Neocons better STFU and get to work! (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 4:21:21 PM)

Y'all got a year to fix Iraq.

"Senate signals support for Iraq timeline"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070327/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq;_ylt=Ahg5q1to9UcQF_GA.cWEfmCs0NUE

Now who was saying that it would NEVER get past the Senate?





cyberdude611 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 4:58:06 PM)

Like I said, this is NOTHING but the Democrats trying to make their left wing activists happy. The President is going to veto this and the congress does not have the votes to override. So the bill is already dead. It's a waste of time. And this is what the Congress has been working on for the past 3 months? A bill that they knew damn well the President would veto and knew they didn't have the votes to override? It's partisan politics. That's all it is.




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 5:14:02 PM)

It's a signal. Bush needs to either shit or get off the pot.

He's had FOUR YEARS to dicking around and it's time for him to buckle down and get serious, or just admit he isn't up to the job.

And he's got more important things to worry about than HIS POLITICAL POSTURING.

Bush is already cost us enough lives and money with his incompetence or unwillingness. Well, here's the damn money. MORE DAMN MONEY... Here's the additional troops. Now do the damn job, or fucking resign and let someone else clean up your damn mess.





cyberdude611 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 5:30:43 PM)

Signal? It is meaningless if Bush vetos it. The bill is dead. In fact the GOP allowed it to pass in order for Bush to veto it and get the debate over with.




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 6:19:22 PM)

quote:


RE: House Democrats see Iraq withdrawal bill win - 3/21/2007 8:44:35 PM

cyberdude611

Posts: 305
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline

It will never pass the Senate. That's where the problem is. These bills get bogged down with all the freaky Senate rules. It doesnt take much to squash the bill. They either filibuster or destroy it with amendments like they did with the minimum wage bill.

It's not the just the GOP either. There are several Democrats in the Senate that do not want a pullout right now. So the Democrats are going to fall well short of the votes needed to stop the filibuster. This bill will never reach Bush's desk.


Not quite batting 1000 there, eh skippy?





Sternhand4 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 6:22:02 PM)

But I'd put long odds on it getting past a veto..




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 6:52:40 PM)

Just say, "Bush is holding up the funding for our troops AND doesn't want to get down to work solving Iraq", and pass the same bill again.





cyberdude611 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 7:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Just say, "Bush is holding up the funding for our troops AND doesn't want to get down to work solving Iraq", and pass the same bill again.




Meanwhile we declare to the enemy exactly what our plan is and when we are willing to forfeit.

What would happen if we had this strategy with WW2?
Should Congress have told Roosevelt, "You can have X amount of money, the war must be over in Y amont of years, and only Z amount of people can die in combat."

You can't fight a war that way...




luckydog1 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 7:12:27 PM)

Cyberdude, but you can lose a war that way, which is what farg, et al wants.




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 7:16:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Just say, "Bush is holding up the funding for our troops AND doesn't want to get down to work solving Iraq", and pass the same bill again.




Meanwhile we declare to the enemy exactly what our plan is and when we are willing to forfeit.


So you concede that Bush can't get the job done?

Because if Bush *was* a winner, instead of a Loser, he would have the job done BEFORE the deadline.

No one's saying he needs to use the whole year. I'd be happier if he wrapped this up sooner.





cyberdude611 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 7:28:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Just say, "Bush is holding up the funding for our troops AND doesn't want to get down to work solving Iraq", and pass the same bill again.




Meanwhile we declare to the enemy exactly what our plan is and when we are willing to forfeit.


So you concede that Bush can't get the job done?

Because if Bush *was* a winner, instead of a Loser, he would have the job done BEFORE the deadline.

No one's saying he needs to use the whole year. I'd be happier if he wrapped this up sooner.




You can't put a deadline on a war. You can't say we are willing to fight for another year but if we can't finish the job, we are going to give up and just come home. Do that and Iraq will fall into civil war where millions of people are going to be slaughtered. We will be back in there before the decade is out.

We also left Iraq in 1992 when the Iraqi people were ready to rebel against Saddam. We pulled out and saddam slaughtered those people. Now we are going to pull out again and break our promise to Iraq, it's people, and the world community? We have an obligation to clean up our mess. We pull out and leave with our tail between our legs, our reputation will be completely destroyed. And no population in this world would be dumb enough to trust us ever again.




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 9:38:29 PM)

If you don't set goals, how do you measure performance? Is this "It'll take however long it takes" shit acceptable in the Boardroom?



No. It isn't. And neither is Bush's performance. This is all about "Holding your Employee Accountable".

This isn't about ONE YEAR. If Bush can't finish the job in FIVE YEARS HE'S GETTING, then he's UNABLE TO DO THE JOB.

"You're Fired", "Game Over", "G'Bye!", and "Don't let the door hit you on the way out..."

Or maybe he would rather have that grand jury convened to look into that charge of 18 USC 371?




cyberdude611 -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 10:14:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you don't set goals, how do you measure performance? Is this "It'll take however long it takes" shit acceptable in the Boardroom?



No. It isn't. And neither is Bush's performance. This is all about "Holding your Employee Accountable".

This isn't about ONE YEAR. If Bush can't finish the job in FIVE YEARS HE'S GETTING, then he's UNABLE TO DO THE JOB.

"You're Fired", "Game Over", "G'Bye!", and "Don't let the door hit you on the way out..."

Or maybe he would rather have that grand jury convened to look into that charge of 18 USC 371?



Congress does not set the goals. Under the constitution, the President is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. He and his administration sets the goals. Congress has no role in war strategy. NONE! That's part of the separation of powers. If Congress thinks the president is incompetant or has failed, then they can elect to impeach him.

