quote:

When do you suppose we start these few hard years, and when would you predict they will end?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

When do you suppose we start these few hard years, and when would you predict they will end?

As for when to start, anytime would be good. How long would it take? Hard to say. Minimum of five years before we start to see changes in society as a whole. More likely ten to fifteen. Changes in society (either predicted or unpredicted – usually the latter) from changes in social policy take time to manifest themselves (people move at the speed of life, not at the speed of theory). It is one of the reasons we are addicted to the idea of the quick fix. For example, tax rate cuts will result in greater economic growth leading to more tax payers and hence, greater government revenue – just not instantaneously. It takes time for the extra money in the private sector to manifest itself as new investments, new jobs etc.
Would you care to give some specifics.  Everything I have ever read on this subject says just the opposite.
The only source I have ever heard this from are the uber rich who want their taxes reduced.  I just read in the news that the oil companies have billions of dollars in profits that they admit that they do not know what to do with and are casting around for some place to invest them.

quote:

Free market ... as if anything is ever free, when you are down on your luck.

The only thing that is free in life is sunlight but give them time, somebody will figure out a way to charge us for it. The free in "free market" refers to the individual’s freedom to negotiate pay for his services as well as influence the prices of things through the simple medium of choice.
Perhaps you could tell us just where this exists?
 
As for everybody else: perhaps I should have said more socialized than it already is. I still, however, have some freedom in that I can choose not to go to a doctor I regard as incompetent (if enough people agree with me, he’ll be out of business).
The big problem here is that you are prevented from disseminating this information by law.  Until the incompetent is sanctioned, which is very difficult, he can sue you for libel and slander if you speak out against him/her.
 
 Yet there are people in government (or who want to be in government) who would take away my right to choose. Instead they would prefer that the government dictate to me which doctor I can or cannot see and what I can or cannot see him for and when I can see him. I don’t want the government making those decisions for me. I can make them myself, thank you very much.
Socialized medicine does not take those choices away from you.  I have a form of socialized medicine...I use the VA for my primary care facility.  They assign me a doctor.  Twice in the past ten years or so I was dissatisfied with the doctor that was assigned to me and asked for another and had no problem getting a new doctor.  Because of the purchasing power of the federal government the price of prescription drugs is minimal.
Why would you be against paying less for medication and services?
thompson

quote:

Would you care to give some specifics.

quote:

Everything I have ever read on this subject says just the opposite.

quote:

The only source I have ever heard this from are the uber rich...

quote:

...who want their taxes reduced.

quote:

I just read in the news that the oil companies have billions of dollars in profits that they admit that they do not know what to do with and are casting around for some place to invest them.

quote:

Perhaps you could tell us just where this exists?

quote:

The big problem here is that you are prevented from disseminating this information by law. Until the incompetent is sanctioned, which is very difficult, he can sue you for libel and slander if you speak out against him/her.

quote:

Socialized medicine does not take those choices away from you.

quote:

Because of the purchasing power of the federal government the price of prescription drugs is minimal.

quote:

Why would you be against paying less for medication and services?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Well sir you have done a pretty good job of extracting from my posts only those words that you want to address and have left the complete thought on the cutting room floor.  The only ones who are getting any meaningful tax cuts are the rich and not the average person.  Taking a few hundred dollars off of a twenty or thirty thousand dollar tax bill is not a tax cut.

quote:

Would you care to give some specifics.

Specifics about what? Millions of people making personal choices over the course of their lives?
How many millions? The hundred or so million who make up the middle class or the ten million who make up the upper class?

quote:

Everything I have ever read on this subject says just the opposite.

Then you have been reading the wrong things. I recommend (once again) "Basic Economics," by Thomas Sowell.
I have read uncle Tom Sowell and he is nothing but an appologist for the uber rich.

quote:

The only source I have ever heard this from are the uber rich...

