RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work!

RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 7:49:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Hey, FB ... can you please define a "neo-con" for me? What do you think this strange creature is, exactly? Person who joined the Bandwagon to support Bush, but lack Core Conservative Values. e.g.: The Largest Debt Ever, and The Largest Government Ever are antithetical to REAL REPUBLICANS and REAL CONSERVATIVES, but to the Neocon Party Whore, it's A. O-K! And if your goal is to "Not Lose", you're never going to Win. But you talk as if the definition of a "neo-con" is simply anyone who supports the war in Iraq. As does every other person I've ever seen use that term in the forums. A "Neo-con" would be a person from the Cheney / Perle / Wolfowitz / Rumsfeld clique who believe in a new American century, wherein the United States uses it's military superiority and wealth to establish a global hegemony with the United States at the helm. A sort of twisted "manifest destiny." Wherein we will send in the military to establish countries (under the guise of naming them democracies) which promote American goals. quote: It might take decades. It might even take centuries, but when it is over, the result will be something that totally repudiates large parts of the current Western, liberal tradition. Evolution in action. I am sure the USSR felt that way about Afghanistan. The thing most pro-war types seem to forget is that there is a cost for everything. The money being used to support the war has to come from somewhere. When the war started, Monkeyboy had reserves of money left over from Clinton's effective management of the economy and intelligent fiscal policies. When the war did not work out as he had hoped, he was forced to resort to borrowing money from China to pay for it. You, me, our children, etc., are going to be forced to repay that cretin's compulsive borrowing to go play in the sand. While you state that you support our war, I have yet to see you actually define what this war is actually intended to accomplish. The only thing I see this war accomplishing is a complete destabilization of an oil-rich region of the globe. The loss of any American prestige on the planet. The raping of our economy. You are absolutely right, it is evolution in action. When the New World Order means that the United States is a bankrupt shell, and 1/3 of the planet is combined under Islam, will you still be a die hard Monkeyboy's war supporter? I am happy to hear you are willing to end up roadkill on the highway of Evolution. Sinergy edited: Somebody didnt log out of my computer... (Sinergy)

domiguy -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 8:50:51 AM)
quote: FirmhandKy Millions"? Can you source that, please? quote: csmonitor and The New York Times Middle class leaving Iraq Since destruction of Samarra shrine, many Iraqis are desperate to leave the country. By Tom Regan \| csmonitor.com A few months after reports indicated that Iraqi university professors and academics were fleeing the country because of violence and kidnappings, new media reports say that the middle class in Iraq also wants to leave. The New York Times reported last week that more and more middle class Iraqis seem to be " doing everything they can to leave the country." "In the last 10 months, the state has issued new passports to 1.85 million Iraqis, 7 percent of the population and a quarter of the country's estimated middle class. The school system offers another clue: Since 2004, the Ministry of Education has issued 39,554 letters permitting parents to take their children's academic records abroad. The number of such letters issued in 2005 was double that in 2004, according to the director of the ministry's examination department. Iraqi officials and international organizations put the number of Iraqis in Jordan at close to a million. Syrian cities also have growing Iraqi populations." This alone should speak volumes about the value that Iraqi's place on democracy....And how they view the prospects or importance of success. As a person that has studied history as well as warfare....I can't recall of too many Countries that when it came to fighting for their "independence and freedom" that 25% of the middle class fled the country...With thousands more leaving by the day.....It is time to take the hint from the Iraqis themselves and get the fuck out. They just got to vote...They are so excited over the prospects of their new "Constituiton" that there are fleeing by any means possible.... Maybe all along this was our master plan...We stay a few more years with our current forces and then we can simply assume that all who remain our against us or just soooooo dumb that they deserve some dying and we go on one hell of a fucking "cleansing"....Removing anything that moves.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 8:52:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY It might take decades. It might even take centuries, but when it is over, the result will be something that totally repudiates large parts of the current Western, liberal tradition. Evolution in action. I am sure the USSR felt that way about Afghanistan. The thing most pro-war types seem to forget is that there is a cost for everything. The money being used to support the war has to come from somewhere. When the war started, Monkeyboy had reserves of money left over from Clinton's effective management of the economy and intelligent fiscal policies. When the war did not work out as he had hoped, he was forced to resort to borrowing money from China to pay for it. You, me, our children, etc., are going to be forced to repay that cretin's compulsive borrowing to go play in the sand. While you state that you support our war, I have yet to see you actually define what this war is actually intended to accomplish. The only thing I see this war accomplishing is a complete destabilization of an oil-rich region of the globe. The loss of any American prestige on the planet. The raping of our economy. You are absolutely right, it is evolution in action. When the New World Order means that the United States is a bankrupt shell, and 1/3 of the planet is combined under Islam, will you still be a die hard Monkeyboy's war supporter? I am happy to hear you are willing to end up roadkill on the highway of Evolution. edited: Somebody didnt log out of my computer... (Sinergy) Sinergy, You seem to have a serious problem in following logical trains of thought, and sometimes make statements that aren't even tangentially related to my comments or that illustrate that you have totally failed to understand what was said. You also don't absorb facts too well. It seems like you have this "pop the weasal" game in your head. You see certain words or phrases, and have an automatic response, regardless of whether or not the thoughts in your head logically relates to the intent of the discussion, or the facts. But just as long as you can express your venom in a insultingly sarcastic manner, it seems to satisfy you. Maybe that is related to why you seem to love your part time occupation of having women physically attack you, after you've insulted, belittled and degraded them? How about getting out of the "big macho caveman insults everything that moves" mode every once in a while? Maybe then, you can actually have a discussion? FirmKY