I also do not trust 535 politicians with war planning. That needs to be left up to the generals in the field and the Pentagon. War strategy is their job and their life's work. Let our military win this war.

Also I would like to add that Congress has proven to be nothing but a bunch of pussies. They voted for this war. They authorized this war. And now suddenly when it turns out to be more difficult than originally planned, they decide they need to get a vote against the war on record or else lose their job. To me, that just proves how much of a joke that institution has truely become. No wonder their approval rating is about as low as the President's. There is no god damn leadership anymore.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 10:18:20 PM)

Hey, FB ... can you please define a "neo-con" for me?  What do you think this strange creature is, exactly?

FirmKY




caitlyn -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/27/2007 10:51:06 PM)

If I was President Bush, I would sign it. The insurgents would probably back off, knowing that if things calmed down, we would leave on schedule, if not earlier. After we leave, they can have the chaos they desire, instead of the chaos we desire.
 
I don't agree with this war ... we should have never gone in the first place. It wasn't our last or best option. That said, I will be ashamed to be an American if we just leave, after the mess we've made.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/28/2007 12:12:07 AM)

This is what FB and his "ilk" want to prevent:

US captures car-bombing ring in Iraq

The US military has captured the leaders of a car-bombing ring blamed for killing hundreds of Iraqis.

The news came as the departing US ambassador said Americans are in ongoing talks with insurgent representatives to try to persuade them to turn against al-Qaeda.

The US command said one of the car-bombers, Haitham al-Shimari, was suspected in the "planning and execution of the majority of car bombs which have killed hundreds of Iraqi citizens in Sadr City," a Shi'ite enclave of Baghdad.

Another, identified as Haidar al-Jafar, was second-in-command of a cell that killed some 900 "innocent" Iraqis and wounded almost 2,000, the military said. Three other men believed connected to that cell also were in custody.

The suspected bombers were rounded up last week by American forces during continuing security sweeps in Azamiyah, the Sunni stronghold in northern Baghdad, the military statement said.

In a farewell news conference, outgoing US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said American Embassy and Iraqi officials had talked to people representing insurgent groups.

...


Khalilzad has said previously that US officials have met with people linked to the Sunni insurgency, and the new top US general in Iraq, General David Petraeus, said this month that dialogue was necessary because force alone cannot halt the violence.

But Khalilzad said the talks have shifted from "unreasonable demands" by the groups for a US withdrawal to forming an alliance against al-Qaeda. He said the effort has gained support among tribal leaders and even some insurgents.

"Iraqis are uniting against al-Qaeda," he said.

"Coalition commanders have been able to engage some insurgents to explore ways to collaborate in fighting the terrorists. These insurgents are also in touch with the government seeking reconciliation and cooperation in the fight against the al-Qaeda terrorists and joining the government in a reconciliation program."

...

"We have talked to groups who have not participated in the political process, who have ties with some of the insurgent groups who are reconcilable insurgents," he said.

"The terrorists are irreconcilable. There cannot be reconciliation with al-Qaeda. They have to be brought to justice, but there are groups that resisted the democratic change, the change in Iraq."

The ambassador said he was cautiously optimistic about efforts to bring stability to Iraq.

"In my view, though difficult challenges lie ahead and there is a long way to go, Iraq is fundamentally headed in the right direction and success is possible," he said, pointing to a nearly 25 per cent reduction in violence during a six-week-old security crackdown in Baghdad as well as economic progress.

Wars are often not won or lost by feat of arms.  They are won by the refusal to lose.

FirmKY




Real0ne -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/28/2007 1:51:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

This is what FB and his "ilk" want to prevent:

Wars are often not won or lost by feat of arms.  They are won by the refusal to lose.

FirmKY



This is what KY and his "ilk" want to promote:

hegemony




farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/28/2007 4:38:59 AM)

quote:


Congress does not set the goals. Under the constitution, the President is the commander-in-chief of the armed forces. He and his administration sets the goals. Congress has no role in war strategy. NONE! That's part of the separation of powers. If Congress thinks the president is incompetant or has failed, then they can elect to impeach him.


If Bush is going to try to hide behind the Constitution, then shouldn't he have asked Congress for and Act of War? You know, since only Congress can declare war.

And Congress raises Armies, so in theory, as long as you want to use the Constitution, they can just send the Army home.

You see, Bush's Job, as defined by the Iraq-AUMF is DONE. Hussein isn't a threat, there is no WMD threat. Maybe Bush needs to go to Congress, hat in hand, and ask for a Reconstruction Act if it's so important?





farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/28/2007 4:40:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Hey, FB ... can you please define a "neo-con" for me? What do you think this strange creature is, exactly?

FirmKY



Person who joined the Bandwagon to support Bush, but lack Core Conservative Values.

e.g.: The Largest Debt Ever, and The Largest Government Ever are antithetical to REAL REPUBLICANS and REAL CONSERVATIVES, but to the Neocon Party Whore, it's A. O-K!

And if your goal is to "Not Lose", you're never going to Win.





Sinergy -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/28/2007 7:58:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

But I'd put long odds on it getting past a veto..


I have a feeling that somebody from the Republican party will get Monkeyboy's daddy to get a firm grip by the short and curlies and convince him to not veto it.

Monkeyboy cannot see past his 90 day approach.  But other people in the Republican party can, and most of them know that a Bush veto will consign their party to the wastebasket of time along with the Know-Nothings and the Whigs if he does veto.

There will be somebody Monkeyboy respects enough who can tell him his game is over.

Sinergy

p.s. interesting article in Rolling Stone this past issue about how the advisors and political consultants have done everything they can to destroy the Democratic party's chances of getting elected.




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