Then you need to search out more sources.
That is what I asked you for and you give me uncle Tom Sowell a mouthpiece for the rich.

quote:

...who want their taxes reduced.

Of course they want their taxes reduced. Everyone want’s their taxes reduced. Why wouldn’t they?
Some people look upon taxes as the dues that they pay to belong to a pretty exclusive club...some taxes I look foreward to paying and some others I have a bit of a problem with.

quote:

I just read in the news that the oil companies have billions of dollars in profits that they admit that they do not know what to do with and are casting around for some place to invest them.

I’m dubious about that but for the sake of argument I’ll accept it for the moment. Why can’t they find any place to invest their money (or perhaps the real question is, why don’t they want to invest their money)? What is the disincentive to invest?
You tell me I asked you the question.  You are the one who keeps saying if people have more money in their pocket they will invest it.  Well it is pretty well documented that the oil companies have reaped pretty good profits with gasoline at three bux plus per gallon...their costs have not gone up for the oil that they pump out of holes in the U.S,

As for the relationship between taxes and the economy this is how it works:

If you reduce people’s taxes they have more money to spend (they may save some of that money but saved money enters the free market as loans, i.e. capital). People spending more money means the demands for products and services goes up. In order to meet that demand, two things happen. Existing business increase production to meet the demand and entrepreneurs start new business (also to meet the demand). This results in an increase in jobs. This means two things. More people with more money to spend resulting in a yet greater increase of demand for products and services and more tax payers.
The only way you get more tax payers is more babies...the govt says the unemployment rate is less than five percent.  So full employment would raise the number of taxpayers by five percent.


Therefore, even though the government is collecting less taxes from the individual tax payers, because there are more tax payers government revenues can increase. Which would you rather be: one of a group of eighty people who pay a thousand dollars per year ($80,000.00 for the government) or one of a hundred people who pay out nine hundred dollars a year ( $90,000 for the government).
I am still unsure how you got a twenty percent increase in workers when there is only five percent unemployment.

If, on the other hand, you increase people's taxes then they will be spending less money. The demand for products and services will go down. Entrepreneurs will be reluctant to start new businesses and existing business will have to cut back production (i.e. let workers go). Some companies may go out of business. Jobs will be lost. That means more people who will be spending less money and, of course, less taxpayers (and more people seeking government services resulting in more liberals screeching for an increase of government services and the increase of taxes need to cover them).
Is it your position that only liberals seek to eat at the public trough?  I see coperate amerika (so called conservatives) taking more out of the government trough with one hand than all of the poor on welfare combined.

quote:

Perhaps you could tell us just where this exists?

It exists all around you in your’s and everybody else’s life. It exists when you go to the grocery store and decide to by brand A instead of brand B because, even though brand A cost a little more, you’ve decided it is worth it because you’ve decided that brand A is better quality. It exists when someone decided to go to gas station A instead of gas station B, even though gas station A is a little out of their way, because gas station A has cheaper gas. It exists when someone decides not to accept a certain job because they don’t think it pays enough. It exists when someone does accept a job – even if they don’t think it pays enough – because they really need a job. It exists when a company decides to give one of it’s employees a raise because they are willing to pay more (his services being deemed worth the extra cost) rather than loose him to another company. It is millions of individuals making personal choices about everything from apples to xylophones.
So you are saying that we as consumers told the grocery stores that we prefered a thirteen ounce can of coffee instead of a one pound can of coffee and that is why they changed.
That the difference of two cents a gallon of three dollar a gallon gas is incentive to drive across town.
This sort of logic may work on a nine year old but it does not float here.

quote:

The big problem here is that you are prevented from disseminating this information by law. Until the incompetent is sanctioned, which is very difficult, he can sue you for libel and slander if you speak out against him/her.