SimplyMichael -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 9:41:58 AM)
KY, Never has so much knowledge led to so little wisdom. quote: You show a basic misapprehension about war, and what I am saying. The question is: which side has the stronger will (the stronger stomach if you will) to win a war. Actually, the problem here is that you can't understand the quotes you are using and what their implication is. If you have the intellectual integrity, answer these two questions in your own words. What will we "win" in Iraq? What price are you willing to pay for that win?

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 9:53:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle The Lieber Code. Promulgated by this one of This Nation's Greatest, the 16th. Abe Lincoln. The 9 Principles of War in the Anglo world: The United States Armed Forces use the following nine principles of war in training their officers: Objective: Define a decisive and attainable objective for every military operation. Offensive: Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative. Mass: Apply sufficient force to achieve the objective. Economy of Force: Focus the right amount of force on the key objective, without wasting force on secondary objectives. Maneuver: Place the enemy in a position of disadvantage through the flexible application of combat power. Unity of Command: For every objective, there must be a unified effort and one person responsible for command decisions. Security: Never permit the enemy to acquire an unexpected advantage. Surprise: Otherwise known as "Audacity"; Strike the enemy at a time and/or place and in a manner for which he is unprepared. Simplicity: Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and clear, concise orders. Officers in the U.S. Military sometimes use the acronym "MOUSE MOSS" to remember the first letters of these nine principles.) There is a debate within the American military establishment to adopt flexibility as the tenth principle of war. In The Growing Imperative to Adopt Flexibility as an American Principle of War, Robert S. Frost argues that the concept of flexibility should be integrated with America's warfighting doctrine. Excellent article on the history and development of "Principles of War": No More Principles of War? Interestingly, you might also benefit from knowing that "war" is broken down into three major levels: The Tactical, the Operational, and the Strategic. There has been a lot of discussion about OOTW (Operations Other Than War) by a lot of names as well. Talking about the "will to win" can occur at all levels, but we are focusing primarily on the strategic levels. And, on a related topic of the "will to win", since everyone who thinks they are an expert likes to quote him ... Sun Tzu: The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the conditions obtaining in the field. These are: (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger. ... All warfare is based on deception. ... Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. ... Now the general is the bulwark of the State; if the bulwark is complete at all points; the State will be strong; if the bulwark is defective, the State will be weak. A whole army may be robbed of its spirit; a commander-in-chief may be robbed of his presence of mind. Now, if you really want to get some good reading in on the strategic level, read some Machiavelli. FirmKY

mnottertail -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 9:58:25 AM)
simply------------KU. I have said that from the outset. Ron

