RE: Effective Gun Control in England

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Real0ne -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 2:17:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darias quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave With so much corporate influence in the US something is not quite right. I dont think you have quite arrived at government by the people for the people. well gw's geneality can be traced right on back to england as can many other of the worst presidents we had. The reason i state it as such as the presidents who were the worst being defined as those who did the most damage to the constitution. forgive my ignorance but ... the UK is the reason Americans picked sucky presidents ? how does that work then ? Irish so Im neutral in this whole American UK thing well it has to do with the rothschild, astor, morgan, warburg thing...

Real0ne -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 2:32:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: redsky i just dont see the point in owning a gun in the UK, i mean growing up in 'rural' usa we used them for hunting & protection, but here really theres no need. maybe i have a 'simple' way of looking at it but what do we hunt here (UK)? nothing, apart from eachother! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6383911.stm

NorthernGent -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 4:04:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: redsky i just dont see the point in owning a gun in the UK, i mean growing up in 'rural' usa we used them for hunting & protection, but here really theres no need. maybe i have a 'simple' way of looking at it but what do we hunt here (UK)? nothing, apart from eachother! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6383911.stm From a bullet point in the link: In 2005/2006, the number of gun murders fell by more than a third from 78 to 50 I honestly can't see why 50 gun murders is a reason to hold "a summit on gun crime". It's just pandering to, and playing on, society's fears of a gun crime epidemic (unfounded as per the stats). Who gains from this? Only a political party who are trying to create a climate of mistrust in order to introduce DNA databases and ID card schemes. I'd be very interested to understand whether or not there is a pattern in the background of the 50 murderers. The answer to the problem could well lie in this pattern.

redsky -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 4:13:53 AM)
Isnt there usually an 'underlying' factor in a murderers background? or am i wrong? im not saying for a minute that all abused kids (mental or physical) turn out to be the evil of the earth, but im sure i read somewhere that murderers have usually had something or someone bad in their life during their most impressionable years growing up. i dont think id cards or dna database is a 'clever' idea, i reckon thats just a way to make it easier for the government to keep tabs on everyone, which - im sorry - but i disagree with totally, we lose all our rights as human beings? citizens? next they'll wanna watch us all wipe our asses!

LadyEllen -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 4:27:20 AM)
NG - yes there is a pattern in the shootings as well as the gun incidents we have in that the bulk of them, certainly in my region, are about drug gangs' rivalry with one another. After that we have the usual assortment of people who for whatever reason just go off the rails totally and do something daft, and the odd would be bankrobber - usually ill educated and caught within a week. The drug gangs are mainly AC and Pakistani in origin. But it would be wrong to make some racist point or to rail about immigration regarding that since it is a result of other forces that these communities find themselves well represented in these terms. Coming from different cultural backgrounds, there is however a commonality in their criminality in that in these communities we find a very high level of dissatisfaction with the way that Britain works, which is expressed at the lower level in disinterest and at the more extreme by outright refusal to take part in normal society and even to undermine it where possible and replace it with a society more to their liking. It would be easy to become Daily Mailesque at this point and advocate shooting the lot of them. But is this not just another example of what happens when a society like ours becomes so fragmented, and some find themselves for whatever reason unable to take part? When I say whatever reason, generally I'm thinking of a combination of racist attitudes directed at these communities and also the general attittude of these two communities that in taking part they might be succumbing to a society which is deeply flawed by comparison to their own. E

NorthernGent -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 5:26:20 AM)
I'd be really interested to see the breakdown of the gun crime stats. The popular conception is that the shootings are normally carried out by ethnic groups and this may be true. I genuinely don't know. What I do know is I live on the Manchester/Salford border and there's a part of Salford (called Broughton) where a couple of shootings have taken place recently - white kids and drugs related. I think you're spot on. The root of the problem is a sense of alienation from British society and you're quite probably right with the reasons underpinning this: 1) A sense of second class status - white and ethnic groups. Our society is increasingly measured by wealth and status and if people feel cut off from the ability to achieve these, then they'll form a sub-class and choose their own indicators of success outside of the rule of law. 2) Loss of indentity. If the minority feel they do not belong in the country they live, then how can they have any sense of identity? It's like a rudderless ship. I agree with the central point of your other thread. There needs to be a common thread binding us all together, and it needs to be something more than consumerism.

Vendaval -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 8:45:11 AM)
Lady Ellen and Northern Gent, In studies of the immigration patterns in the US, a common scenario is that the first generation immigrates and works very hard for survival. Their children, the second generation, have trouble adapting to the mainstream society and that is where the majority of the trouble happens. I highly recommend a researcher and author named Ronald Takaki for a better understanding of immigration in America. http://www.ascd.org/ed_topics/el199904_halford.html http://www.hachettebookgroupusa.com/authors/93/192/index.html http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/002-8453486-8240834?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Ronald%20Takaki

NorthernGent -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:06:04 AM)
Vendaval, Very interesting. I haven't read your links, but this is exactly what has happened here with the Asian community. My take on it is this: the immigrants retain the identity of their homeland. The second generation have no links to that land, except through their parents. They are British, by all intents and purposes. The problem is that Britain treats them as second class citizens. Thus, they find it difficult to identify with Britain - the result being lack of identity, alienation and anti-social behaviour. If I get time, I will certainly read your articles.

Vendaval -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:09:24 AM)
You are welcome, NG. Hope that research can shed some light on the problems in the UK. Lady Ellen mentions "AC" gangs. What ethnic group is that?

