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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 11:51:18 AM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's 'crazy ass liberal', s'il vous plait.

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 12:12:07 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Taxicabs everywhere are more than happy to take on American tourists, but they do worry they'll get paid, what with the state of the dollar and all  .


Kittin, why is it that only those on the left try to make a mountain out of a molehill about the U.S.'s "standing" in the world?
How about the "standing" of the Czeck Rep. or,....Kuala Lampur?
Funny, they never bring up the "standing" of other countries, only the U.S., have you ever noticed that?
Why is that?
And, what can I as an American Citizen do to lower my country's "standing" in the world extra-govt even further?


popeye, these last few months American politicians and commentators have been on European TV complaining about US standing falling and losing influence in the world and hoping a new President will do something about it. As one senator said whose name escapes me, America can't claim to be the leader of the free world and wield influence it thinks it deserves when no one wants to follow it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 12:13:03 PM >

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 1:30:20 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		If the US any sense it will do what the UK should do, look after its own interests.
Let the "free" world do the same.

Thats Popeye's repeated message and I think he's right.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 2:29:52 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

If the US any sense it will do what the UK should do, look after its own interests.
Let the "free" world do the same.

Thats Popeye's repeated message and I think he's right.


Wish it was true but its not. The US has troops in Europe, it is siting missiles and a radar station in Poland and Czech, apart from installations elesewhere. As long as there are US troops in Europe and rightwing Presidents are destabilizing the region, people are going to take an interest. I'm not against the dismantling of NATO, it has served its purpose and finding it a new role for the alliance is causing more trouble than its worth.

I think it was one of the junior members of Bush's entourage that said, Europe doesn't get it, America is not Europe moved west, we don't want to be Europe, we fought wars not to be Europe, we are not Europeans who are too lazy to go home, they are what we call Canadians. Most of Rumsfeld's 'Old Europe' does get it, though Rumsfeld's 'New Europe' doesn't get it yet, they still think the US presence in Europe is benigh but they are still drunk on the fall of the USSR and don't realize it is impossible for the US presence to be benigh with a rightwing President in the Whitehouse. Britain doesn't get it, it thinks because Britain and America both speak English, they talk the same language, they don't. Any European who has spent time in America must realize America is a completely different culture to Europe with a completely different mindset.

Alliances only work if there is dialog and the dialog stopped with Reagan and reconnected with Clinton but stopped again with Bush. I don't know what hold the American establishment has over the British establishment inparticular, my guess its the amount of investment the British establishment has in the US. I doubt Britain will ever learn that friendship is a two way street, it Prime Ministers seem to find it impossible to say no to America, even when they know its in Britain's best interest to say no.

However, until there is a divorce, a normal constructive friendship can't resume. Britain is the last country in 'Old Europe' to realize that, I doubt they will ever realize that. They still think when America speaks the ame words as Britain, they both mean the same thing but they don't.


< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 2:32:00 PM >

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 2:55:10 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Carnt find much to argue with in that post except  I dont believe Europe ever thought that the Soviet Union was as big a threat as the US power elites pretended they did.
Also  I carnt see how the UK having large investment in the US, which we do, makes us craven to the US.

If the UK power elite didnt realise after Suez, when Eisenhower/Dulles kicked their arses, that the "special relationship" is nothing more than a maternal nipple which gives them  prestige and a feeling of power, then the they never will recognise it and things will go on much as they do now.
ie we humiliate ourselves before the mighty US.
The fact that for example Blair was at press conferences Bush's articulator doesn't alter the fact that the prime policy moves  come from the US and we slavishly followed.

ps I still think removing Saddam was right !

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 3:06:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Carnt find much to argue with in that post except  I dont believe Europe ever thought that the Soviet Union was as big a threat as the US power elites pretended they did.



I spent the whole of the seventies in Europe, the early part traveling and the later part working. I also traveled a lot in east Europe. The iron curtain was reasonably porous if you came from the west. The majority in western Europe never really believed Russia was the threat it was made out to be and that Russia would only react to provocation, most were more concerned with American rhetoric than Kremilin rhetoric. Everyone knew Russia couldn't rely on its allies and couldn't be sure which way they would shoot if there was a war. The paranoiafrom the Pentagon was seen as mainly for American consumption but there was always the fear that maybe the powers that be in the American elite, really believed what they wee saying.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/12/2008 3:12:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Taxicabs everywhere are more than happy to take on American tourists, but they do worry they'll get paid, what with the state of the dollar and all  .


Kittin, why is it that only those on the left try to make a mountain out of a molehill about the U.S.'s "standing" in the world?
How about the "standing" of the Czeck Rep. or,....Kuala Lampur?
Funny, they never bring up the "standing" of other countries, only the U.S., have you ever noticed that?
Why is that?
And, what can I as an American Citizen do to lower my country's "standing" in the world extra-govt even further?


popeye, these last few months American politicians and commentators have been on European TV complaining about US standing falling and losing influence in the world and hoping a new President will do something about it. As one senator said whose name escapes me, America can't claim to be the leader of the free world and wield influence it thinks it deserves when no one wants to follow it.


