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RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 2:46:29 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanable
i will always believe in vampires and werewolves

I know someone who has seen a werewolf in my own country. It happened in 1976. They were living in a low apartment building in a village in a suburb of a larger town and after dinner in the winter evening he was sent to the basement to get potatoes for the next day. He heard a noise outside, something scraping and rubbing itself against the wall. When he looked up through the window, he saw the creature, standing hunched over on two legs. He could not see its head. He estimated its weight at three hundred kilograms. The werewolf was unaware of being observed.

Supernatural? To the minds of primitive peoples only.

< Message edited by Rule -- 4/8/2007 2:47:53 AM >

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Post #: 121

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 3:19:28 AM

luckydog1

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No one has said what you say they say from what I have read an written. The period after the Big Bang called Inflation. Of course you have heard of it.It did only last 10^-35 seconds, but it was before any of the forces in our universe existed, no nuclear forces, no gravitaional forces, ect, exactly the sort of chaos you say would exist if not for the Laws of Physics. They did not always exist. This energy created them. I'm sure there are forms of life we couldn't even dream of. But you utterly rule out energy based life, Like Gjosts or faries? Or the concept that life is an expression of energy from another dimension/outside. Some sort of anti entropy energy sort of like the first moments of big bang theory. You simply rule out that the fields or particles we detect might also be in other dimensions at the same time. The contention I have, is that I don't buy that two or more separate rules, laws, call them what you will interact with each other or exist together. That is limiting yourself to your own view, who says they have to be seperate? Just you. The term Supernatural is imperfect, as are all words.

We obviously don't exist as individual life forms on certain levels because we can't exist outside our environment and our environment depends on energy from outside it. I don't see any problem with that. That is not at all what I meant As for religion, while the imagination can dream up all sorts of stuff, looking at religion, it is not as imaginative as scientific thought That is your personal opinion, I disagree and has a tendency to refuse to be asked probing questions where scientific thought positively encourages scepticism and questioning because that is how it function. Yes we all see how Global warming scientists love skepticism, and questioning, 2 threads are currently running on it here. I know people claim it doesn't (But the evidence of reactions questioning Human cuased Catastrophic Global Warming is undeniable is it not?)but that is people who pluck a thought out of mid air, claim it is true and offer no evidence. A la religion. We get that you hate religion so dismiss any sort of paranormal/supernatural/spiritual idea and have since you were 8 and have never given it a serious thought since. You define it in a very limited way and restrict yourself to arguing against your own weak definition. But this isn't even about religion. Supernatural

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 4/8/2007 3:20:21 AM >

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Post #: 122

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 3:49:03 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Supernatural

You don't even know what supernatural is nor does anyone else that says it exists, it is usually some vague unrepeatable experience or attached to some conceited disbelief that their ego could be trapped in a body that dies and that they can't accept that they are so unimportant as individuals and irrelevent to the grand scheme of things.

Scientists who believe in global warming believe in it because there has not been any serious counter argument to explain the climate change that people are now starting to see in their everyday lives. They have factored in all the sceptics counter arguments such as the sun being at the height of its cycle etc etc but still nothing of substance counters the argument for global warming. Now we all understand why America is the land with the most sceptics, they see themselves as having most to lose. However, they haven't, that is just the propaganda of the Bush and the special interest groups that have bought him.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/8/2007 3:50:13 AM >

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Post #: 123

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 4:06:49 AM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanable
i will always believe in vampires and werewolves

I know someone who has seen a werewolf in my own country. It happened in 1976. They were living in a low apartment building in a village in a suburb of a larger town and after dinner in the winter evening he was sent to the basement to get potatoes for the next day. He heard a noise outside, something scraping and rubbing itself against the wall. When he looked up through the window, he saw the creature, standing hunched over on two legs. He could not see its head. He estimated its weight at three hundred kilograms. The werewolf was unaware of being observed.

Supernatural? To the minds of primitive peoples only.

"Better stay away from him. He'll rip your lungs out, Jim I'd like to meet his tailor."

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/8/2007 4:07:19 AM >

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Post #: 124

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 4:20:30 AM

meatcleaver

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Oh and lucky. Science doesn't pretend to be anything other than it is and without science and technology we wouldn't be able to communicate, fly around the world and a host of other things that people hundreds of years ago might have considered supernatural.

The supernatural however, is all things to all men, it is what someone wants it to be, it is only limited by an individuals imagination where it appears for the most part to remain, since no one appears to be able to provide proof or repeat some experience for others to share.