So... if I tell my sister not to go to Doctor Quack, the police are going to kick open my door. I’m not really worried. You don’t necessarily need to write a letter to the editor, word of mouth can be both the greatest and the worst form of P.R.
So now you and your sister do not go to dr quack...since the AMA limits the number of med schools and the number of graduates this is a distinction with no difference.

quote:

Socialized medicine does not take those choices away from you.

Some people’s idea of it does.
So you would be in favor of universal health care if you had a choice of doctors?

quote:

Because of the purchasing power of the federal government the price of prescription drugs is minimal.

Wrong. Government, because it can spend other people’s money at will, has no incentive to seek the lowest price. The drug companies do have an incentive to charge the government as much as they can get away with.
If this were true why is the price of drugs cheaper in Canada and Mexico.  Why are drugs cheaper at the VA?


This is the same government upon which they spend millions of dollars to elect people favorable to them. It is easier to do the wink, wink, nod, nod, with a few individuals in a bureaucracy than it is with millions of consumers. Without competition from the private sector, the drug companies have no incentive to lower their prices.
What competition from the private sector...the difference in price for drugs from costco is insignificant from the price at any other drug store.

quote:

Why would you be against paying less for medication and services?

I’m not against paying less for medication and services, but socialism doesn’t result in that. Socialism only transfers costs from one place to another. How much higher will my taxes have to be in order to pay for a government health care plan? Also, the extra layer of bureaucracy increases costs (not to mention taxes).
That is a pretty bold statement...have you really looked at the different health plans in various countries that do have universal health care.  What you get for what you pay will surprise you.
You seem to have a knee jerk reaction to the word socialism.  You seem to equate anything that the government does with socialism...what about fire and police protection sewers mail service, CDC, USCGS...There are tons of things that used to be done by private enterprise that are now done by the government because private enterprise coluded with others to fuck the citizens.  Just because the government does it does not necessarily make it bad.  I am quite aware that the government can and does fuck up but there are some things that they are, by the nature of government, make them better suited to do some tasks.   Some times it is city, county, state or fed.  That is part of being part of society.  Your libertarian point of view of individualism is just so much bullshit...there is no individual who has done a thing in the history of mankind.  Everything that has ever been accomplished has been done because one person cooperated with other people.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Oh how cute, someone took Econ 1A at a community college!

quote:

The only ones who are getting any meaningful tax cuts are the rich and not the average person. Taking a few hundred dollars off of a twenty or thirty thousand dollar tax bill is not a tax cut.

quote:

How many millions? The hundred or so million who make up the middle class or the ten million who make up the upper class?

quote:

I have read uncle Tom Sowell and he is nothing but an appologist for the uber rich.

That is what I asked you for and you give me uncle Tom Sowell a mouthpiece for the rich.

quote:

Some people look upon taxes as the dues that they pay to belong to a pretty exclusive club...some taxes I look foreward to paying and some others I have a bit of a problem with.

quote:

You tell me I asked you the question. You are the one who keeps saying if people have more money in their pocket they will invest it. Well it is pretty well documented that the oil companies have reaped pretty good profits with gasoline at three bux plus per gallon...their costs have not gone up for the oil that they pump out of holes in the U.S,

quote:

The only way you get more tax payers is more babies...the govt says the unemployment rate is less than five percent. So full employment would raise the number of taxpayers by five percent.

quote:

I am still unsure how you got a twenty percent increase in workers when there is only five percent unemployment.

quote:

Is it your position that only liberals seek to eat at the public trough? I see coperate amerika (so called conservatives) taking more out of the government trough with one hand than all of the poor on welfare combined.

quote:

So you are saying that we as consumers told the grocery stores that we preferred a thirteen ounce can of coffee instead of a one pound can of coffee and that is why they changed.
That the difference of two cents a gallon of three dollar a gallon gas is incentive to drive across town.
This sort of logic may work on a nine year old but it does not float here.

quote:

So now you and your sister do not go to dr quack...since the AMA limits the number of med schools and the number of graduates this is a distinction with no difference.

quote:

So you would be in favor of universal health care if you had a choice of doctors?

quote:

If this were true why is the price of drugs cheaper in Canada and Mexico. Why are drugs cheaper at the VA?

quote:

What competition from the private sector...

quote:

That is a pretty bold statement...have you really looked at the different health plans in various countries that do have universal health care. What you get for what you pay will surprise you.

quote:

You seem to have a knee jerk reaction to the word socialism.

quote:

You seem to equate anything that the government does with socialism...

quote:

Just because the government does it does not necessarily make it bad.

quote:

Your libertarian point of view of individualism is just so much bullshit...there is no individual who has done a thing in the history of mankind. Everything that has ever been accomplished has been done because one person cooperated with other people.

quote:


Marc2b......BRAVO, well said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The only ones who are getting any meaningful tax cuts are the rich and not the average person. Taking a few hundred dollars off of a twenty or thirty thousand dollar tax bill is not a tax cut.

You won’t get an argument from me that more tax cuts, for everyone, are needed. None-the-less, A few hundred dollars, multiplied by millions is quite a bit put back into the private sector.
No it is not it is a few hundred million on a multi trillion budget...insignificant is the word here. 

quote:

How many millions? The hundred or so million who make up the middle class or the ten million who make up the upper class?

Everybody. I find it interesting that you separate the middle class from the upper class as if they were completely walled off entities.
Yes they are...it is as simple as counting up how much money one makes.


They are not. Setting aside the question of where the dividing line is (what dollar amount constitutes the line between middle class and upper class, and who decides what that amount is?), the people who constitute these classes are not fixed there. People move in and out of classes all the time. A man at twenty years of age, just starting out in the job market and making very little might be considered poor. Twenty years later with additional knowledge and experience bringing in a higher paycheck, he might be considered middle class. Twenty years later, he may be running his own business and be considered upper class. People are not static.
If you choose to put this in grammar school analogy please do not waste anymore of my time...If we are going to discuss economice then lets do so at the same intelectual level.  It is quite uncommon for someone making minimum wage  a year or two out of high school becomming wealthy in the space of fourty years.
A person coming out of college typically will not enter the job market at the minimum wage.

quote:

I have read uncle Tom Sowell and he is nothing but an appologist for the uber rich.

That is what I asked you for and you give me uncle Tom Sowell a mouthpiece for the rich.

We are obviously not going to agree on Thomas Sowell so I’m not going to bother to change your mind but I will say this: Is it really necessary to bring a racial pejorative into this?
Not a racial pejoritive
 
 
The phrase, "Uncle Tom," is used, nastily, to refer to black people who don’t go along with what the left wing/NAACP/Democratic party line of what black people should believe.
Wrong again.  This is only your opinion.

You are, in essence, accusing him a being a traitor to his race for having the temerity to have his own opinions.
One would think that a person who is as bright as you would recognize what most educated people do...There is but one race on this planet and that is the human race.  This has nothing to do with difference in ethnicity and everything to do with a rich man's perceptiion of something he has never experienced.  Thomas Sowell is a child of priviledge.  He has always had access to the highest level of education.  In his books he takes the experience and cultural educational background of west indian blacks and translates that into the black experience in the U.S. and makes the assertion that the only poor blacks are lazy blacks.


Should race be a factor in what people should be allowed to believe? If you want to disagree with Mr. Sowell, then disagree with him, but leave race out of it.
You are the one who is trying to make a racial thing where no racial thing exists.  People like Larry Elder and Thomas Sowell are making a living by telling the white middle calss what they want to hear.  Perhaps if they lived in Compton or South Central they might have a different perspective...but they draw their paycheck from denying what is clear, for anyone with eyes, to see.
If you were to read Sowell with an open mind instead of looking for someone to substantiate your position then you might see his bias.

quote:

Some people look upon taxes as the dues that they pay to belong to a pretty exclusive club...some taxes I look foreward to paying and some others I have a bit of a problem with.

