RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (Full Version)

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cyberdude611 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 1:06:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: So because this kind of experience has not happened to you, specifically, that is the reason you believe it can't possibly happen to anyone else? That is downright stupid.

- Susan


I have never said the experiences are stupid but the interpretation of the experiences are stupid.

Our senses only perceive a tiny fraction of what is happening around us (less than 1% if I remember rightly) because our senses are adequate for our survival and no more. That leaves an enormous amount of activity going on in our environment that we don't know about. It isn't strange to me that at some points something happens to bring our atttention to something we don't normally sense or perceive. However, to make the assumption that the supernatural exists because one can't think of an explanation  is to jump the gun and down right lazy thinking. I would bet my life on the fact no one will ever produce credible evidence that the physical laws of the universe are being broken.


And who is to say that we know what the physical laws of the universe truely are? And scientific theories and laws are never written in stone. Science is constantly changing as new knowledge is introduced and new discoveries are made. Science does not have all the answers.




Siona -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 1:36:19 AM)

I grew up in a house that had a several.
There were to many unexplainable incediences for them not to be supernatural.
I've seen them.
I've heard them.
I've been touched by them.
I can sense them.
I can smell them.
I can feel them.
They are very real.




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:16:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And who is to say that we know what the physical laws of the universe truely are? And scientific theories and laws are never written in stone. Science is constantly changing as new knowledge is introduced and new discoveries are made. Science does not have all the answers.


You miss the point.

I don't profess to know or think anyone knows all the physical laws of the universe. 'Supernatural' by definition, means operating outside the natural physical laws of the universe. I'm saying that just because something cannot be explained, doesn't mean that something is operating outside the physical laws of the universe, it simply means, it can't be explained.  Supernatural is more than something not being explained, it is magic, it acts to it own rules regardless of physical laws.




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:18:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siona

I've seen them.
I've heard them.
I've been touched by them.
I can sense them.
I can smell them.
I can feel them.


These are just senses and senses don't give us any objective truth. The brain is easily fooled.




redsky -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:30:34 AM)

i have seen two men & a woman on seperate occasions, one i followed down my stairs from my bedroom to my kitchen, the other was my dad, we live in the UK and he lived in the USA, i was outside & he walked across the living room, when i went to visit my mom i heard him walking across the kitchen floor & i could smell him in the barn where he used to spend most of his time.....wishful thinking & sentimental imagination?.....i dont think so.
the woman walked past me in the pub where i worked to the ladies room, we closed the pub & the landlord said we'd locked a woman in he saw her walk to the ladies room, in a blue dress, blonde hair - same as i had seen-... he sent me to check the ladies room, there was nobody there.
i totally believe in what i have seen & i dont think its just down to our own senses. i can 'smell' my dad on a regular basis, i think he's letting me know hes around.




SirDiscipliner69 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:39:46 AM)

I believe in the un natural

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©





mons -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:52:22 AM)

greetings

i do believe in angels and many other things i have a strong 6th sense that has protected me for many years i seen things heard things to many times to care i do not want to hear it again. my twin was almost in an accdent that would have either kill her or did very deadly harm as she lost control of her care and she had someone sitting in the back seat hands came out of no where they were clouds they took the wheel and made it straight now the person in the back seat saw this and ask what was that . it happen so many times i can not began to tell it all but yes i believe in a higher power but supernaturla i do not like that word but it happen . i was cleaning mu bathroom and muy back was turned i heard a man voice said hello jane i jump and ran out of my apartement and then i came back and said you must not ever do that again you scared me so. to this day it has never happen again i am more scared of the living this is what my mother would tell us do not be scare of the dead worry of the living

take care all
mons




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 2:56:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redsky

i totally believe in what i have seen & i dont think its just down to our own senses. i can 'smell' my dad on a regular basis, i think he's letting me know hes around.


Every time I think of a particular ex. I can smell her, feel her almost. Strong and vital as these experiences are, to me it is just memory and longing.




SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 4:10:36 AM)

I am not objecting to your POV meatcleaver, and I kind of understand what you are saying, especially since - 

If I only believed or enjoyed things I could prove existed, I'd probably eliminate about half of the most enjoyable parts of my life.