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Post #: 125

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 4:39:21 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
You don't even know what supernatural is nor does anyone else that says it exists

It is a vague term that has many different categories that are indiscriminately described as such. Thus people without the wherewithal to make sense of such a jumble are easily confused.
As to the reality of one category of the supernatural, there is the story of the two grieve stricken survivors of an inuit village. Hunger struck and they were forced to kill and eat each other until only two were left. A traveller came upon them and offered assistance. In their grieving madness they refused his aid, saying that since they ate their kind, they had thus become supernatural creatures and therefore had become immortal. He left them and supposedly the man ate the woman and then died himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
it is usually some vague unrepeatable experience

Billions of people throughout history have experienced the supernatural. How many repeats do you require?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
or attached to some conceited disbelief that their ego could be trapped in a body that dies

Oh, now people have an ego? Aren't you one of those people that adhere to the old-fashioned idea that people and animals are Descartian automatons?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
and that they can't accept that they are so unimportant as individuals and irrelevent to the grand scheme of things.

Where did you get the erroneous notion that individuals are not important and irrelevant to the grand scheme of things? That may be so in your perception of reality, but it is only your arrogance that supports your perception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Scientists who believe in global warming believe in it because there has not been any serious counter argument to explain the climate change that people are now starting to see in their everyday lives.

Believe, believe. Not much science in that, is there? The warming is often not the contention, but the reason why is in dispute.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
They have factored in all the sceptics counter arguments such as the sun being at the height of its cycle etc etc but still nothing of substance counters the argument for global warming.

No they did not factor in all the arguments. I supplied one argument that they did not factor in. So there.

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Post #: 126

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 5:19:42 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
or attached to some conceited disbelief that their ego could be trapped in a body that dies

Oh, now people have an ego? Aren't you one of those people that adhere to the old-fashioned idea that people and animals are Descartian automatons?

Nothing but an assumption. Look at the cargo cults and you will see how confused and how wrong some people's belief of the supernatural is.

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Post #: 127

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 6:06:17 AM

domiguy

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My car didn't start the other day....It could either be spooks or the alternator.....Fucking ghosts!

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Post #: 128

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 8:24:19 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

My car didn't start the other day....It could either be spooks or the alternator.....Fucking ghosts!

You aren't really that stupid to believe it could be your alternator are you domiguy?

You should seek out your local cargo cult and maybe a they will divine up a new alternator for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

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Post #: 129

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 8:31:31 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

You don't even know what supernatural is nor does anyone else that says it exists, it is usually some vague unrepeatable experience or attached to some conceited disbelief that their ego could be trapped in a body that dies and that they can't accept that they are so unimportant as individuals and irrelevent to the grand scheme of things.

I was watching a video with cosmologists who were talking about the natural laws of this universe, and how they came up with a theory of the multiverse in order to rule out a "Creator" because the cosmic constant was trillion times a trillion times a trillion so exact that a higher intelligence creating the universe would be the only way to explain it.

So they come up with the multiverse explanation, which basically states that there are many universes that could have natural laws that are radically different from our own... hmmmmm. I suppose those laws would be something that we would all consider "supernatural", and do these "universes" ever interact? I will not even go into the hypothesis that we are indeed a carbon based simulation.... that seems to be a way out there theory when the cosmic constant and the natural order seems to be better explained by .... a creator....lol

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Post #: 130

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 8:47:26 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

You don't even know what supernatural is nor does anyone else that says it exists, it is usually some vague unrepeatable experience or attached to some conceited disbelief that their ego could be trapped in a body that dies and that they can't accept that they are so unimportant as individuals and irrelevent to the grand scheme of things.

I was watching a video with cosmologists who were talking about the natural laws of this universe, and how they came up with a theory of the multiverse in order to rule out a "Creator" because the cosmic constant was trillion times a trillion times a trillion so exact that a higher intelligence creating the universe would be the only way to explain it.

So they come up with the multiverse explanation, which basically states that there are many universes that could have natural laws that are radically different from our own... hmmmmm. I suppose those laws would be something that we would all consider "supernatural", and do these "universes" ever interact? I will not even go into the hypothesis that we are indeed a carbon based simulation.... that seems to be a way out there theory when the cosmic constant and the natural order seems to be better explained by .... a creator....lol

They are hypothosis' and nothing else, they aren't laws or hard and fast facts and the people who propose them know that, where religious people have hard and fast beliefs in the figments of their imaginations. Myself, I don't think there has to be any alternative theory or reason to rule out a creative power because you always have the problem of where the creative power came from. The source of creatiion, if there was a source, is largely irrelevent. We might simply not have the capacity to understand or root out the necessary knowledge. I don't see what good it does in wafting up the supernatural to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Speculation is just exercising the imagination and not invoking something that isn't and having a sincere belief in it being true.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/8/2007 8:49:56 AM >

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Post #: 131

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:05:12 AM

juliaoceania

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Here is a link to the cosmic constant... it is a "natural law" based upon mathematics.

http://www.iran-daily.com/1385/2554/pdf/i4.pdf

Now you may believe it is there by "chance", but it does not appear that way from the study of probability measuring the other known probabilities against it... just saying.

