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RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/24/2007 11:04:28 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

I had posted proof that the other side "Islamic terrorists" use religion as a basis for extermination of the west. This is unrefuted.
As for the US or its allies commiting genocide, I would again say show me some kind of proof... where we wipe out a people based on thier ethnicity, its not like we dont have the capability. In fact they only example of genocide that the US commited can be found here in the CONUS against the native americans. But that was a long time ago. and not relavent to present day.
We could have wiped out every living being in Iraq if we had a desire too.
But the point was to allow the people there to control thier destiny.
The biggest mistake was in the assumption ( which is the mother of all f@ck ups) that the Iraqi's would embrace democracy immediately, and throw off century's of ethnic warfare.

Because they use the religious angle for declaring war, (Jihad), makes it no less valid as that is the way they interpret it. There is a deeply rooted legitimate religious angle to all this that i posted several times which for all intents and purposes went ignored by most people here. That would have helped everyone better understand where these people are coming from. Correctly imo. Dont forget it was bush who first stood up and spouted that we were going to hunt down evil, and the evil just happens to be muslims

As far as giving them democracy? Do you think they are that stoopid that they cannot see what we are "REALLY" offering them is slavery?

Just because we as a nation are so programmed by spin and traditional ignorance of what a real republic democracy is and have over the course indoctrinated to this way of life as a result of losing our will to fight the government what have to offer tham hardly fits the label of democracy. It better fits the label of corporate slavery and they know it!

They are fighting against invaders on their turf. We parked our asses on their turf first not the other way around.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/24/2007 11:06:56 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/24/2007 11:10:29 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dogthing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,,1773106,00.html
Summary: The US paid to have a couple of hundred thousand Kalashnikovs shipped into Iraq by various indirect routes and nobody seems to know how they entered the country, or who got them.

For me, well i am such a trusting guy. i think our government woudl never do ANYTHING against its own people, but then on the other hand it is a great way to extend the war and of course extended war is mo money for the corps. One thing for sure... you can bet the cia doesnt know anything about it.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Post #: 42

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 4:48:36 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

I had posted proof that the other side "Islamic terrorists" use religion as a basis for extermination of the west. This is unrefuted.

Hey, Sternhand, just because people don't reply to your posts doesn't mean your opinions are in tune with reality.

This extermination of the west, I'd be interested to see your proof and understand just how widespread these notions are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

As for the US or its allies commiting genocide, I would again say show me some kind of proof...

You're never going to get proof. There is no document stating that religious genocide, or any other type of murder for that matter, is being committed in Iraq. It is a matter of opinion based on the available facts. As always, some opinions are built on stronger foundations than others. It's up to you to form your opinion and go with it, but shutting the discussion down by yelling "no proof" smacks to me of sticking rigidly to a preconceived notion. Have the discussion, discuss the concept and the ideas, the available facts and then form your opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

where we wipe out a people based on thier ethnicity, its not like we dont have the capability. In fact they only example of genocide that the US commited can be found here in the CONUS against the native americans. But that was a long time ago. and not relavent to present day.
We could have wiped out every living being in Iraq if we had a desire too.

The world is a different place today. We have standards and legislation around human rights that didn't exist 300 years ago. The US government could not just wipe out Iraq - they will never do this because they would lose any respect in the world and bang would go all of their trading agreements, thus having an effect on the economy which would ultimately result in the current government being voted out of office and losing their power (which is everything to them).

Imperialism is conducted by stealth today. Invasions are dressed up in notions of threats, freedom and liberty....but take away all of the opinions and all of the spin and there are two unmistakable facts (feel free to dispute them):

a) A government's army is killing people. You may argue that so are terrorists, which of course they are. Which comes first though - state interference in a sovereign nation or terrorism? What is really at the root of all of this?

b) The chaos in Iraq began when the government's army landed on their doorstep - this was the catalyst for the spiral of chaos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

But the point was to allow the people there to control thier destiny.
The biggest mistake was in the assumption ( which is the mother of all f@ck ups) that the Iraqi's would embrace democracy immediately, and throw off century's of ethnic warfare.

Sternhand, maybe you genuinely believe that your government is driven by a desire to make everyone free. I'll throw in an obvious flaw in this line of enquiry - your government doesn't even want you to be free, never mind people thousands of miles away. If they are concerned with freedom and civil liberty, then where has The Patriot Act come from? and what about the phone tapping? and what about taking the DNA of anyone arrested (regardless of whether or not they have committed a crime) - all of this is taking your freedom from you and this is being done by the very same government who you believe is spreading freedom elsewhere.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/25/2007 5:05:58 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 12:25:22 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

A theory can exist as a theory, because it can be proven to by theoretical. Gravity can be proven to be a theory. We know that some force must exist, and theorize that it's gravity.

At this point, we can theorize that we are completely jacking this thread.

Incorrect, caitlyn.

It can be experimentally proven that objects fall towards the center of their mass.

Gravity is a theory that attempts to explain why. As theories go, it is lovely and can be used for many things. It cannot, however, be reconciled with the rest of quantum mechanics.

Matter has all sorts of properties.

Quantum mechanics is a theory used to account for this behavior.

Quantum mechanics and gravity cannot be reconciled.

