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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 7:53:38 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Do you know the difference between the current military strategy and the strategy before Petraeusr?  You see any of the lessons learned?

I wasn't convinced we could "win" before Petraeus, although I thought it would be a disaster to leave.

Now, I'm confident we can win.  The only thing stopping us now is .... people like you, and the "get out now" Dems.

FirmKY



and I am going to tenaciously hold my opinion, win what? nobody is holding you up, I will point out that the dissent was not even calcuable at the beginning, and only started to groundswell when certain truths started to come to light.

OK, I fuckin' give up you guys, WIN WHAT?

Ron


uhhh ...  the insurgency?  A peaceful and stable Iraq?  Removal of the majority of American troops? 

You didn't really read the article, now did you? 

FirmKY


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 8:04:49 AM   
domiguy


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What part of the article...Or which article...The one that said we have fucked up the rebuilding of Iraq...Or the one where the Prime Minister almost got blown to little nasty bits?.....Again I'm still wearing "My country went to war in Iraq and lost over 3,000 soldiers and sustained over 20,000 wounded and all we got was this stupid t-shirt."

What am I missing?  In regards to this article?

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 8:12:35 AM   
domiguy


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Firm hand...Realistically don't you ever get tired of having to defend an administration that seems incapable to judge anything correctly?

It's one thing to want Iraq to be a peaceful nation (wishful thinking) It's quite another to continually post and always have to make excuses or make assumptions on what the intent of our actions actually were....Why not say "put a fork in it...And hopefully we won't screw up so bad next time."

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 8:23:28 AM   
mnottertail


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That war is an extension of political means....quote by Clausewitz?

OH, you mean the part where he turns around the point that Algeria had gained self determination, but that wasn't really what it was all about.

Or maybe going having a little goat eye sandwich with the locals after we have blown the shit out of their house and killed their neices and nephews.....

Insurgents do not belong in this conversation. I come over to your house and try to slap some sense into you, you are gonna fight back, even after you have wised up to the fact that you are wrong, you still want me out of your house. 

Or the fact that we have identified pink zones over there?  Logical extension of the puce and chartreuses we are using for our home grown terror levels. Any fuckin garbage man in Bagdad coulda told you the number of garbage bags full of bodies they pick up in the street prewrapped that not all was fine in never never land.


And since he likened some things to Vietnam and also said the Iraqi forces are coming in and helping share their burden..........Let me tell you something about the ARVN that is true of these guys, any fights come and one of two things happen, they either were on leave or they crept over to the other side.   

Nope, after that I kinda skimmed the shit.  Cause I am sick of typing, I prefer very short answers.

Ignorance and inaccurate  is no excuse to try and build further on it.

I think that if we would have said oh, shucks, no WMD...and left we would have won.
I think if we would have been content to bring the horrific despot Saddam Hussien (who is the only one over that way that ever cakked a hundred thou cause they pissed him off) to justice,  or in all the world, we would have won.

Nobody signed on to bring American Democracy to that toilet, they will not accept it.   

So, when you tell me what winning is, because there is always something more, every time you draw the line in the sand, and it gets scope creep, and you stick to it. 

Bring Democracy?  OK, tell me what's the agenda hiding after that, when Haliburton is moving into the area.

Clever but inescapably unsound arguments are not really worth, it is just the power to talk.

So, I wonder who Petraeus is having for dinner, after reading clauswitz (I know that guy went to war college, hell even I did) and only just now drawing unsound conclusions from Vietnam and Algeria........which, as we see, all did fine after we left them the fuck alone, and quit dictating policy to them.




Ron

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 8:37:47 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm hand...Realistically don't you ever get tired of having to defend an administration that seems incapable to judge anything correctly?

It's one thing to want Iraq to be a peaceful nation (wishful thinking) It's quite another to continually post and always have to make excuses or make assumptions on what the intent of our actions actually were....Why not say "put a fork in it...And hopefully we won't screw up so bad next time."


domi,

You must not be reading all of my posts.  I don't defend the Administration against everything and all comers.  I actually don't particularly LIKE Bush and a lot of things he has done.

