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RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 12:48:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK Here is my theory. I hear a lot about doormat sub/slaves but the way that I see it is that there is a big difference between a doormat and someone who is submissive. Ok here is how I see it. A sub/slave is a person who wishes to give up controll to the one that owns them and to those that their owner wishes them to. A doormat is a form of emotional disfunction or disturbance, a doormat is someone who allows others to take advantage of them allowing people to use them even when it isnt emotionaly healthy or good for them to give what ever it is they are giveing. The main difference as I see it is one can be a sub/slave and be very emotionaly healthy, one cant be a doormat and be emotionaly healthy for beeing a doormat is a symptom of emotional instability.

Now these are just my thoughts and opinions and I would like to hear what others think on the subject.

Magik's slave
 

this slave's opinion is that not many refer to themselves as doormat, it is generally someone else doing the "name-calling" in a derogative way as a holier-than-thou judgement about someone else's expression of their personality.  this slave has heard vanilla wives do the same thing referencing other vanilla wives, except the derogative name called is usually "slave", and they are referring to a woman who submits to her husband completely, which they also deem "unhealthy".
 
this slave resembles a doormat and doesn't see the term as derogatory in spite of the way others intend it.  doormats are useful, sometimes colorful, dependable,sturdy and have very few limits, if any.  around holidays, they can be festive and inviting.  sometimes, they make us smile with a witty remark, but they always have their own special place to be, a job to do and are ready and waiting to serve.
 
at present, this slave is an owned doormat~Master decides who will use her, how and when.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 12:53:09 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


this slave resembles a doormat and doesn't see the term as derogatory in spite of the way others intend it.  doormats are useful, sometimes colorful, dependable,sturdy and have very few limits, if any.  around holidays, they can be festive and inviting.  sometimes, they make us smile with a witty remark, but they always have their own special place to be, a job to do and are ready and waiting to serve.
 



lol, i like this definition!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:01:17 PM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		Where i come from calling all males 'sir' and all females 'ma'am' is as natural as breathing.  The way i was raised it was considered good manners to offer food, drink, assistance, and favors to those one meets.  It was considered good manners to defer to men and elder women.  i have never been accused of being a 'doormat' because i never let people take advantage of my good manners (at least not more than once). 

Sometimes people get 'submissive' and 'bottom' confused and assume that being submissive to someone automatically refers to sexual service or bottoming in BDSM activities.  Submissive means to surrender to the authority of another.  So i am submissive to my boss, i am submissive to law enforcement, i am submissive to my parents to one degree or another.

What bothers me personally is the number of self-proclaimed submissives who are actually hostile toward the thought of fetching and carrying for anyone other than their Dominant.  Many proclaim they will only submit what they want, when they want and under their conditions or not at all.  To me that is not submissive, that is bottom.  And there's not one darn thing wrong with being bottom.   Not all submissive behaviour needs to be sexual, gosh darn it.  i may be a dinosaur but i don't think it diminishes me in any way to use good manners, show hospitality or offer to get my boss or co-workers a cup of coffee, to bus the table in the cafeteria, or be of general service to others. 

In the wolf pack all wolves are submissive to the Dominant male and female but they do not breed with either.  The submissive wolves hunt, feed and serve others in the pack for the peace, harmony and well being of the entire pack.  And it would be a mistake to assume any wolf is a harmless 'doormat'.


_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:02:23 PM   
coffindigger


Posts: 6
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline 		i would love to throw my two cents in. here we go. i believe i am submissive only to my daddy. i do not feel a neeed nor do i have to submit to any man but my dom. i am not a doormat. no one tells me what to do but him and i believe if they do then they are way out of line and has disrespected my dom and then becomes personal that my dom will then take care of tha situation from there. i have a dom that protects me and punishes me but all out of love and would never make me do things that are harmful or that will break my spirit or break me as a person and strip me of being who i am. but he is tha only one i anwser to. and tha only one who punishes me. i belong to him alone and as far as doormats i believe it is lack of respect towards their dom from tha submissive to submit to another man. if her dom has collared her and she submits to another man i believe she should be punished so that she will not make tha mistake of forgetting her place again. k i'm done

< Message edited by coffindigger -- 3/26/2007 1:09:59 PM >

(in reply to Viridana)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:04:36 PM   
WilliamWizer


Posts: 223
Joined: 3/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

this slave has heard vanilla wives do the same thing referencing other vanilla wives, except the derogative name called is usually "slave", and they are referring to a woman who submits to her husband completely, which they also deem "unhealthy".


