RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural?

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 11:34:03 AM)
Stellabystarlite: Well, I agree with you, and I azm certainly not irked at you. I just considered it a discussion, and a fairly interesting one at that. I normally don't carry on like this, either, but sometimes w/ mc, I can't seem to resist. juliaoceania: I think you hit the nail on the head. - Susan

meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 12:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I find this sentence bizarre. I would say there is something so 'intelligent designerish' about the wishful thinking of people who stridently demand there is such a thing as the supernatural. His point is that just because you do not understand it and science has not described the mechanism by which it exists does not mean it does not exist. Science may later find a way to prove or disprove "supernatural" phenomena... and if they do it will be understood and no longer "supernatural" I think it is the certainty that there is nothing beyond what you can see and describe with science that comes off a little "one true way"-ish I never said that just because science has not described something, that something does not exist. I said just because science hasn't explained something, doesn't mean that something is supernatural ie. it exists outside the laws of physics. I readily accept we don't know everything and readily accept we might not ever know everything but it still doesn't mean that something is supernatural. quote: Refusing to believe in the supernatural without proof is quite a rational stance for someone who doesn't believe in a creative power, or at least until some proof has been produced. To me the only intellectually honest answer is "I do not believe or disbelieve" quote: For the thousands of years people have believed in the supernatural, the supernatural has lived on superstition and not proof. If you feel superstition is enough to convince you the supernatural exists, that is for you but it is you that adopts the 'intelligent designerish' approach to the universe. I think this part I emboldened is a little bit of a straw man, seeing he never stated that quote: People who believe in the supernatural generally believe in god or someother creative power that created the universe and who/which breaks its own rules to interfer in the universe. Refusing to believe there is no such thing as the supernatural requires absolutely nothing 'intelligent designerish'. But it is a bit one true wayish because you disbelieve in anything that you do not understand completely and cannot be proven or disproven, even stridently so. No I don't and I never said any such thing. I said just because we can't explain something, doesn't mean that something exists outside the natural laws of physics that govern the universe. As I have said, we don't know everything and probably never will. I contend that everything in the universe is governed by the same laws, it is people who believe in the supernatural believe there is something outside the universe we know that can intervene in the universe. I am a person that has no trouble stating I believe in things not proven or disproven by science. It enriches my existence, it sparks my creative thinking, and I do not feel the need to convert you to believing the same way as I do. At the same time I have often seen a ridiculing attitude when it comes to believing in things not proven or disproven by science by you... even though there are entire fields of cutting edge science that are addressing mechanisms to explain why faith and prayer affect the world around us. I try not to be dismissive of how other people believe... and yes I understand what beliefs are, and I also understand that we form our conception of the world by faith and belief in things we "know" to be true, which could all be some grand illusion anyways. I can readily accept there are things we don't understand but that is not the argument. The argument is whether the supernatural exists or not and supernatural means existing outside the physical laws that govern us.

juliaoceania -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 1:46:19 PM)
I think of something supernatural as something that we have no rational explanation for... yet. I do not believe anything that exists is "supernatural". The laws if physics? Quantum or conventional? Because the laws of physics do not really work all that well all the time, and there is much that is left unexplained by them in the natural world... such as the law of gravity. edited to add this for thought... it often blows my mind when applying exponential quantities to reality. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=0002B59B-5B5C-1359-9B5C83414B7F0119

Rule -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 2:29:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver supernatural ie. it exists outside the laws of physics. That is correct. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I contend that everything in the universe is governed by the same laws, That is correct as well. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver it is people who believe in the supernatural believe there is something outside the universe we know that can intervene in the universe. That is correct as well. But there is a rule: not on its own initiative. And a second rule: utilizing the laws of the universe, not breaking them. And there is an exception: in very rare instances the intervention may visibly circumvent the laws of our universe. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The argument is whether the supernatural exists or not and supernatural means existing outside the physical laws that govern us. Quite. And when physical laws do not pertain, science is ineffective.

meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 3:28:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I think of something supernatural as something that we have no rational explanation for... yet. I do not believe anything that exists is "supernatural". The laws if physics? Quantum or conventional? Because the laws of physics do not really work all that well all the time, and there is much that is left unexplained by them in the natural world... such as the law of gravity. edited to add this for thought... it often blows my mind when applying exponential quantities to reality. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=0002B59B-5B5C-1359-9B5C83414B7F0119 I've never said we know everything or what we know is diffinitive. Science leads us into many mind blowing scenarios, far more complex, far more mind stretching, which exercises the imagination far more than what I consider, lazy and convenient supernatural explanations. I just contend that everything in the universe is subject to the same laws, forces, call them what you will. I just don't believe or won't believe without proof, that two separate rules are working in the unverse, natural and supernatural.

meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 3:30:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The argument is whether the supernatural exists or not and supernatural means existing outside the physical laws that govern us. Quite. And when physical laws do not pertain, science is ineffective. Rule, you sound like a medieval priest talking about god, except in your case, the divine. The divine exists because you say the devine exists. I never believed a priest and neither do I believe you.

iwannapullurhair -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 5:45:13 PM)
I lived in a haunted house-a real bad one. The animals could sense it too. I had a cat go insane and start acting like the one in Pet Cemetary. She would hide and growl and run out and bite me. It disappeared one day. I never did find out where she went. I had my bed jump up and down and not in the fun way. There were these horrible cold spots that were much colder and seemed to be charged with electricity. It would make all your hair stand up just in the spot-like all the hair on your arm. Later they began to move. One room had an awful presence with heavy air so thick you could cut it. You could feel it at the base of the stairs and when you did, you knew that room was going to be hell to go through. I had moving furniture, odd sounds, and a strange apparition that I don't think was ever a human being. I had a room full of friends over when a giant dictionary sailed across the room when no one was even close to it. There were balls of light. I watched one drift across a floor under a computer desk-it was sort of an amber color. When it reached the leg of the desk and I looked beyond to the other side of the leg to see it continue, it was gone. One time, one of these lights discharged against a wall with a flash-it left a black mark and right before it did, I turned and looked, almost like something was trying to get my attention. This was in a room full of friends. It freaked them out and I was about as pale as a white sheet. Some other friends saw the flash under a closed door in another room, it was that bright. There were strange nasty smells from time to time. The worst thing was the palpable, heavy presence feeling. I had one friend leave suddenly after a presence moved through him(leaving me there by myself-funtimes). There was a shadow that would dart from room to room. I thought it was my eyes or something-my mom couldn't see it(she had glaucoma surgery at one point). I tried to photograph it. So one time I'm trying to point it out to my mom and I let my dog out into the room. The dog went nuts chasing it. The dog went everywhere I saw it go. It wasn't a bug by the light. I could go on for hours-it was that bad.

SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 5:51:43 PM)
See? I do believe stuff like this really happens. To me, it is fascinating, and makes me want to know more, if possible. Just because a skeptic can find no "rational explanation" for such an occurrence, doesn't mean the experience didn't happen (or, necessarily, that there is a "rational" explanation for it). So what does a skeptic usually do when they hear of, or encounter, a similar experience? They (more or less) just seem to dismiss the entire experience - which can sometimes kind of leaves (current) "science" nowhere, IMO. But - *still usually without any "better" explanation of what happened. - Susan

iwannapullurhair -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 5:59:21 PM)
I had a friend that felt like he was the second coming of Einstein. He was there when I discovered my first cold spot for certain. He stuck his arm into it and looked so shocked. All the hair on his arm was standing. He was there when the house was going crazy. A space heater was rocking back and forth like it was kicked-nobody was close to it. The floor was groaning like it was under some sort of intense pressure and other assorted strangeness at the same time. Later on, he rationalized it all. The cold spot was just something electrical. He didn't really bother explaining the other stuff.

SusanofO -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/6/2007 6:01:56 PM)
Well I think such occurences, or the idea of them, really scares some people, so they just dismiss it all as "hog-wash". It would scare me too, but I'd still tend to not rationalize it completely out of existence, as anything closer to "normal", I think. - Susan

Sinergy -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 12:08:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy There is something so "intelligent designerish" about the wishful thinking of people who stridently demand there is no such thing as the supernatural. I find this sentence bizarre. I would say there is something so 'intelligent designerish' about the wishful thinking of people who stridently demand there is such a thing as the supernatural. People who believe in the supernatural generally believe in god or someother creative power that created the universe and who/which breaks its own rules to interfer in the universe. Refusing to believe there is no such thing as the supernatural requires absolutely nothing 'intelligent designerish'. Refusing to believe in the supernatural without proof is quite a rational stance for someone who doesn't believe in a creative power, or at least until some proof has been produced. For the thousands of years people have believed in the supernatural, the supernatural has lived on superstition and not proof. If you feel superstition is enough to convince you the supernatural exists, that is for you but it is you that adopts the 'intelligent designerish' approach to the universe. I think you misunderstood me, meatcleaver. I was simply stating that because we do not know how to prove something does not mean it does not exist. This is not a statement that just because we cannot prove something means it does exist. I used the term "intelligent designerish" because what I have read about ID proponents is their whole idea seems to be predicated on the basic premise "I cant understand how it happened, so God did it." Which is not to say that this is not the case, but I think viewing the world with that mindset closes a person off from learning something they did not know yesterday. The example I gave "Elephants have telepathy" keeps people from examining elephants, and one day somebody had an idea to do something and discovered there was nothing supernatural about it at all. Sinergy

domiguy -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 12:45:51 AM)
That's why I stayed away from the Zoo...I thought those telepathic packaderms would psychically tell my girlfriend that I was banging her cousin....All of those wasted Zooless years...Now you tell me!!!

meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 1:13:38 AM)
apologies. I should get out of the habit of posting and working at the same time.