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:12:39 AM)
I don't dispute that some Iraqis are leaving, but your interpretation is exactly that - an interpretation. Passports do not equal refugees. The number of children might be a better indication. And, I bet if you break down the ones who are leaving, the majority will be Sunni from the Sunni Triangle area, many who were invested in beliefs about Sunni's "right" to rule or were associated with the old government. And this is actually something that needs to happen, and you might realize that if you understood the alternative, and what it requires to smother the resentments that often occur in areas of ethnic domination and exchanges of power. Kurds are returning to Iraq. Ever seen anything about how peaceful and economically strengthened their area is? Kurdistan Economy: The stability of the Kurdistan region has allowed it to achieve a higher level of development than other regions in Iraq. In 2004 the per capita income was 25% higher than in the rest of Iraq. The two chief cities of the region, Arbil and Sulaymaniyah, both have international airports serving destinations through the Middle East and parts of Europe. The government continues to receive a portion of the revenue from Iraq's oil exports, and the government will soon implement a unified foreign investment law. The KRG also has plans to build a media city in Arbil and free trade zones near the borders of Turkey and Iran. Since 2003, the stronger economy of Kurdistan has attracted around 20,000 Arab workers from the rest of Iraq to seek jobs in Iraqi Kurdistan.[20] According to Iraqi president Jalal Talabani, since 2003 the number of millionaires in the Kurdish city of Silêmani has increased from 12 to 2000, referring to financial and economic growth of the region. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:27:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael KY, Never has so much knowledge led to so little wisdom. quote: You show a basic misapprehension about war, and what I am saying. The question is: which side has the stronger will (the stronger stomach if you will) to win a war. Actually, the problem here is that you can't understand the quotes you are using and what their implication is. If you have the intellectual integrity, answer these two questions in your own words. What will we "win" in Iraq? What price are you willing to pay for that win? prostrates himself before SM's greater wisdom Oh yes, Great One, I'm so happy to see your wisdom, and the detailed response to my posts. What was that glorious analysis again? Oh ... Never has so much knowledge led to so little wisdom. Actually, the problem here is that you can't understand the quotes you are using and what their implication is. If you have the intellectual integrity ... I think you might be able to show some "intellectual integrity" if you first tell me what my point to this thread has been, rather than stunted dismissives when I nicely answer your questions the first time. Because I think you are much like Sinergy - see some words, automatically spout your emotional feelings about whatever comes first to mind. Then try to package it with something that vaguely resembles logic. Why should I spend the effort engaging you in any kind of honest debate and discussion, when you don't even know my thesis on this thread? You can't get across the river, if you don't ford the river. If you can plainly state my thesis for this part of the thread, and then tell me how my quotes aren't related to my earlier response to you (without snarky little remarks) then I'll continue an honest discussion with you. FirmKY

domiguy -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:34:33 AM)
What does any of what we are trying to achieve have to do with the Kurds? Very little fighting is going on in the Kurdistan regions...They are apart to themselves...Which also points out the problem with trying to bring a united voice to this country. In fact many Kurds support the view that they would prefer an independent Kurd state. The people fleeing the country are exactly the people that you would like to stay ...."The Middle Class" They are the stabilizing voice of any fledgling democracy ...The reference to the Kurds proves a lack of understanding about the dynamics and the makeup of Iraq and the people who live there. Firm...It is time to move on...This has been nonsense from day one...If you look at "Mouse Moss" can you honestly say that these 'principles" have been applied with any thought or success in Iraq in the four years time? I wonder how many actually apply in an Iraq type of situation to begin with? Let's attack Liberia...They have just come out of 15 years of civil war, their military has been all but decimated or disbanded...And being even darker than the Iaqis it should be easy to get a strong grass roots movement that would support their destruction....We need a swift and decisive victory to regain our swagger...lol. If I were just a few years younger I would lead the charge myself.....Onward to Liberia!

mnottertail -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:37:01 AM)
Kurdistan would like to flush the toilet on Iraq and Iran as well, been trying to for thousands of years, but there is Turkey gets a piece too. One of these days, we will hear the old refrain 'Let my people go'. Ron

farglebargle -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:47:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle I bet the 1/2 Million dead Iraqis would disagree, if there were alive to debate the issue. I thought you might like this website. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/database/ "Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports from recognized sources." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6495753.stm "But a memo by the MoD's Chief Scientific Adviser, Sir Roy Anderson, on 13 October, states: "The study design is robust and employs methods that are regarded as close to "best practice" in this area, given the difficulties of data collection and verification in the present circumstances in Iraq.""