Meat, again, I don't want my country being the "leader" of anything!
"Influence?" What influence?
And whoever in Washington who claims that the U.S. is "The leader of the free world" needs to STFU!
Meat, those are politicians speaking who think they "speak for the people," I can assure you beyond any doubt, THEY DO NOT!!!
They don't have *PERMISSION* from The People to be going around making outragious statements like that!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/12/2008 3:15:52 PM >

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 4:05:39 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, again, I don't want my country being the "leader" of anything!
"Influence?" What influence?
And whoever in Washington who claims that the U.S. is "The leader of the free world" needs to STFU!
Meat, those are politicians speaking who think they "speak for the people," I can assure you beyond any doubt, THEY DO NOT!!!
They don't have *PERMISSION* from The People to be going around making outragious statements like that!


Popeye, America wants its troops in other people's countries and it is America wanting bases in Poland and Czech (most Poles and Czechs don't want them), NATO is not interested in the being there, nor most Europeans but politicians in Washington wanting them there. While the situation is like that, American politicians are talking on behalf of Americans.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 6:47:07 AM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:



Was Saddam Hussein truly a threat to the U.S.?



Saddam Hussein was an end to a means. That's it. It seems the powers that be decided to create a battle field and base of operations that was logistically feasable and our age old excuse for tyranny was it. War sucks, most liberal types don;t have the stomach for the hard lines and most conservatives are to afraid to offend the noise makers.

Life sucks get used to it. Truth and reality are conditional perspectives and you can deny whatever you want, whenever you want to serve your political aims. But this fact remains: people will always have something to bitch about and education beyond political rhetoric seems deniably impossible.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 9/13/2008 6:49:49 AM >

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"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 6:56:37 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Meatcleaver........... you live off selective hindsight and liberal propaganda. I used to patrol the borders in the parts of Europe where one existed and the people that I talked to there everyday seemed to like the American point of view quite nicely.

But in case you were wondering, I wouldn't have minded if we had left all of you slaves that were unable to fight, to the Nazi's. Excluding Britian and Russia of course, they fought like Warriors to defend their way, I can respect that. In the end I'm sick of consulting and protecting the rest of you.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 9/13/2008 6:57:35 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 11:09:18 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Meat, again, I don't want my country being the "leader" of anything!
"Influence?" What influence?
And whoever in Washington who claims that the U.S. is "The leader of the free world" needs to STFU!
Meat, those are politicians speaking who think they "speak for the people," I can assure you beyond any doubt, THEY DO NOT!!!
They don't have *PERMISSION* from The People to be going around making outragious statements like that!


Popeye, America wants its troops in other people's countries and it is America wanting bases in Poland and Czech (most Poles and Czechs don't want them), NATO is not interested in the being there, nor most Europeans but politicians in Washington wanting them there. While the situation is like that, American politicians are talking on behalf of Americans.


Meat, that's like saying that I or Seeks speak for you.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 11:18:47 AM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		He was somewhat of a threat to us. Not enough of one to invade just for that reason. But he was a very good stabilizing factor for that region. He kept Iran in check. Now that we took him out a power vacuum developed which iran is running in to fill. Evil as he was he had his sandbox and that was all he was worrying about.

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Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

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Ego sum erus.

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 5:28:32 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-fast reply-

Has anyone ever really considered that we might just have been fixing something we broke in the first place. And it started with the Shaw of Iran. First we placed that tyranical asshole in charge of that country and he managed through the lack of political institutions to hinder political growth, with this and other medevil concepts he created enough hate and discontent that it made the religious fantatics appear a step up. Hence distabilizing the region. To offset this power shift our Shadowgenken then assisted the second great asshole into power, Saddam. It's like a matchmaking of sorts and we sucked at it. I have always hoped that it was Bush's true intent that we help the Iraqis to become their own masters.

I know this might seem far fetched but it seems about time we helped some country in this region that has economic ability of its own to start empowering the people, educate them beyond religious ideology, fanatical rhetoric and a maintained ignorance. Create an ally and not a puppet. If we never helped move people beyond the ideas that bread the terrorists then this story will never end. The attacks would always be in the plans and the "holy wars" will live on forever. Why do you think the radicals over there fought so hard to stop Iraq being "Westernized" as they see it. Sure you can always shout it's all about oil, that may be it part and partial, but I hope that there is a bigger motive at heart.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 5:38:06 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		Tal bull

About 60% of the money we lend to third world countries goes into the hands of the dictators we set up. But that country as a whole owes the money not the dictator. I have heard some wonder why we don't want to spend money on our own but will give it to others. The simple answer is gain. Having a dictator set up in other countries means our country gets it's way. Get's to get rich off their land and resources. A knowledgeable public might understand enough to have a problem with this situation.


_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 5:41:01 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Was Saddam Hussein truly a threat to the U.S.?


Isn't that kind of like asking "Can you kill yourself with yogurt?"

Answer:  Yes....but it's not terribly likely.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 5:45:52 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
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From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		There has been are large increase in yoghurt related deaths.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 9/13/2008 5:47:09 PM >

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RE: Was Saddam Hussein a Threat to the U.S.? - 9/13/2008 8:33:14 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Look for the upcoming "Yoghurt Crime" legislation.



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