I have no objection to the concept of taxes. The government needs money to carry out it’s legitimate purposes. I do object to having to overpay a bloated, wasteful, bureaucracy that could get by on much less.
Is it the welfare for the poor or the welfare for the rich which you are against?

quote:

You tell me I asked you the question. You are the one who keeps saying if people have more money in their pocket they will invest it. Well it is pretty well documented that the oil companies have reaped pretty good profits with gasoline at three bux plus per gallon...their costs have not gone up for the oil that they pump out of holes in the U.S,

No. I said they spend it.
It was in the newspaper and on all the broadcast news that the oil companies were in a pickle as to how to spend all the money that they have just made as a consequence of the current high prices.

Investments are only part of the picture. How do you know that the costs have not gone up? The costs fluctuate every day.
Would you please document for me just what costs have gone up for the oil companies in this area?  The fact that their profits are so astronomically high are an indication that costs have not gone up.



If the oil companies are reluctant to invest their profits there could be any number of reasons.
I did not say that they were reluctant to invest their profits.  I said their profits were so great that they could not find enough investments to use them on.  At least that is what has been reported.

Perhaps excessive regulations may the investment unpalatable. Perhaps they see a downturn in the economy coming.
Which particular excessive regulation are you refering to?  Perhaps you are grasping at straws?

quote:

The only way you get more tax payers is more babies...the govt says the unemployment rate is less than five percent. So full employment would raise the number of taxpayers by five percent.

I’m sorry, but I have to say it. This is complete and utter nonsense. The unemployment rate is largely determined by the number of people who are seeking unemployment insurance and other government services.
Nope...the unemployment rate is exactly the number of people drawing unemployment insurance.  Lets not try to inject bs into this equation....with your "other government services"


It does not take into account the number of people who do not need a job, but would take one if they were available (i.e. teenagers or the housewife who, her kids at school during the day, who would like to get a part time job to bring in a little extra money).
ROFLMAO...if you do not need a job then why on earth would you take one.  I thought that was the reason people retired.

More importantly, it does not take into account the number of people who are unemployed but don’t seek out government assistance (that individualist that socialists hate so much).
You seem to be saying that you do not know what unemployment insurance really is.  Unemployment insurance is not a gift or a hand out from the government.  It is an insurance plan that employees pay into and collect on when they become unemployed.  It is not socialism.  How did you come to that conclusion?

Not everybody, when the chips are down, sits on their ass and whine about the inequities of life while waiting for Uncle Sam to rescue them. Some people actually get off of their ass and actually do something about it.
You mean the uber rich and the corporations who feed at the public trough while castigating the poor on welfare?

quote:

I am still unsure how you got a twenty percent increase in workers when there is only five percent unemployment.

That’s because you are focusing on preserving your own belief system in the face of contradictory evidence and not on the point the example I used was making. It had nothing to do with a twenty percent of anything. The point was that with more taxpayers, each taxpayer need not pay as much.
Nope...you are the one creating new taxpayers out of whole cloth, and then using these mythical taxpayers to support your point.

quote:

Is it your position that only liberals seek to eat at the public trough? I see coperate amerika (so called conservatives) taking more out of the government trough with one hand than all of the poor on welfare combined.

I’m getting sick and tired of playing this game.
If you are sick of then stop playing and start discussing.


Nothing I said could be construed as giving a pass to corporate welfare.
When you talk of giving the richest sector of our economy a tax break in the unsubstantiated belief that they will somehow magically make use of that money to make the economy thrive...and in support of that you use the fatious arguement that they will buy consumer goods which will employ etc etc etc...the fallacy of this is they already have enough money to buy these consumer goods so giving them more does nothing except allow the taxpayers who do not get a tax break to subsidize the rich and their new boat or private jet or bimbo or what ever.

quote:

So you are saying that we as consumers told the grocery stores that we preferred a thirteen ounce can of coffee instead of a one pound can of coffee and that is why they changed.
That the difference of two cents a gallon of three dollar a gallon gas is incentive to drive across town.
This sort of logic may work on a nine year old but it does not float here.