But fair is fair.  When a lot of posters simply pile on because they hate him with a burning passion, and don't bother to engage their brains before they open their mouths ... then it's open season as far as I am concerned.

Just a reiteration of some of the things I don't like about Bush and Co:

1.  He has never veteod a spending bill.

2.  He passed the current Bankruptcy laws.

3.  He's a "big government" Republican.

4.  No Child Left Behind - increase government into an area where it shouldn't be.

5.  He doesn't know how to play to the media, nor use his bully pulpit effectively.

6.  He's a wimp, in not making principled stands against the Dems, except for the war.

7.  He fails in his responsibilities to defend our borders, and curb illegal immigration.

There's more, but just off the top of my head, those are the ones that stick out.

What I do support him on, is on the war, and on all the BS partisan crap that you guys give him, when he doesn't deserve it, or when you'd give a more ideological "friendly" politician a pass.

FirmKY


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 9:02:47 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

A peaceful and stable Iraq? 



Take Russia in the 1990s.

It was pretty much the same scenario as Iraq today, ultimately ending in failure. The West, led by the US, tried to instill alien values overnight in an attempt to open up Russia to liberal democracy. What did officials term it again "shock tactics" or something. Anyway, the place descended into chaos. The experiment failed and Russian nationalism under Putin came to the fore in response to chaos. The Russian people turned away from democracy and chose order, because they did not want the economic chaos where oligarchs basically took the piss. Iraq is a carbon copy. The result will be the triumph of fundamentalism because the Iraqis will feel democracy has failed them - they will turn to order for the answers.

If I were a betting man, I would bet my house that "you" have already lost. Any chance "you" had to install genuine democracy has gone because the US and British governments aren't interested in genuine democracy - they're interested in creating a marketplace friendly to US and British interests. Islamic nationalism is on the rise and the pull of order will win the hearts and minds of Iraqis, as it will prove far more attractive than the chaos and uncertainty of market democracy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Removal of the majority of American troops? 



Considering American troops weren't there in the first place, I'm not sure how you can conjure up a win from this.

No troops in Iraq 2001, no troops in Iraq after they pull out. Same thing, ain't it?

It comes back to this: it doesn't matter how good you believe your system to be, or how bad you believe the other idea to be, you have to let people plough their own furrow rather than attempt to impose your values upon them. It's a recipe for trouble. Your corporations and government see it as an investment, paid for in blood and tax, from which they expect a return, but even if it comes off, most of you ain't getting a cut.


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 9:31:15 AM   
domiguy


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Ok ...But when one looks at this war...It just seems that there is just one mistake after another of either faulty info...Not understanding the Iraqi people...Troop deployment...The tenacity of the enemy...The prospects of a civil war...Possibility in the future not meeting troop requirements...The threat of Iran....The length of the war....The strength of the coalition (A rediculous term to begin with)...How are we supposed to pacify a region that has always had such  contempt for fellow countrymen?...on...and on...and on.

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 9:35:24 AM   
mnottertail


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But this isn't a matter of the administrations fault, or Geo Bushes incompetence---
C'mon---

The guy at homeland security---
Rumsfield---
Gonzalez---
Condie---
(Colin Powell who was finally fed up with the bullshit)

oh, never mind---let us win, it's working I tell ya!!!!



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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 10:32:09 AM   
domiguy


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I agree throws off t-shirt that says "My Country went to war in Iraq lost over 3000 soldiers and 20,000 wounded and all we got was this stupid t-shirt" And tosses it into the fire....runs down to Army enrollment office and signs up....Rethinks position...Think I will go walleye fishing in Canada for a few years...Till this thing blows over...

Good luck,    I've got your back.  (The drag screams as Domiguy battles yet  another three pound walleye to submission and a democratic lifestyle in lieu of  "terrorists.")

