends on what sort of relationship one prefers... if a true submissive is as you describe... I would not desire to be one, but alas, I do not let others but my Daddy define me.. so its all good.




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