THAT is a lesson we must all remember.

_____________________________

There's only two rules for a sub:
- she can do anything her Master didn't forbid her.
- she only needs to do what her Master told her to do.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:18:51 PM   
StellaByStarlite


Posts: 790
Joined: 2/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tricia

I’m your typical wall flower.  I’m quiet. I’m shy.  Easy going.  At times, submissive to the world.  I don’t turn heads.  I don’t draw attention.  People would describe me as a ‘nice girl.’  Nothing more.  Nothing less.
 
I’m comfortable with me.  I don’t need to make an impact on the world.
 
A doormat?  Perhaps by some standards.  The difference between myself and what I would consider an unhealthy person is I have the intelligence to realize when I’ve been used or walked all over or taken advantage of.



Well said, tricia. =) And very honest.

(in reply to tricia)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:42:55 PM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
this slave's opinion is that not many refer to themselves as doormat, it is generally someone else doing the "name-calling" in a derogative way as a holier-than-thou judgment about someone else's expression of their personality.  this slave has heard vanilla wives do the same thing referencing other vanilla wives, except the derogative name called is usually "slave", and they are referring to a woman who submits to her husband completely, which they also deem "unhealthy".
 
this slave resembles a doormat and doesn't see the term as derogatory in spite of the way others intend it.  doormats are useful, sometimes colorful, dependable,sturdy and have very few limits, if any.  around holidays, they can be festive and inviting.  sometimes, they make us smile with a witty remark, but they always have their own special place to be, a job to do and are ready and waiting to serve.
 
at present, this slave is an owned doormat~Master decides who will use her, how and when.


Well beth...You and I have a differing opinion of a doormat for sure.
I don't see you as a doormat. Partly this is because I don't see people in general taking advantage of you or brow beating you, but more because I don't see Merc as a Evil Selfish Task Master.
I think every thing Merc asks you to do has great care and consideration by him as to weather or not this thing he asks is healthy for you and for him.
I just don't see him wiping his feet on you and walking over you without considering the fact you're there to clean his shoes at that time.
I just don't see Merc as a self serving selfish ass with blinders on who does not care about your wants, needs, desires, and mental frame of mind.
I think he builds you up in his leadership, not wears you thin and leaves crap all over you clogging up your usefulness.
I just don't equate you with what I think a doormat is in my mind.
suzanne

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 1:59:35 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: coffindigger

i would love to throw my two cents in. here we go. i believe i am submissive only to my daddy. i do not feel a neeed nor do i have to submit to any man but my dom. i am not a doormat. no one tells me what to do but him and i believe if they do then they are way out of line and has disrespected my dom and then becomes personal that my dom will then take care of tha situation from there. i have a dom that protects me and punishes me but all out of love and would never make me do things that are harmful or that will break my spirit or break me as a person and strip me of being who i am. but he is tha only one i anwser to. and tha only one who punishes me. i belong to him alone and as far as doormats i believe it is lack of respect towards their dom from tha submissive to submit to another man. if her dom has collared her and she submits to another man i believe she should be punished so that she will not make tha mistake of forgetting her place again. k i'm done

Yes, you're the type of sub/slave I'm talking about.  Do you have any twin sisters? Cousins or good friends like yourself.  LOL...

(in reply to coffindigger)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:02:44 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

this slave resembles a doormat and doesn't see the term as derogatory in spite of the way others intend it.  doormats are useful, sometimes colorful, dependable,sturdy and have very few limits, if any.  around holidays, they can be festive and inviting.  sometimes, they make us smile with a witty remark, but they always have their own special place to be, a job to do and are ready and waiting to serve


Wow! Thank you for this!

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:03:52 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone
Greetings
 
I grew up knowing that my rightful place was 'behind the men' so to speak. I was taught that women deferred to men in all things. It is something that I am comfortable with and have no desire to change. It is what has shaped my personality. Yes, I defer in all things to those who I see as superior to myself. I do it without thought. Whats more, it is a behavior that I have no desire to change. I am submissive to all, at all times, in all ways. However, this does not mean that I am walked on, taken advantage of, used, abused, ignored, etc etc. It simply means that for myself, I know my place, and it is not out in front gathering attention. If this makes me a doormat, then all I can say is that I make one heck of a doormat; and I proudly display it for all to see.