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 12:07:39 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm hand...Realistically don't you ever get tired of having to defend an administration that seems incapable to judge anything correctly?


Begs the question of whether somebody who defends an administration that is unable to judge anything correct is capable of judging anything correctly either.

This is the person who argued with me most of last night that I was a member of the US militia, despite being unable to provide any sort of evidence to support his claim that a US militia even exists.

Sinergy

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 12:38:18 PM   
popeye1250


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Firmhand, Bush is a Republican?

As for Iraq it's simple.
"Here's the keys to your new country, enjoy."

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 2:48:46 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firm hand...Realistically don't you ever get tired of having to defend an administration that seems incapable to judge anything correctly?


Begs the question of whether somebody who defends an administration that is unable to judge anything correct is capable of judging anything correctly either.

This is the person who argued with me most of last night that I was a member of the US militia, despite being unable to provide any sort of evidence to support his claim that a US militia even exists.


Sinergy,

Your ablility to judge facts is demonstrably weak.  I've pointed out several instances where your statements don't match the facts, and provided reliable sources and cites to refute your supposed "facts".

You are so far from being able to recognize anything approaching a "fact", that it almost unsporting for me to continue to joust with you. 

You've given up actually even attempting to provide sources, it seems, as you seem to realize how it makes you look when you are challenged.

Such as this time:

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

And this will be entirely Bush's fault?



Bush ordered the Fed to cut interest rates dramatically, causing an increase in the number of refinances and a dramatic increase in the cost of homes.

So yes, it would be his fault.  Thank you for asking.

Sinergy


Well, Sinergy, I think we've been down this road a few times already.

You have any proof that Bush "ordered the Fed to cut interest rates dramatically"?  I'd be very highly interested in seeing any proof you could offer to substantiate this claim.

FirmKY


I was more than willing to let it go.  No since in beating a dead horse to death, but you obviously interpret my amity as weakness.

So .. put up or shut up, please.

As for your inability to understand plain English, and the words and cite from Title 10 of the US Code, well, if you have the ability, just go ahead and google the subject.  Shouldn't take more than 10 seconds to find plenty of other people who disagee with you.

It seems, however, that not only are you no longer even trying to source your outrageous claims when I call you on them, not only are you taking the tack of simply dismissing demonstrable facts, but you have further decided to simply deny that any such "fact" exists.

Playing Ostrich really doesn't make you a better debater, or look more erudite or polished.  It simply exposes another aspect of your 5th grade debating techniques.

Below is one of the (at least three) times I provided you either a link, or a verbatim quote of the law.

Go ahead.  Check it out, and tell me I made up the General Printing Offices electronic website, and that it a bogus source.  I'm afraid that you'll likely be the only person who will think that, but *shrugs* if you wish to continue to make yourself look foolish - who am I to prevent you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The militia exists.  Always.  Whether or not it is called up for active duty is another issue.



Your assurances that something is true is really not worth the paper they are printed on.  Please provide the source material stating an unorganized militia exists.


Militias

You do know how a url link works ... right?  If so, then you'll notice this is the exact link I gave you in my first post on the subject.

Ignorance of the law doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you.

FirmKY



So, my friend, as you occasionally say .... have a nice evening. 

FirmKY


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 2:50:59 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Firmhand, Bush is a Republican?


He plays one on TV.

FirmKY


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 4:23:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Ok ...But when one looks at this war...It just seems that there is just one mistake after another of either faulty info...Not understanding the Iraqi people...Troop deployment...The tenacity of the enemy...The prospects of a civil war...Possibility in the future not meeting troop requirements...The threat of Iran....The length of the war....The strength of the coalition (A rediculous term to begin with)...How are we supposed to pacify a region that has always had such  contempt for fellow countrymen?...on...and on...and on.