Sinergy -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 6:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver apologies. I should get out of the habit of posting and working at the same time. I used to do that, but I have yet to be able to hack into the network down on the docks to rewire the OCR scanner / clerking computer database system to give me broadband while I am standing under the crane expressing my morpheme. Dont fear. I am working on getting my qualifications to get jobs as a mechanic doing computer stuff, and then the world is mine at 130% basic wage with 10 hours / day minimum! Sinergy

Hanable -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 7:51:08 PM)
to me it dosent matter if u can prove it or disprove it. i will believe what i want to until the day i die. no matter what. i will always believe in vampires and werewolves, ghosts and witches. it is just who i am. its what makes me me. H >:)

luckydog1 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 10:11:57 PM)
Elephants May or May not have telepathy. Showing that one behavior is not due to telepathy, does not speak to other behaviors, nor rule out the existance. This is basic logic. However, Sharks do have the ability to sense energy fields, and this has passed every scientific test, it is not in debate. I guess telepathy can defined in various ways, but I think being able to sense, locate and identify other creatures by thier energy field qualifies. Other creatures can discharge energy as an offensive or defensive weopon.

luckydog1 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 10:21:53 PM)
The term "supernatural" can be defined in various ways also. It is a logical falacy to make a strawman argument based on one definiton of a term. Many people think that the "laws of the Universe" which are so revered by some posters are infact a manifestation of divine will. From what scientists know so far the universe could not have come into existance under the laws now. And most of what should be here isn't. So they postulate there must be "dark matter". And they assume that what we consider the "immutable laws of Physics" did not apply in the very early universe. It is rather arrogant to assume that life as we know it is the only form that could exist, why couldn't there be a form of energy that is alive, especially if it is outside/predates our Time/space, or is in another dimension. Why couldn't we as apperant individuals be part of a larger whole, just as the cells in our body. Also religous thought has evolved significantly over time. Pretending it is static and unchanging is simply nonsense, whether it is a fundamentalist or an athiest saying it. And basing an argument on a false assertion ( science changes and religion doesn't) is also nonsense.

Sinergy -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/7/2007 11:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Elephants May or May not have telepathy. Showing that one behavior is not due to telepathy, does not speak to other behaviors, nor rule out the existance. This is basic logic. However, Sharks do have the ability to sense energy fields, and this has passed every scientific test, it is not in debate. I guess telepathy can defined in various ways, but I think being able to sense, locate and identify other creatures by thier energy field qualifies. Other creatures can discharge energy as an offensive or defensive weopon. This is true. They may have telepathy. Occams Razor tends to indicate that the low frequency chatter they use (coupled with ears designed to pick up low frequency chatter) means they communicate that way. Sinergy

luckydog1 -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/8/2007 12:06:08 AM)
Absolutly true Sinergy, but they might use telpathic abilities in other ways along with communicateing with ultra low frequencies. I have no idea if they have telepathy at all, and would not even consider debating it. I do know that some animals have "telepathic" powers, sharks. I believe people do also.

meatcleaver -> RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? (4/8/2007 2:15:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 And they assume that what we consider the "immutable laws of Physics" did not apply in the very early universe. It is rather arrogant to assume that life as we know it is the only form that could exist, why couldn't there be a form of energy that is alive, especially if it is outside/predates our Time/space, or is in another dimension. No one has said what you say they say from what I have read an written. I'm sure there are forms of life we couldn't even dream of. The contention I have, is that I don't buy that two or more separate rules, laws, call them what you will interact with each other or exist together. quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Why couldn't we as apperant individuals be part of a larger whole, just as the cells in our body. Also religous thought has evolved significantly over time. Pretending it is static and unchanging is simply nonsense, whether it is a fundamentalist or an athiest saying it. And basing an argument on a false assertion ( science changes and religion doesn't) is also nonsense. We obviously don't exist as individual life forms on certain levels because we can't exist outside our environment and our environment depends on energy from outside it. I don't see any problem with that. As for religion, while the imagination can dream up all sorts of stuff, looking at religion, it is not as imaginative as scientific thought and has a tendency to refuse to be asked probing questions where scientific thought positively encourages scepticism and questioning because that is how it function. I know people claim it doesn't but that is people who pluck a thought out of mid air, claim it is true and offer no evidence. A la religion.

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