I don't view you as a doormat, this has more to do with male vs. female power I believe.   I tend not to view D/s according to gender however, so this is where we only differ.  Deferment! that magic little word, key element not to be confused with submission. 

(in reply to jauntyone)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:10:16 PM   
WhiplashSmile


Posts: 1472
Joined: 6/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer
have you ever hear about the term "kajira" or read any of the Gor books? a kajira obeys any free (man or woman) that orders her anything unless of course her own master says otherwise.
while it may not the same as being a doormat your comment can be applied to both. are you saying then that all kajirae aren't healthy? hope not.

Please dont even get me started on Gor!!!
Magik's save


Think then my first order to her, would be obey nobody else except for me! Tell all the other free (men and women) to take this issue up with me, if they have a problem with it.   The sub/slave should be treated as mine not theirs.  Damn, if I were a Character in a Gor Novel, I'd want to be the ONE that builds an Army of Slaves to conqueur that world.   Think I'll start on my rough draft tonight.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:42:56 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		well, I have stated my oppinion before and recieved a bit of hatemail, but I shall state it again for it bares on the conversation at hand.  MagiksSlave, I see your point, and partly I agree.  There is a point when one has to think of their needs.  I think that one thing that many forget is that the sub isn't the only one with responsibilities in the relationship.
I am a strong believer in the fact that to call one's self a submissive, they must be willing to submit.  This means respect for their Master and for anyone else their Master orders that they respect.  In a proper M/s relationship, this works perfectly because the slave is following the Master's orders and the Master is making sure that the slave is safe and secure.
A submissive or slave has only one responsibility.  Just keep Master happy.  Do what makes Master smile.  This responsibility is nothing for a submissive because knowing that her master is happy should already bring a really good feeling to her.  It's in her character to want to serve, and knowing that it's making her Master happy should overjoy her.
Master has a responsibility to.  Master must make sure that he never asks to much.  He should never push his submissive to the breaking point and should never deny her the basics of her survival.  It's up to him to keep his submissive healthy.  That the trade off.  He takes on the responsibilities of care in exchange for the convenience and pleasure of a submissive.
I was told today that my oppinions make me an ass.  I said simply this.  It is for a submissive to submit.  A submissive who says she will not submit is like a cook who says that he will not prepare food.  It's common sense.  I'd rather be an ass then an idiot.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:45:06 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

OK Here is my theory. I hear a lot about doormat sub/slaves but the way that I see it is that there is a big difference between a doormat and someone who is submissive. Ok here is how I see it. A sub/slave is a person who wishes to give up controll to the one that owns them and to those that their owner wishes them to. A doormat is a form of emotional disfunction or disturbance, a doormat is someone who allows others to take advantage of them allowing people to use them even when it isnt emotionaly healthy or good for them to give what ever it is they are giveing. The main difference as I see it is one can be a sub/slave and be very emotionaly healthy, one cant be a doormat and be emotionaly healthy for beeing a doormat is a symptom of emotional instability.

Now these are just my thoughts and opinions and I would like to hear what others think on the subject.

Magik's slave
 

this slave's opinion is that not many refer to themselves as doormat, it is generally someone else doing the "name-calling" in a derogative way as a holier-than-thou judgement about someone else's expression of their personality.  this slave has heard vanilla wives do the same thing referencing other vanilla wives, except the derogative name called is usually "slave", and they are referring to a woman who submits to her husband completely, which they also deem "unhealthy".
 
this slave resembles a doormat and doesn't see the term as derogatory in spite of the way others intend it.  doormats are useful, sometimes colorful, dependable,sturdy and have very few limits, if any.  around holidays, they can be festive and inviting.  sometimes, they make us smile with a witty remark, but they always have their own special place to be, a job to do and are ready and waiting to serve.
 
at present, this slave is an owned doormat~Master decides who will use her, how and when.


I believe this is the best definition of that position I've seen since I started on this site.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:47:03 PM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

It is for a submissive to submit. 

Greetings
 
but what of those whose nature itself is one of submission. They do not go from dominant to dominant and 'submit' each time. This is something that is ongoing with them, allways, 24/7/365; whether they are with someone or not.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa

(in reply to Aslanemperor)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:47:09 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 


....duh!   