War Unwinnable In Face Of Renewed German Offensive

December 17th, 1944

PARIS (Routers) Long-time critics of the Roosevelt administration declared themselves vindicated today, as the Germans began a renewed offensive yesterday in the Ardennes Forest in Belgium, opening a huge hole in the "Allied" lines and throwing back troops for miles, with previously unimaginable US casualties.

Early yesterday morning, eight German armored divisions and thirteen German infantry divisions launched an all-out attack ...

...

By any reasonable and objective standard, it was an utter military disaster for the "Allied" forces.

It all came as a complete shock to the Roosevelt administration who, rumor has it, had been informed by the head of OSS that the imminent collapse of the German army was a "lead-pipe cinch." This only confirmed reasonable pre-election suspicions that the administration and General Eisenhower were operating on flawed intelligence, and led the nation into an invasion of Europe on clearly false pretenses.

This new setback came amidst continuing problems with the new government in France, installed by the "Allies." Many consider it a puppet, lacking legitimacy, and it has proven itself inept. The situation is chaotic, and "President" De Gaulle has shown himself to be unable to control food riots, or prevent the commission of massacres of former regime loyalists and the German troops who had supported the overthrown legitimate Vichy government. Though elections are promised sometime in the future, there is widespread doubt, given the infighting between FRLs, communists, and Gaullists, that peaceful and orderly elections can be held any time soon or that civil war can be prevented.

Many have pointed out that the troop strength on the continent has been inadequate since the invasion at Normandy last June, and that this only confirmed that. In addition, they say, it didn't help that, due to incompetence at the highest levels, up to the newly installed Secretary of War Hull, many troops died as a result of our own bombs.

"They ignored our warnings about getting embroiled in a quagmire here, and this campaign has been a disaster, from the hundreds killed in training, to the thousands who died on the beaches in France," said an anonymous State Department source. He continued, "We've also shamed ourselves before the world with our reckless policies and atrocities." In the wake of all this, some, off the record, are suggesting that it's time to consider impeachment of the recently reelected president.

Back in Washington, despite lofty rhetoric from the White House about the "liberation" of Europe, many had always been skeptical about the prospects for defeating Germany. As they correctly point out, the Germans are after all defending their homeland, and no matter how bad the alleged depravations of the Nazi regime, all familiar with the German character know that they can be depended on to fight to the death against any foreign invader, no matter how well intentioned. Many of the German dead or captured for the past few weeks have been adolescents, some only fourteen or fifteen years old, with dead, untrained yet willing hands clinging to their rifles. Seeing such images of dedication to the cause, it's difficult for many to believe that victory is possible.

As a result, the new setback has renewed rumbling among some that the time has come to seek an accord with the Nazi regime that could allow a withdrawal from Europe with honor, and not lose any more American troops in a hopeless cause, let alone bog them down for an unforeseeable period of time. "It was Japan that attacked us, not Germany," pointed out a Senate staffer. "We need to focus our resources on the true enemy in the Pacific."

Some staffers on Capitol Hill implied that the timing itself of the offensive was suspicious. "Hitler wanted Roosevelt to be reelected, so that he could continue to fight a war against a sick, senile incompetent. Had he started this offensive before the election back on November 7th, everyone would have seen what a disaster this president has been on foreign policy, and Hitler would have had to confront a young, vibrant Tom Dewey."

Others, representing moderate Democrats, seemed resigned. "We're stuck with a stubborn megalomaniac who's eventually going to have us at war with the rest of the world. How long will our Russian allies put up with this kind of behavior? How can we found or host a 'United Nations' when we ourselves are the author of so much aggression?"


Read the other articles linked to in the body of the "news report".

FirmKY


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 4:51:21 PM   
farglebargle


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Instead of wriggling on the hook, and whining about why Bush CAN'T deliver the goods, perhaps there should be more effort into wining, given that he's got a limited amount of time.

He's had FOUR YEARS already. How much more time does he think he'll need?

The other option is that he's JUST NOT ABLE TO DO THE JOB.

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 7:19:02 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

He passed the current Bankruptcy laws.