Real0ne -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:47:48 AM)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=387271&in_page_id=1770&ct=5 http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page63.asp http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page66.asp http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita now according to this one its 25% LOL per capita its roughly the same as the us, ah make that 60ish% the us

NorthernGent -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:58:59 AM)
What is? gun crime? crime in general? By the way, you've just quoted the equivalent of fox news. According to the daily mail and associates, we're all going to die unless we lock up anyone walking down the street without an ID card. For the record: The US has a higher rate of murder and rape than Britain (per head). Britain has higher rates of other crimes such as burglary.

Real0ne -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 10:04:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent What is? gun crime? crime in general? By the way, you've just quoted the equivalent of fox news. According to the daily mail and associates, we're all going to die unless we lock up anyone walking down the street without an ID card. For the record: The US has a higher rate of murder and rape than Britain (per head). Britain has higher rates of other crimes such as burglary. violent crime in general on these last ones from the last site: US = Murders with firearms (per capita): 0.0279271 per 1,000 people UK = Murders with firearms (per capita): 0.00102579 per 1,000 people now i read further and see that some people are commenting as to the accuracy of the reports on this last one... it does seem pretty high for the us http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm now according to the dept of justice firearm deaths are .00028 here based on a 300million population not sure where to go for that in the uk... looks like they had their decimal point off on that nations site

NorthernGent -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 10:27:52 AM)
Real0ne, not sure what we're trying to prove to each other here. Let's just say we have a lot of criminals!

Real0ne -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 10:32:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Real0ne, not sure what we're trying to prove to each other here. Let's just say we have a lot of criminals! nothing just throwing up data to talk about... unfortunately that nations site seems way off so we cant go by it. maybe you know what dept in the uk to get the data from? here is is the dept of justice so i went on their site to get accurate fiream deaths on the average since 1993ish and that is .00028 per capita. maybe someone else can find good numbers from the uk? that comes out to about 300 per million people if i did my cipherin right. where i live it is about 1/2 that roughly.

LadyEllen -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 12:03:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval You are welcome, NG. Hope that research can shed some light on the problems in the UK. Lady Ellen mentions "AC" gangs. What ethnic group is that? Hi V AC = Afro Caribbean. I use AC as a shorthand, not because I cant type it in full without 5 runs at it, honestly! E

seeksfemslave -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 2:42:14 PM)
Must mention this, on File on Four tonite, BBC radio 4 I caught the last 7/8 mins of the programme and it was about zero tolerence approach to crime in Manchester NH .ie in the US. Right at the end a comment was made about the districts of Moss Side and Wythenshaw in Manchester ie in the the UK. This city dont forget is NG's paradise on Earth. where all live in Peace and Harmony and Contentment. From the programme I paraphrase......the above areas are characterised by major gun crime , gangs, violence and general anti social mayhem and despair.. We, the presenters of the programme, asked two high level government spokesmen to comment but both were too busy. I think I am right in being able to say and enjoy it, I TOLD YOU SO. QED. This programm is available on the web and I especially recommend NG gives it a listen !

Jack45 -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 7:28:10 PM)
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - -Mahatma Gandhi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Thomas Jefferson quoting criminologist, Cesare Beccaria "If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money that it values more, it will lose that too. -- W. Somerset Maugham [On ancient Athens]: In the end, more than freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for most was freedom from responsibility then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again. -- Edward Gibbon Liberalizing concealed carry laws won't lead to a return to the Wild West -- though it wouldn't be bad if it did. ... in 19th Century cattle towns, homicide was confined to transient males who shot each other in saloon disturbances. The per capital robbery rate was 7% of modern New York City's. The burglary rate was 1%. Rape was unknown. -- David Kopel - quoted in the Wall Street Journal, February 28, 1994 in "Have Gun, Will Eat Out" Do you trust the government? Does the government have guns?

MasterC46910 -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:02:21 PM)
Ok, after reading a bunch of this, I will state my opinion. I am a gun person, I carry most every day. I have many firearms because I enjoy making little holes in paper targets. The smaller the group of holes, the happier I am. The only people that really push and hail gun control are criminals and cowards. Criminals because it makes their life chosen job much safer and cowards because they faulty believe it will make them safer. I carry a gun for the same reason I carry a first aid kit and insurance. Just in case. I take a first responsed course every year to keep current, as I also take training and practice with my firearm. Most law enforcement departments are doomed to a budget. Some police officers do practice on their own and learn to be proficient with the tools they carry. Many more can not affort this and only rely on the minimum training that their department can affort. Which one is showing up for your desperate call for help? It has been proven so many times that gun control does not defer crime. The highest crime areas are the ones with the most restrictive gun controls. Criminals are going to attack the easy victims, the unarmed, weak and helpless. How many genocides have been committed to unarmed people in the last fifty years? How many have been done to armed people?

MasterC46910 -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 9:06:22 PM)
Almost forgot, England is not a firearm based society? Some of the finest firearms have came from England for years. They had and still have some of the finest firearm makers in the world. It is always nice to be knowledgeable about your own country.

MstrTiger -> RE: Effective Gun Control in England (3/27/2007 10:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jack45 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." - -Mahatma Gandhi, "Gandhi, An Autobiography", page 446 Ermmmm no I think it was starving 2 million Indians to death just to keep corn prices at an acceptable level, if India had been full of guns during the hand over and its separation from Pakistan I think significantly more people would have been massacred in the streets during that religious civil war thing they had.

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