Do "fantasies" exist? Maybe, maybe not, but I find them very useful sometimes - especially in the bdsm realm. I'd hate to think my very realistic orgasms were all the result of some fraudulent trick of my brain, something outside the "natural laws of the physical universe" Are they? Are fantasies, for instance, something that would be considered "natural", or "supernatural"?  It's a serious question, Because -


What exactly is meant by the term "super-natural"? I read your definition above, I just want to know how things like the imagination place, within the so-called "physical laws of the universe". 

Because imagination and thought have existed as a human  phenomenon for quite awhile, and without them, humans would not be perceiving such things as "the physical laws of the universe." 

To me, the term "super-natural" seems to be a catch-all phrase for what is merely, much of the time, simply out of the realm of a single person's (or a group of people's) experience.

The "physical laws of the universe" are pretty much evolving (as far as it appears to humans anyway) being ever more discovered, since time began. I don't assume they are static, or that even what science thinks is "known" is possibly completely correct, as you say.

But to me, that is all the more reason it would be silly to believe that what is "known" is to be considered "all there is to know", or static and unchanging - considering just a few hundred years ago, the rest of the world believed the Earth was flat and the Sun revolved around it, for instance. 

I don't consider that a reason to not consider other possibilities for why things might exist (or consider if they do). If people did that, IMO, not many might be very inspired to ever want to discover new reasons for things existing. 

IMO, an imagination is a terrible thing to waste. Most (if not all) of what  people perceive as enjoyable (or awful, or nuetral, or "weird") is filtered through a sensual system (however many senses that may entail, two, five, or six senses, who's counting, really?) that is maybe only partly perceived the exact same way by anyone else

Individual people are all going to see a painting or a movie, or experience a book, differently, for example. Films, art and books, for instance, originate from an ethereal place that cannot be pinned down - the realm of the imagination.  

*Your argument seems to be that you cannot believe in things you cannot see.

But then - how does one explain the sense of joy they may receive from a  D/s relationship, for instance - it is all in one's head, for the most part, is it not? Considering the brain is "the biggest sex organ", etc?

The emotions, the inter-play between two people that result from it - none of it would exist at all, if not for that elusive thing one cannot see- imagination. Without thought (imagination), there can be no action.

My guess is that you believe in plenty of things you cannot see already.

It is interesting to speculate why one can believe in these things, and yet cannot fathom believing in other things that have not been "proven" to exist.
It's bizarre, in fact (to me anyway.)   

- Susan 




SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 5:11:35 AM)

I didn't mean to get the thread off-track. Maybe, meatcleaver, you are saying that one cannot believe in things one cannot explain (not merely what one cannot see.) 

Aside from still wondering how things like consciousness, thought, and imagination fit in with the so far discovered "physical laws of the universe" ... 

Again, I'd just posit that most folks already believe in plenty of even fairly mundane stuff they cannot explain (like the IRS tax code, and how to build a car from the ground up, for example.)

I believe I can drive my car, and I do, even though I cannot technically explain everything about why it works. Ditto for turning the lights on in my house at night- I believe in electricity, even if I don't fully understand it, and cannot explain it. And so on.

And I bet you do, too. Anyway, thanks for listening to me ramble.

- Susan




Siona -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 1:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siona

I've seen them.
I've heard them.
I've been touched by them.
I can sense them.
I can smell them.
I can feel them.


These are just senses and senses don't give us any objective truth. The brain is easily fooled.


What are you trying to prove with all of this?
You pick everything apart that goes against YOUR way of thinking.
 
I know what I've experienced.
I don't need you nor anyone else trying to tell me what I've experienced wasn't real.
You were NOT there.




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 3:59:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siona

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Siona

I've seen them.
I've heard them.
I've been touched by them.
I can sense them.
I can smell them.
I can feel them.


These are just senses and senses don't give us any objective truth. The brain is easily fooled.


What are you trying to prove with all of this?
You pick everything apart that goes against YOUR way of thinking.
 
I know what I've experienced.
I don't need you nor anyone else trying to tell me what I've experienced wasn't real.
You were NOT there.


No  I don't. I just think that believing in fairies is rather juvenile.




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 4:28:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I didn't mean to get the thread off-track. Maybe, meatcleaver, you are saying that one cannot believe in things one cannot explain (not merely what one cannot see.) 