(in reply to Aslanemperor)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:52:43 PM   
Aslanemperor


Posts: 108
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliamWizer
have you ever hear about the term "kajira" or read any of the Gor books? a kajira obeys any free (man or woman) that orders her anything unless of course her own master says otherwise.
while it may not the same as being a doormat your comment can be applied to both. are you saying then that all kajirae aren't healthy? hope not.

Please dont even get me started on Gor!!!
Magik's save


Think then my first order to her, would be obey nobody else except for me! Tell all the other free (men and women) to take this issue up with me, if they have a problem with it.   The sub/slave should be treated as mine not theirs.  Damn, if I were a Character in a Gor Novel, I'd want to be the ONE that builds an Army of Slaves to conqueur that world.   Think I'll start on my rough draft tonight.


Someone already tried that one.  His name was Xerxes.  Remember him?  Got his army of over 300,000 slaves trounced by Alexander's 10,000 Greek soldiers.  Yeah...

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:59:24 PM   
VeryMercurial


Posts: 620
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		Beth, you hit it on the nose.  I rarely hear of anyone calling themselves a "doormat".
It is usually used by other people as an insult.
You explained this very well.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 2:59:41 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		suzanne,
Responding to this is more difficult than I thought and will be long I'm sure. First, I am responding only to your references to me. beth speaks for herself, without censorship, and without content guidance or restriction, at all times.

As I noted elsewhere today, I am suffering and enduring "SsS" (Sick slave Syndrome). But I don't believe anything that beth posted was the result of her being sick or influenced by medication.

quote:

Well beth...You and I have a differing opinion of a doormat for sure.
I don't see you as a doormat. Partly this is because I don't see people in general taking advantage of you or brow beating you,
Part of beth's point, I believe, was how perspective influences definition. To many, beth defines "doormat" and her picture is next to the dictionary definition. I love her reference to the "vanilla" housewives looking down their nose at woman who serve and honor their husband with something as small as asking if he needs his drink refreshed. beth always likes exploiting that perspective, when the opportunity arises, by increasing her level of "service" to me. beth is proud of her service and I am very proud of her. Also, it is very difficult when you try to insult someone intending to name-call using "doormat" and in response they say; "THANKS!" Usually they don't believe you are a doormat anymore and instead believe you are just a crazy lunatic. 

quote:

 I don't see Merc as a Evil Selfish Task Master.
If anyone is going to take advantage of beth it will be ME! Permission by me is required for anyone else to do so. Since I AM selfish, it is rarely given. You'll have to take my word regarding the "task Master" aspect. I'm a sadist "task Master" with subtle signals given to beth very often regardless of setting or company. There is also the constant "tasks" beth endures or enjoys - again depending upon perspective.
quote:

I think every thing Merc asks you to do has great care and consideration by him as to weather or not this thing he asks is healthy for you and for him.
beth is my most precious of possessions. As such there is great care and consideration for her at all times. But she is a possession. I take that aspect quite seriously as does beth. There is fear in my mind and, illustrating beth's influence - my 'soul' at the thought of losing beth, therefore everything has consideration of her health and long term well being.  
quote:

I just don't see him wiping his feet on you and walking over you without considering the fact you're there to clean his shoes at that time.
Our entire relationship can be summarized by "consideration". My "shoes" were and are "cleaned" by beth every day. Taking a different perspective, you can say that I also "clean" beth's. The shoes are an appropriate analogy. We both needed and wanted our "soles/souls" cleaned by a person we could trust to do so without judgment. 
quote:

I just don't see Merc as a self serving selfish ass with blinders on who does not care about your wants, needs, desires, and mental frame of mind.
Well, I already covered the selfish part. "Ass" again is a matter of perspective. All the physical references to wants/needs/desires, come under the heading of FUN! We are VERY fortunate that we have common "FUN" interests and complimentary compatibility to "FUN" activities. The "frame of mind" comes from literally constant ongoing communication and the confidence that nothing can ever be said by the other that would change our fundamental feelings toward each other or the fundamental dynamic of our relationship. It is a very important point because what ISN'T said CAN easily be a cause for losing that common "frame of mind". Time builds confidence, which increases trust. Self awareness is key. When appropriate I don't ask beth to "give up" any past. I insist she "go deeper" into herself during the experience, and in turn I learn and also go a step further down the path.
quote:

I think he builds you up in his leadership, not wears you thin and leaves crap all over you clogging up your usefulness.
beth would never refer to herself as a "leader" or "strong" but she is the strongest woman I ever met, and anyone interested in becoming fully immersed in any form of service would we wise to follow her example. However, beth had all the skills, intellect, and ability when we met. she was also spread thinner than gold leaf by a number of people who took advantage of her. It is her nature to serve. Unfortunately it is human nature to take advantage of a person of a serving nature. Some of her old friends and family resented that all of a sudden all her service was dedicated to one person and as a result abandoned her. Now she gets her strength from me and I allow no one to spread her thin. I am her focus in life, but that doesn't represent a true picture taken as a stand alone statement. The focus is reciprocal and more than just a "focus".

In many regards, Merc died when I met beth. Similarly I think so did Elizabeth. There was no beth before because that was my name for her and one she didn't particularly like. There is no experience I can imagine enjoyable without her with me to enjoy it. There is now "Mercnbeth". Mercnbeth is "served" by both of us.

quote:

I just don't equate you with what I think a doormat is in my mind.
But some do. Speaking as I think beth would, the point is "so what!" Out of the abused and trashed image associated with the word - beth found beauty and purpose. Next time someone tosses a name at you that you find or feel derogatory try and turn it around in the same way and let the name caller walk away shaking his/her head.  

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/26/2007 3:09:03 PM >

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 3:56:43 PM   
raevnn


Posts: 152
Status: offline 		The word 'doormat' is akin to the word 'needy' within BDSMland in the fact that a lot of people really dislike the word, some don't care either way, and very few will admit to actually being either of those words. Personally, neither of those words bother me.

For the most part (unless I'm having an 'omg i cannot make myself do this' moment), I do whatever my owner wishes, without question. I don't do that for anyone else. And I am needy. If I was not needy, my owner would not feel loved or needed, which he likes very much. I can take care of myself, but I love him and therefore need him.

So I'm a doormat and needy! ;)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Doormats - 3/26/2007 5:09:37 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jauntyone

I grew up knowing that my rightful place was 'behind the men' so to speak. I was taught that women deferred to men in all things. It is something that I am comfortable with and have no desire to change. It is what has shaped my personality. Yes, I defer in all things to those who I see as superior to myself. I do it without thought. Whats more, it is a behavior that I have no desire to change. I am submissive to all, at all times, in all ways. However, this does not mean that I am walked on, taken advantage of, used, abused, ignored, etc etc. It simply means that for myself, I know my place, and it is not out in front gathering attention. If this makes me a doormat, then all I can say is that I make one heck of a doormat; and I proudly display it for all to see.
 
Master enjoys this personality trait of mine. It is not something that he said 'you will be this way and this way always'; I was this way when he met me, and from all accounts, he is quite happy with me this way.
 
So yes, I am submissive to all; in every way, 24/7/365. Not because Master says I must be; but because it is within my nature to be so.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa


It is an interesting thing...perspective and semantics.  The type of woman you describe above...defers to men at all times or to those she feels are superior...is the type of woman I consider as being courteous and somewhat "traditional" in her behavior.  But in my world, this is an attitude of respect and deference, not submission. 

People say set aside the sexual aspects of submission...alright, let's do that.  You say that you are not just courteous and deferential and respectful but "are submissive to all, at all times, in all ways".  Does this mean that another has the same level of control over you in every other way except BDSM play or sexual play?  That if I were to become friends with you and your Master because we live in the same town and you both come to respect me and I come to respect the two of you that I could then expect you to incorporate my thought processes into your own?  My desires and wishes would become just as important to you as your Master's?  That I could suggest to you that you could do something in a different way than what you are doing it now and you would then change your ways because I told you to?  That I could tell you that I prefer that when you are spending time with me without your Master that you wear red and you would do so?

Not trying to flame you nor even argue with you.  As I noted in my first line, perspectives differ.  Semantics differ.  I am trying to get clear in my head whether or not your definition of submission to all is what I would call deference and respect and courtesy to all but stopping short of submission, which in my world means incorporation of My thoughts, My feelings and ideas, processing those and responding accordingly; it means yielding control to me such that your yielding of control over you to another would be at my behest, not at your own.

(in reply to jauntyone)
Profile   Post #: 60
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