Yes, that is what they told them. Not by directly going up to the store manager and saying "gee, we would like a thirteen ounce can of coffee," as you seem to be snidely implying, but through their purchasing actions. Let’s say that a coffee company decides to market a new thirteen ounce can of coffee. Many consumers like the new thirteen ounce can and so start buying it. When the store manager looks over his sales records in preparation for purchasing new stock, he sees that the thirteen ounce cans are outselling the sixteen ounce cans and so orders more of the thirteen ounce cans and less of the sixteen ounce cans. Logical enough?
The consumer is not given the choice of a thirteen ounce can or a sixteen ounce can.  The consumer is given the choice of brand and grind in a thirteen ounce can.

Who said anything about driving across town? It could be around the block.

quote:

So now you and your sister do not go to dr quack...since the AMA limits the number of med schools and the number of graduates this is a distinction with no difference.

I look through the phone book and see plenty of doctors to choose from. Not every doctor who graduates from medical school is a quack. Some are mediocre. Some (including my own doctor) are excellent. There has been a decrease in doctors in recent years but this is due less to the AMA and more to exorbitant rates of malpractice insurance (caused in turn by ridiculously high jury awards) making the profession less palatable (screw medical school, I’ll go to law school instead).
So when a doctor amputates the wrong leg...should he be sanctioned?  Perhaps a twenty dollar fine?  Common Mark you are brighter than that.

quote:

So you would be in favor of universal health care if you had a choice of doctors?

Nope.

quote:

If this were true why is the price of drugs cheaper in Canada and Mexico. Why are drugs cheaper at the VA?

Because you are confusing prices with costs. The prices are cheaper because the costs has been transferred to someone else – the tax payers. The prices are cheaper because they are being subsidized and, like anything subsidized, quality goes out the window. The VA, as we have seen in recent news stories, is an excellent example of this.
Wrong again Mark.  The drugs at the VA are not subsidized the price is negotiated by the VA (which has a huge buying power).  Drugs in Canada are negotiated and not subsidized.  Now explain Mexico  why are drugs cheaper there...they are not subsidized so why are they cheaper.
Please tell me exactly the reason for the recent problems with the VA ...you do not seem to have a very firm grasp on just how the VA works.

quote:

What competition from the private sector...

Precisely! Competition in the private sector is what is lacking here! It is what we need!
This has been my point.  There is no competition in the private sector because the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies don't allow it...and this is the gang you look to to preserve what they do not want.  You are not making any sense here.

quote:

That is a pretty bold statement...have you really looked at the different health plans in various countries that do have universal health care. What you get for what you pay will surprise you.

What’s a bold statement? That socialism merely transfers costs? There is nothing bold about it. It is common sense. It is what socialism seeks to do (in theory, the reality, of course, is far different).
So it would appear that you feel that public ecucation is socialism.  That police and fire protection are socialism.  That public utilities are socialism.  Why is it right in one area and not in another?

quote:

You seem to have a knee jerk reaction to the word socialism.

I have a knee jerk reaction against any form of tyranny.

quote:

You seem to equate anything that the government does with socialism...

Nope. I’ve never denied that government has it’s legitimate functions but that doesn’t mean free enterprise can’t do better in most things. You talk about private enterprise colluding to fuck the citizens. Private enterprise has no citizens, it has customers. If it fucks over the customers, they’ll take their business elsewhere, or seek alternatives to the services they find they are not getting from the companies to that seek to fuck them over.
So when the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies collude to fuck over the citizen/customer who do we take our business to? 
Perhaps you should avail yourself of some reading about how different corporations and individuals did this in the past and how the government had to pass laws to restrict this sort of behaviour.  Just because the government has stopped some of the abuse does not mean that it has stopped all of it.

quote:

Just because the government does it does not necessarily make it bad.