It's not about not believing in what one experiences but the explanations put upon them. Strange things happen and people have strange experiences but to say they are due to something supernatural is to say that the laws of physics can be broken (it is irrelevent if we know about them or not). It is to say that magic happens, that there is arbitary intervention in the universe by something outside the universe, that is what I don't believe, if that happened, nothing would make sense. We wouldn't be able to predict anything and so driving ones car would be totally unpredictable, as would flying, as would communicating through the internet.




domiguy -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 4:45:56 PM)

To me it is a just a bunch of gobbledygook and wishful thinking....No one likes to think that this life is it...And there is nothing beyond it...If there is something beyond  I can dig it ...If not so be it,,I have never seen a ghost I don't personally know of anyone who is credible that has....I do not believe in psychics...Otherwise they would use their abilities for gain, not just to "rip-off" foolish believers....

If it makes you happy fine...Chase your ghosts...Blame the spirits for blowing out your candles in lieu of the  wind...It just seems your energy would be better spent chasing tangible pusuits instead of the nonexistant energies of the departed....Muhahahahahaaha!...Spooky!

"love is kinda crazy with a spooky litttle girl like you....Spooky!"




SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 4:51:45 PM)

So then - what you really have a problem with is the term "super" in the word "super-natural." Okay. But - why would it surprise you that people try to explain things they can't seem to explain in such terms? They've been doing that for centuries.

You yourself, IMO, are taking things "on faith", as "fact" that you read in scientific text-books or articles, for example, if you've not experienced them first-hand, regardless of whether or not the majority of folks believe those things, and whether or not they are taught as fact in schools. So - that is what I think of them actually "validating" anyone's notion of proving "known facts" and as a kind of ultimate "dis-proof", or "proof." Repeatable experience can exist, and that's about it, I'd say, as far as anyone's perceptual experiences being "valid" are concerned.

As far as not believing in "magic", I think the fact I can sit here in my little office in Nebraska, and communicate w/you, who are in another country, is pretty darned "magical", as in incredibly unfathomable as far as being possible - even though I know there are "scientific" explanations and reasons for it being able to happen. Can you explain all the ins and outs of why or how, exactly, that happens (our internet connections), or why it should even be able to happen? And yet, it does happen.

If you can't explain that, (or even if you can), I get confused as to why some people think such things they term "ghosts" and ESP, or UFO's etc. are out of the realm of possibility. I see plenty of weird shit happen every day, in ordinary life, that I cannot explain.

Also - just because I am used to seeing some things happen regularly in everyday life, doesn't necessarily mean the odds of them happening at all, might not be, on a grander, more universal scale, tremendously low

What are the odds I'd be born in Nebraska, vs. Japan, for example? Or that the Platypus would develop as a species in Australia, rather than in South America? Etc, etc. So - I can't imagine why there wouldn't be room for more "weird and amazing" (to me) occurrences in our universe.

And I am not (and don't consider myself) exactly stupid for believing that. Instead, I am happy that my sense of wonder is not completely dead. 

- Susan




popeye1250 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 5:21:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

greetings

i do believe in angels and many other things i have a strong 6th sense that has protected me for many years i seen things heard things to many times to care i do not want to hear it again. my twin was almost in an accdent that would have either kill her or did very deadly harm as she lost control of her care and she had someone sitting in the back seat hands came out of no where they were clouds they took the wheel and made it straight now the person in the back seat saw this and ask what was that . it happen so many times i can not began to tell it all but yes i believe in a higher power but supernaturla i do not like that word but it happen . i was cleaning mu bathroom and muy back was turned i heard a man voice said hello jane i jump and ran out of my apartement and then i came back and said you must not ever do that again you scared me so. to this day it has never happen again i am more scared of the living this is what my mother would tell us do not be scare of the dead worry of the living

take care all
mons


Mons, that "hands comming out of the back seat" thing is new.
I think General Motors invented it.
It's called the "Casperemergencycontrol system."
I think it's part of the airbag system.
As for the bathroom incident just be thankfull you wearn't on the pot or in the shower!




martyrized -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/4/2007 9:32:48 PM)

I actually was involved with a 'ghost-hunting' group with friends of mine for a while. We would take trips to local places that were said to be haunted, set up recording equipment and snap photos/'channel-write'. The channel-writing was kind of my thing, since I'm a (begrudgingly) self-admitted, friend-confirmed empath/medium. Before the group split ways (couple of us moved out of the area, others had a falling out of sorts) we had managed to record countless 'orbs', a few 'apparitions', some good shots of 'vortexes' (those are the laser-like lines that show up in some photos that are not caused by moving light/laser-pointers), and a slew (a 5x7 sketchbook filled) of channel-writing/drawings that coincided with a lot of the photographic evidence. We once went to a 'hotspot' and managed to record an EVP, which made us all creeped out but excited.