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:55:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail simply------------KU. I have said that from the outset. KU Emptiness. According to Buddhism, the fundamental character of things is absence (or emptiness) of individual unchanging essences. The realization of the essencelessness of things is what permits the cultivation of psychological non-attachment, and thus cognitive equanimity. The direct realization of (or experience of insight into) emptiness is enlightenment. This shows up in aikido in the ideal of developing a state of cognitive openness, permitting one to respond immediately and intuitively to changing circumstances (see MOKUSO). To what are you applying the concept of "KU" to, exactly, please, Ron? FirmKY

mnottertail -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 10:59:37 AM)
IN WAR it is VOID ---- Common stone faced dont give a fuck immovable heart will to win. We ain't got it. We won't get it. How it came about is deception, which is war, and is an extension of politics which is deception. (ala von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Mushashi, Machiavelli---others) Nobody is saying anything about Afghanistan. Ron

FirmhandKY -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 11:08:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail IN WAR it is VOID ---- Common stone faced dont give a fuck immovable heart will to win. We ain't got it. We won't get it. I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment at all. FirmKY

mnottertail -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 11:15:41 AM)
In fact you support it, because it is in relation to a post you made earlier. About the will to win, and the training of officers, now if they could be as the olden times where once the order is promulgated there is no political interferance in the siege machinery------------ and in elemental war----- there is KA FU CHI SUI KU Lacking any of these you cannot win. This is one way to put it, there are others. Ron

SimplyMichael -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 11:29:44 AM)
KY, Face it, you are intellectually bankrupt! You can post half a page of quotes from Giap and others but the moment someone asks you to state your opinion about what this was is about and what you are willing to pay for that "win" you suddenly don't have time? What you don't have is a clear picture of what it is we are trying to "win" nor are you willing to state how dearly you are willing to pay for that win.

Real0ne -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 11:32:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne like i said you have no clu what i was talking about. Hell, Real, you don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Why said I? FirmKY hmm.... you are really on a roll here ky! that 2 out of 3 you acquiesced on. by all means make your case as to exactly what i am clueless about.

caitlyn -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 12:15:54 PM)
I'll answer your two question. What will we "win" in Iraq? What price are you willing to pay for that win? These are questions better asked before we went in, obviously. Had these questions been asked honestly, we would have never gone. That said, we are already there, and as such, the meaning of the questions change. What will we win? At this point, the only win available to us, is to get out and not leave a greater mess than the one we have already created. People I know honestly feel this is possible ... that one step at a time, events are playing out, as we should not just assume that those doing these bombing attacks and now chemical attacks, have unlimited resources. Part two, concerns the price. This is again, a question with different meaning, now that we are already there. At this point, the price becomes part of the obligation. We did something very foolish, that is clear. We will have to pay whatever price needs paid, or just forget looking at ourselves in the mirror. Those are my answers, from the perspective that I consider foolishly going, and what to do now, as mutually exclusive.

NorthernGent -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 1:01:52 PM)
What's to win? The win is a marketplace on board with US interests. There is nothing else in the minds of the US government and their masters. Thing is, a fair proportion of the contractors' and oil companies' profit will be pumped back into the US economy, so some will gain. Problem is, in a country of huge inequality, there will be an inequal share of the pie. Working class - fucked - will be providing some of the troops, but the pie won't channel through to them. Middle class - income will stay about the same, also providing some troops. The establishment - laughing their cocks off - providing no troops and lining their pockets. Old hat.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Neocons better STFU and get to work! (3/29/2007 1:03:22 PM)
quote: At this point, the only win available to us, is to get out and not leave a greater mess than the one we have already created. A lovely thought and one I once agreed with but Bush has made such a giant mess I don't see any hope. Now, how do you define not leaving a greater mess? Leaving an alienated Shia majority in charge alienated from both the Sunni and Western worlds provides a massive victory to Iran and I don't see any way around it, so leaving now isn't going to make things much worse than "later" quote: one step at a time, events are playing out, as we should not just assume that those doing these bombing attacks and now chemical attacks, have unlimited resources. They don't? Bush didn't bother sending enough troops or planning well enough to prevent the looting of Saddams massive arsenals, they have an unlimited supply of explosives. What they don't have can be supplied by Iran and Syria over massive borders we don't have the troops to patrol. quote: We will have to pay whatever price needs paid, or just forget looking at ourselves in the mirror. Can you tell me at what amount of dead young men and women, wearing a uniform you would never wear, that you are willing to "pay" so you can look yourself in the mirror? What level of taxes are you willing to pay to support this war? What level of debt are you willing to pass on as future taxes to your children? All so you can "look at yourself in the mirror". I predicted this mess before we invaded, it isn't a mirror I have to look into. The people who hold that mirror are the Republicans who supported this war without question, who listened to the idiocy spouted by this administration tying Saddam to AQ, saying Iraq had no history of ethnic violence, that Iraq would pay for its own reconstruction, and that we would be greeting as liberators by crowds throwing flowers. THOSE people get to look in that bloodstained mirror, not I.

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