Just because the government does it doesn’t make it necessarily good either.
Uncleear what your point is here...


Government represents a concentration of power and we all know what power does.
While you admit that there are some things that government does better than the private sector you will neither enumerate or define them but constantly and reactively claim that the government is nothing but tyrany.

 

quote:

Your libertarian point of view of individualism is just so much bullshit...there is no individual who has done a thing in the history of mankind. Everything that has ever been accomplished has been done because one person cooperated with other people.

First of all, I am not a libertarian.
Really?  Everything you have said so far comes right out of the libertarian hand book.

As for the rest, it is a straw man argument. You mis-define what an individualist is and then proceed to knock down an argument that nobody made. Nobody with an ounce of common sense defines an individualist as a wholly self-sufficient person who can get by without the co-operation of others. An individualist is a person who takes charge of their own life. An individualist seeks to make his own decisions about his life and not let others make them for him. They are a person who takes responsibility for their own actions and accepts responsibility for the consequences.
You mean like Bill Gates,Ted Turner,Donald Trumph....?


As I said earlier, the individualist, when times are tough, doesn’t whine about how unfair life is and seek to be taken care of by the government. They do something about it instead. The individualist works hard because he knows that sloth will get him nowhere.
I don't know about that.  Sloth seems to be working for the uber rich.

The individualist is not a person who gets through life not needing help now and then but he prefers to receive this help from family and friends rather than a bureaucracy.
Unlike Bill Gates,Ted Turner,Donald Trumph et al. 



Nor is the individualist adverse to helping others but he prefers to help those same family and friends first. The individualist does not mind paying taxes, he just wishes the government wasn’t so greedy for his paycheck (and so stupid in how it spends his money). The individualist is willing to play by the rules of law, civility and fair play, and to respect the rights of others, but he expects his rights to respected as he charts the course of his life. The individualist, in other words, is a free person.
Yeah right like that exist. 

This is why socialists (and any power hungry ideology) hate them so much. The individualist is a threat to the socialist desire to micro-manage other people’s lives.
You keep this knee jerk reaction to socialism going but never draw a difinitive line between what the government should do and what they should not do.  Do you or do you not have a real position or is this just rehtoric in the abstract?
thompson

I’m out of here until after Easter.

I wish everybody on CollarMe a happy Easter.

This is a rip. I’m watching Geraldo and O’Reillly getting ready to leap across the table and kill each other. [sm=biggrin.gif]

quote:

Yeah, but don't think this means we're engaged or something.

quote:

No it is not it is a few hundred million... etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi
I suppose someone who doesn't see universal healthcare as the most important thing in their lives. Not everyone thinks universal healthcare is that wonderful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I make the most wicked implements and furniture

www.torturewood.citmax.com (the site is parked there temporarily, it will be www.torturewood.com soon)

quote:

No it is not it is a few hundred million on a multi trillion budget...insignificant is the word here.

quote:

Yes they are...it is as simple as counting up how much money one makes.

quote:

If you choose to put this in grammar school analogy please do not waste anymore of my time...If we are going to discuss economice then lets do so at the same intelectual level. It is quite uncommon for someone making minimum wage a year or two out of high school becomming wealthy in the space of fourty years.

quote:

A person coming out of college typically will not enter the job market at the minimum wage.

quote:

Not a racial pejoritive

quote:

Wrong again. This is only your opinion.

quote:

One would think that a person who is as bright as you would recognize what most educated people do...There is but one race on this planet and that is the human race.

quote:

If you were to read Sowell with an open mind instead of looking for someone to substantiate your position then you might see his bias.

quote:

Is it the welfare for the poor or the welfare for the rich which you are against?

quote:

It was in the newspaper and on all the broadcast news that the oil companies were in a pickle as to how to spend all the money that they have just made as a consequence of the current high prices.