Edited to add a link that made more sense, the rest of them are filled with math

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/8/2007 9:09:53 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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Post #: 132

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:18:05 AM

Rule

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The multiverse hypothesis and the cosmic constant are both humbug. The universe does not expand. There never was a Big Bang.

As for MC: he may be afraid to let go of his securities: the facts and the illusion of facts that he so desperately clings to.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 133

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:21:33 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The multiverse hypothesis and the cosmic constant are both humbug. The universe does not expand. There never was a Big Bang.

As for MC: he may be afraid to let go of his securities: the facts and the illusion of facts that he so desperately clings to.

I'm clinging to nothing, I'm just waiting for people to produce some evidence of the supernatural. Am I supposed to believe in fairies because someone claims to have seen them at the bottom of their garden?

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Post #: 134

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:22:17 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The multiverse hypothesis and the cosmic constant are both humbug. The universe does not expand. There never was a Big Bang.

As for MC: he may be afraid to let go of his securities: the facts and the illusion of facts that he so desperately clings to.

You see, this is the thing that gets me, people stating things as though they are fact with no math, no science, no sort of proof. Now if you stated the Big Bang has little evidence of happening, or that there are other hypothesis other than the Big Bang, then I would be interested in hearing them... but to dismiss it out of hand with no sort of proof is not something I find very convincing to be completely honest with you... and btw, my ego is not trapped in whether the Big Bang occurred or not....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 135

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:32:44 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is a link to the cosmic constant... it is a "natural law" based upon mathematics.

http://www.iran-daily.com/1385/2554/pdf/i4.pdf

Now you may believe it is there by "chance", but it does not appear that way from the study of probability measuring the other known probabilities against it... just saying.

Edited to add a link that made more sense, the rest of them are filled with math

But I'm not claiming scientific speculation to be factual, certainly not where cosmology is concerned, they are speculative in nature and recognized as such by people who put them forward. It is people who believe in the supernatural that believe the supernatural to be fact and for the most part, they rely on nothing but their sense and imaginations which we all know to be unreliable. People have trouble estimating the speed of a passing car or identifying someone at a crime scene which is why the police have so much trouble in solving crimes, the senses can't be relied on to give us factual information within our grasp, never mind episodes that are normally beyond our everyday experience..

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Post #: 136

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:36:55 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You see, this is the thing that gets me, people stating things as though they are fact with no math, no science, no sort of proof. Now if you stated the Big Bang has little evidence of happening, or that there are other hypothesis other than the Big Bang, then I would be interested in hearing them... but to dismiss it out of hand with no sort of proof is not something I find very convincing to be completely honest with you... and btw, my ego is not trapped in whether the Big Bang occurred or not....

Pff. The multiverse hypothesis violates the principle of simplicity. Instead of having only one universe to explain the multiverse hypothesis has to explain a bazillion of them.
As for the Big Bang: there is not one fact that supports the Big Bang hypothesis. The Big Bang hypothesis has been cobbled together with as its only foundations several lousy interpretations that no sensible person would ever accept. What is more: Big Bang cosmologists are very much aware that their dear hypothesis is decrepit.

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Post #: 137

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:40:32 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Pff. The multiverse hypothesis violates the principle of simplicity. Instead of having only one universe to explain the multiverse hypothesis has to explain a bazillion of them

I absolutely agree with this, and it was conceived to basically rule out a creator.

quote:

As for the Big Bang: there is not one fact that supports the Big Bang hypothesis. The Big Bang hypothesis has been cobbled together with as its only foundations several lousy interpretations that no sensible person would ever accept. What is more: Big Bang cosmologists are very much aware that their dear hypothesis is decrepit.

Actually the math supports it, and the universe does seem to be expanding.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 138

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 9:59:18 AM

popeye1250

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Call the ghost busters.
As with all "clairvoyants", fortune tellers, etc I have only one question; "Give me the Powerball numbers."
A simple request but one that none of them can fullfill.

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Post #: 139

RE: Anyone believe in the supernatural? - 4/8/2007 10:02:29 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Actually the math supports it, and the universe does seem to be expanding.

Math wil support anything, up to and including epicycles. Any hypothesis is only as good as its axioms and is in no way supported by the math that is applied to those axioms.

There is no evidence at all that the universe is expanding. There are merely a couple of lousy interpretations that desperate physicists want people to swallow like gospel. Thus they have produced the Big Bang religion with themselves as the high priests and prophets.

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Post #: 140

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