I know this is off-topic, but why don't you like the bankruptcy law?

I don't know much about it.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/26/2007 7:30:22 PM >


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 7:59:30 PM   
mnottertail


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Regards the Paris Reuters.


I had no idea that our rhetoric had lost that one, but I couldn't read anymore right now, since I obviously been some remiss in my Heil Hitlers, so I gotta get that homework done first.

Ron


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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/26/2007 8:27:56 PM   
domiguy


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Firmhand...this is part of the problem....We are fighting a war unlike any other....We were not  trying to win the hearts and minds of the Germans. We knew where they were and we knew exactly where they were from...And we knew who they were..(Uniforms)....And in the end they surrendered.

Now take the war in Iraq...We are not just fighting al qaeda...We are fighting Muslims who don't want us there..We are fighting Sunnis and Shias ...They don't have the decency to wear a uniform. We are trying to make a "way of thought" surrender...Wre don't even exactly know who we are fighting....It is called "The War on Terror"
But I think even you would agree for the most part we are not fighting terrorists.

So how do we actually get to "mission accomplished?"   If the Iraqi's were so intent on obtaining this "freedom"...Why in the past year have one quarter of the middle class population fled this country....Maybe they know something we don't.

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/27/2007 12:31:21 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Firmhand...this is part of the problem....We are fighting a war unlike any other....We were not  trying to win the hearts and minds of the Germans. We knew where they were and we knew exactly where they were from...And we knew who they were..(Uniforms)....And in the end they surrendered.

Now take the war in Iraq...We are not just fighting al qaeda...We are fighting Muslims who don't want us there..We are fighting Sunnis and Shias ...They don't have the decency to wear a uniform. We are trying to make a "way of thought" surrender...Wre don't even exactly know who we are fighting....It is called "The War on Terror"
But I think even you would agree for the most part we are not fighting terrorists.

So how do we actually get to "mission accomplished?"   If the Iraqi's were so intent on obtaining this "freedom"...Why in the past year have one quarter of the middle class population fled this country....Maybe they know something we don't.



An astute observation.

The West is attempting to impose a Western ideal of liberal democracy. Why would the Iraqis automatically accept this when they have a culture that is not based around a work ethic and materialism? They are being asked to forget everything they know and cherish, and who is to say the Western way is better anyway?

WW2 was largely conventional warfare i.e. subjugate them by force as opposed to flood the country with a Western ideal and hope they come round to the Western way of thinking. It must be obvious they're not interested. It has simply served to unleash Islamic fundamentalism. The key point isn't that people are particularly predisposed to fundamentalism, it is that people are predisposed to order, and liberal democracy can't offer order in the short term - it will be an oligarch situation, money being syphoned off etc, as per Russia. In the short term, Iraqis will view liberal democracy as being akin to chaos. Ultimately, it won't get past the short-term because of the pull of order via nationalism.

Another way to look at this is to put the shoe on the other foot: what would you say if a ME army landed in the US and said "right, that's it.......camels, sand and Allah from now til the end"? You'd dispute their wisdom and take up arms.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: CNN-"Iraq: Transition of Power" - 3/27/2007 12:56:44 AM   
FangsNfeet


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Why are we still calling it The War In Iraq?

The war or phase one of taking out Saddam was easy. Phase two, The Occupation of Iraq, is where the BS is at. How many more occupations do we need to have before Uncle Sam realizes that the Military is not a police force nor are they peace keepers?

These police and peace keeping policies is where many things are going wrong. Let's just allow the millitary to do what they were train to do.

When a bullet is fired, shoot misiles and bombs where it came from. It does not matter if the shot came from a home, business, or Muslim Temple. When the enemy attacks, fire back and blow them and there location off the map.
Both the citizens of Iraq and terrorist forces where under the bruit terror of Saddam for many years. It's come to be they only way the understand things. So let's speak the languge to show that we really mean business. Otherwise, we'll continue to deal with this occupancy crap for another five years. 

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