quote:

Would you please document for me just what costs have gone up for the oil companies in this area?

quote:

I did not say that they were reluctant to invest their profits. I said their profits were so great that they could not find enough investments to use them on. At least that is what has been reported.

quote:

The fact that their profits are so astronomically high are an indication that costs have not gone up.

quote:

Which particular excessive regulation are you refering to? Perhaps you are grasping at straws?

quote:

Nope...the unemployment rate is exactly the number of people drawing unemployment insurance. Lets not try to inject bs into this equation....with your "other government services"

quote:

ROFLMAO...if you do not need a job then why on earth would you take one. I thought that was the reason people retired.

quote:

You seem to be saying that you do not know what unemployment insurance really is. Unemployment insurance is not a gift or a hand out from the government. It is an insurance plan that employees pay into and collect on when they become unemployed. It is not socialism. How did you come to that conclusion?

quote:

You mean the uber rich and the corporations who feed at the public trough while castigating the poor on welfare?

quote:

Nope...you are the one creating new taxpayers out of whole cloth, and then using these mythical taxpayers to support your point.

quote:

If you are sick of then stop playing and start discussing.

quote:

When you talk of giving the richest sector of our economy a tax break in the unsubstantiated belief that they will somehow magically make use of that money to make the economy thrive...and in support of that you use the fatious arguement that they will buy consumer goods which will employ etc etc etc...the fallacy of this is they already have enough money to buy these consumer goods so giving them more does nothing except allow the taxpayers who do not get a tax break to subsidize the rich and their new boat or private jet or bimbo or what ever.

quote:

The consumer is not given the choice of a thirteen ounce can or a sixteen ounce can. The consumer is given the choice of brand and grind in a thirteen ounce can.

quote:

So when a doctor amputates the wrong leg...should he be sanctioned? Perhaps a twenty dollar fine? Common Mark you are brighter than that.

quote:

Wrong again Mark. The drugs at the VA are not subsidized the price is negotiated by the VA (which has a huge buying power). Drugs in Canada are negotiated and not subsidized. Now explain Mexico why are drugs cheaper there...they are not subsidized so why are they cheaper.
Please tell me exactly the reason for the recent problems with the VA ...you do not seem to have a very firm grasp on just how the VA works.

quote:

This has been my point. There is no competition in the private sector because the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies don't allow it...and this is the gang you look to to preserve what they do not want. You are not making any sense here.

quote:

So it would appear that you feel that public ecucation is socialism. That police and fire protection are socialism. That public utilities are socialism. Why is it right in one area and not in another?

quote:

So when the AMA and the pharmaceutical companies collude to fuck over the citizen/customer who do we take our business to?

quote:

Perhaps you should avail yourself of some reading about how different corporations and individuals did this in the past and how the government had to pass laws to restrict this sort of behaviour. Just because the government has stopped some of the abuse does not mean that it has stopped all of it.

quote:

Uncleear what your point is here...

quote:

While you admit that there are some things that government does better than the private sector you will neither enumerate or define them but constantly and reactively claim that the government is nothing but tyrany.

quote:

Really? Everything you have said so far comes right out of the libertarian hand book.

quote:

You mean like Bill Gates,Ted Turner,Donald Trumph....?

quote:

I don't know about that. Sloth seems to be working for the uber rich.

quote:

Unlike Bill Gates,Ted Turner,Donald Trumph et al.

quote:

Yeah right like that exist.

quote:

You keep this knee jerk reaction to socialism going but never draw a difinitive line between what the government should do and what they should not do. Do you or do you not have a real position or is this just rehtoric in the abstract?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Perhaps you might enlighten us as to what exactly Santa Ana did that justified the U.S. invasion of Mexico.
Would you feel Mexico would be justified in invading the U.S, to arrest an american citizen who had commited a crime in Mexico and the U.S. would not extradite?
thompson