Based on that experience, I can't say that I don't believe, but there are some supernatural bits that are just way too wacky to even consider believing...

*slinks back to her corner*




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/5/2007 1:09:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

So then - what you really have a problem with is the term "super" in the word "super-natural." Okay. But - why would it surprise you that people try to explain things they can't seem to explain in such terms? They've been doing that for centuries.



'Supernatural' is the fundemental word as it means 'above natural'. That it something is caused by someone or something, breaking the laws of the universe. Yes, there are many wonderful and strange things in the universe that we find difficult, not to say impossible to explain. That doesn't make anything 'supernatural', it simply makes them inexplicable to us and shows what a shortage of knowledge we have. It isn't necessary to resort to some sort of voodoo thinking to accept we haven't the knowledge or tools to explain these things. I think it is like domguy suggests, many people find it difficult to accept that when it comes to life, this is all you get so make the best of it. People are really good at looking on the brightside or wishful thinking, and many people can't face the stark reality of life shed of all the romantic glow that is more often than not put upon it. If someone close to you dies, it is difficult to accept that is it, you will never see them again. It is difficult to accept that when the lights go out that is it, there is nothing but there was nothing before people are born so what is the big deal? As for being born in America or Japan, if a different sperm of your father fertilized your mother's egg, you wouldn't have been born, someone else would. Difficult to accept I know but that is how tantalizingly close we all were to not existing at all.




SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/5/2007 1:49:13 AM)

meatcleaver: It's not "difficult to accept." In fact, I doubt it's the real explanation, actually, but I could never prove that. You'd need to explain a bit more what you mean by "voo-doo" thinking to get me to agree with your paragraph above.

I understood what you meant - but so what? I am not trying to be insulting but -your POV just seems so flat, and deadening, somehow, to me. And it also seems to seriously lack any reverence for, or sense of wonder at the world, and the fact the world exists at all. In fact it seems to take so much totally for granted.

You aren't really explaining anything about the origin of the world, or even attempting to explain why you consider some things "unexplainable", and yet, you still have the arrogance to write off anyone who does have the curiosity to try to do so - and-or believes in something that you find "unproveable," as "silly and juvenile". Hmmm. 

I wonder what kind of science teachers you and domiguy would make, with all of that invitation you seem to give to people to investigate and use their natural sense of curiosity? It is a serious comment, and not meant as an insult. But, what would prompt anyone to want to investigate anything, with that kind of "encouragement", I am wondering?

I mean, you only believe what other people seem to have already "proven" repeatedly, as far as accepting anything as scientific "fact" - despite the fact you also agree that 'men of science' have repeatedly been proven ultimately wrong in some of their conclusions throughout history. This seems to be contradicting yourself, in a sense.

I actually don't happen to believe that nothing happens to us after this life, or that "this is all there is", but since I of course cannot prove it, I'd prefer not going there, as I don't want to get into a religious discussion. Of course you are entitled to your POV, as I am to mine. No offense intended (truly).

- Susan




meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/5/2007 3:01:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I understood what you meant - but so what? I am not trying to be insulting but -your POV just seems so flat, and deadening, somehow, to me. And it also seems to seriously lack any reverence for, or sense of wonder at the world, and the fact the world exists at all. In fact it seems to take so much totally for granted.



Shed of romanticism and our own conceit of attaching some intrinsic importance to our existence in the great scheme of things, yep, I accept that life doesn't appear to have much going for it. However, I am no scientist but I take an interest and science is endlessly fascinating, much more fascinating than all religions and supernatural wishful thinking, it exercises the mind and broadens the imagination  much more than anything else that I have come across. It is all down the the way one looks at the world and I find the scientific exercises the mind much more than fuzzy, woolly supernatural explanations. Who knows, maybe there is life after death but if there is, though I doubt it but if there is, I contend it will not be supernatural but within the natural laws of the universe. Anything else would create a universe that is unpredictable and we don't appear to live in an unpredictable universe, just one where we don't have enough knowledge to make predictions for most things.




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