My point was that gravity may be incorrect and objects fall towards the center of mass as being caused by the earth sucking.

Sinergy

p.s. We are jacking this thread. This is not a theory. A theory is an explanation as to why we are jacking this thread, or the thread jacking behavior.

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Post #: 44

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 5:39:35 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

But the point was to allow the people there to control thier destiny.

How on earth are you allowing people to control their own destiny by imposing your value system upon them?

Market democracy is simply an idea. Whether or not it is better than the next idea is open to debate, but, regardless, imposing your idea on them is a form of control.

At it's core, this is in a similar vein to communism. They imposed their value system on countries, you impose your value system on countries. Where is the difference? We could get into a discussion over the merits of communism and market democracy, but it's not relevant here. Leave sovereign nations to do their own thing rather than attempt to control them by imposing your view of life.

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Post #: 45

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 6:33:10 PM

Sternhand4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

But the point was to allow the people there to control thier destiny.

How on earth are you allowing people to control their own destiny by imposing your value system upon them?

Market democracy is simply an idea. Whether or not it is better than the next idea is open to debate, but, regardless, imposing your idea on them is a form of control.

At it's core, this is in a similar vein to communism. They imposed their value system on countries, you impose your value system on countries. Where is the difference? We could get into a discussion over the merits of communism and market democracy, but it's not relevant here. Leave sovereign nations to do their own thing rather than attempt to control them by imposing your view of life.

There is a lot of room to debate on wether the US and some of its allies should have gone into Iraq ( your posts show a no vote and mine would differ but thats anoother thread )
We are there, and after taking out the current leadership, your left with a choice. Install a goverment of our choosing ( henceforth refered to as the puppet ) or allow the residents to write their own constitution. The iraqi's did infact write thier own constitution.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/12/AR2005101201450.html

This is evident because if we wrote it you wouldn't find this ..
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

We dont have an official religion.

The Iraqi's in fact adopted this constitution by a public vote.
In comparison to the forming of the US they are much further along than we were in the same time period.

The question from your comment is was this imposed?
Essentially we broke it and now we have to allow the people there to chose a path. Was the path guided, I'd say sure but once we leave they can always change again.
The US and it allies dont attack countries just for fun or because we disagree with how thier run ( CUBA MEXICO etc ) and if you want to debate that just start another thread.
On a side note what is the reaction there as to having your sailors held by Iran? I mean as a guy on the street reaction...
Thanks

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Post #: 46

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 7:09:24 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

your left with a choice.

I am?

quote:

Install a goverment of our choosing ( henceforth refered to as the puppet ) or allow the residents to write their own constitution. The iraqi's did infact write thier own constitution.

Incorrect. The "puppet" wrote it's own constitution.

quote:

This is evident because if we wrote it you wouldn't find this ..
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Islam is more than a simple religion, Sternhand4. It is a way of living and life, and includes aspects which specifically state that what is involved in governing muslims and that the government of man is at a lower level in the heirarchy than Islam. There is no separation of the chuch of Islam and the "state."

The sentences you quoted make no sense when viewed from a muslim perspective.

quote:

We dont have an official religion.

Official religion is a construct of Western culture. Again, the concept of an "official religion" is not something a follower of Islam can understand.

quote:

Essentially we broke it and now we have to allow the people there to chose a path. Was the path guided, I'd say sure but once we leave they can always change again.

So lets leave and let them change it.

Problem solved.

Of course, them changing it will probably result in the establishment of a militaristic muslim state which stretches from the shores of the former Isreal all the way to Pakistan.

But according to your post, they have the government they chose and they can change it if they like.

So why exactly are you promoting we stay there any longer?

Sinergy

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Post #: 47

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/25/2007 9:58:19 PM

caitlyn

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We better be careful, or some moderator might jack us up ...

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Post #: 48

RE: Security Council Approved Iran Sanctions - 3/26/2007 12:29:18 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

In comparison to the forming of the US they are much further along than we were in the same time period.

It's a completely different situation. The US government is bent on imposing market democracy in Iraq, well, actually US corporations is probably more accurate. They aim to create a marketplace friendly to US interests and this is in a similar theme to decades of US foreign policy. It's economic colonisation dressed up as the spread of democracy. Any Iraqi constitution is secondary to this primary aim of imposing a value system.

In reality, they have unleashed the fundamenalist elements in Iraq and the Middle East. It is simply a power struggle between fundamentalist US values of a market driven society versus fundamentalist Islamic values.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

The US and it allies dont attack countries just for fun or because we disagree with how thier run ( CUBA MEXICO etc ) and if you want to debate that just start another thread.

No one attacks anyone for fun, they attack for gain.

Consider this paradox, some argue the US wants to give freedom to the Iraqis, yet they're imposing their Western values upon them - how can it possbily be that imposing a way of life equates to self-determination?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

On a side note what is the reaction there as to having your sailors held by Iran? I mean as a guy on the street reaction...
Thanks

There's another thread about this somewhere. I haven't read much news lately, but the normal British media reaction is diplomacy. The left and right will have a difference of opinion over the root causes and the solution. Ultimately however attempting to impose upon people is a recipe for disaster - Britain and Europe should know more than most.

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Post #: 49