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SirDiscipliner69 -> Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 5:00:17 AM)

Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach that allowed money money for third world natins that grew such products?

Would a humanitarian approach be more to your liking or would you rather crush the little guy in favor of greed and lower prices?


Ross
©º°¨¨°º©



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 5:06:24 AM)

I cant afford to pay more than I do for things.  To take a third stance, I would rather be able to financially survive myself, and that usualy means choosing the lower prices regardless of their larger social impact.  I supose your question is geared toward people who are financialy in a position to toss as much money around as they'd like, but I am fairly sure there are others in my boat.

DV



Termyn8or -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 6:30:23 AM)

I would. Not that I have money to throw around, but I get around that. What I do is not to buy anything new. My TV, car, fridge, stove, washer, dryer are all 20 years old at least. I like it that way.

When I need clothes I do check out the second hand stores, hey, a pair of Docker in my size for three bucks ? What would you do ?

OK, those Dockers were made by slave labor and should've cost three bucks new, but somebody anted up the $30 for them, it just wasn't me.

That's why it is more than all that. Paying a premium price usually means some suits get rich, not the people who actually make the product.

The answer is yes. When I have the money and time on my hands I will fill up my gas tank and go out into America's heartland and start getting my dairy from a private farmer. I'll start buying Amish meat. When I get the chance I will do everything I can to keep the multinationals from getting one thin dime of my money.

Yes.

T



juliaoceania -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 7:12:22 AM)

Not only would I, I do



juliaoceania -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 7:16:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I cant afford to pay more than I do for things.  To take a third stance, I would rather be able to financially survive myself, and that usualy means choosing the lower prices regardless of their larger social impact.  I supose your question is geared toward people who are financialy in a position to toss as much money around as they'd like, but I am fairly sure there are others in my boat.

DV


I have a part time throw away job, and yes, I still buy things from the vantage point of social responsibility. I did so when I was a single mom going to school full time (talk about living at the poverty line[:D]). I always end up ok, I rarely stress over money, and I feel better about my choices.

Now my mother is on Social Security and thinks like you do, and I understand how both of you feel and I am not putting you down or anything... just pointing out that not everyone that makes meager money has the same view or attitude (I also buy organic)



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 7:26:22 AM)

Fast reply...

I do my best to avoid shopping in places such as WalMart.  I am not by any means wealthy, but I do my best to shop at local grocers, and the like.  In the summer, much of my fruit is purchased from 'u-pick' farms and the like...it's actually cheaper than going to a chain supermarket, and it helps support the local farmer.  I have made purchases through the big box retailers when that seems to be the only affordable way for me to purchase something, but I do my best to avoid it.  I'd much rather spend an extra 1 - 10 dollars or so on something if I know that it means another person has better insurance because of it.

Now, if I were very financially comfortable, I would make sure that was the case each and every time, particularly if I knew it would help out a third world nation.  There is a bottled water company where I live that donates a portion of its proceeds to bringing clean drinking water to third world nations.  They also help in the research in doing such things.  It costs ten cents more than most bottled waters, and I buy it every chance I get.



stockingluvr54 -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 8:29:19 AM)

 I try and buy AMERICAN MADE as much as possible and that's getting real hard to do anymore. If nothing else it helps me sleep at night knowing I try and keep some jobs at home.....

So I guess my answer would be "no"....



KenDckey -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 8:51:17 AM)

Oh Hell no

I refuse to drive 100 miles to buy things just cause Walmart sells them.   And when you get there, they are exactly the same product - brand name and  all.

I don't believe that there are many truely American Products anylonger.   Not our food, not our houses, not our cars, not our clothing, nothing.   Oh I know that they do exist, but at some point along the chain, they don't.   Was the vehicle that transported them totally American?   Was the machine that pressed them totally American?   Was the......(fill in the blank)........ totally American?   No.   Probably not.

My morality said I should take care of my family first, provide for them first, then worry about someone else.   If that means that I have to spend all my time researching every item to assure myself that there was no part made by someone that wasn't morally responsible, then I don't believe that I am being morally responsible to my family.  And all that is to buy American where we don't 'EXPLOIT' (ROFLMAO) our workers.

Sorry, but I just don't see it as my responsibility to worry about what is being sold by whom.  I don't see where it is my responsibilty to see to it that mom and pop shops stay in business by selling their products at a higher rate than the larger chains can.    I don't see whre it is my responsibility to evaluate every product I buy to assure that it meets someone else's theory of moral responsibility.



Vendaval -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 8:58:15 AM)

I prefer purchasing local, organic, fair trade, etc.
Right now, that is not always financially possible.
 
 



ownedgirlie -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 9:37:41 AM)

Years ago I stopped buying products that supported practices I did not believe in.  And then I realized were I to truly do that, I would have to grow my own food and manufacture my own everything.  So now it's a pick & choose thing.



blushingflower -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 9:41:46 AM)

When I can afford it, I do usually choose organic and/or fair trade products. Many fair trade products are also produced in more environmentally sustainable ways. Unfortunately, I can't always afford it.
We all live on the same planet, and if I can make the world even a little better by something as simple as what tea I choose to purchase, well then, why the hell not?  A few extra cents in my bank account when I die won't benefit me, but less carbon in the atmosphere will benefit everyone.  I want the world I leave to my children to be a better one than I inherited from my parents.



toservez -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 11:51:26 AM)

There was once a great political cartoon in the USA Today. It was a picture of a bunch of people with pro union and buy American shirts on walking in and out of Wal-Mart.

My Master is an independent sales representative and one of his lines is the last American made of it’s kind left and it he say it does him ZERO good when talking to buyers when he brings this up, even if price is not an issue.

I think it would be great if people buy stuff at higher prices to try to help others but I see nothing in this culture that it could or would catch on to make a difference. We all can justify our own actions and far too many of us go through life pointing how others can improve things and never bother looking in the mirror ourselves.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 12:35:34 PM)

quote:

Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach that allowed money money for third world nations that grew such products?
No

quote:

Would a humanitarian approach be more to your liking or would you rather crush the little guy in favor of greed and lower prices?
No.

Define "fair trade". Define "humanitarian". Your definition would not be the same as mine.

The goods sold at that favorite target for the "fair trade" sector Walmart are made by people in "third world" countries. How a country like China, hosting the Olympics and having a active space program gets considered as "third world" is an issue unto itself. But I guess if the 'politically correct' put them on the same plain as the US, their position as the country leading the world in carbon emissions would have to be addressed. But on topic, the people making the goods sold at Walmart are living much better than they were prior to that market opening. Would you impose on China a US standard of minimum wage and all other labor rules? That would be "fair" and I'd support it. But to ask people in this country to pay more whose wages are depressed because other countries are not subject to US regulations is UN-fair.

Try opening a factory in the US and you'll be dealing with everything from an environmental study to hiring quotas. Open the same factory in China or anywhere  in the so called third world and they'll build the factory for you. You may be subject to 'nationalization' somewhere down the road, but that causes pragmatic business decision to come in play.

Your second question compares a "humanitarian approach" to "greed". That doesn't represent a prejudicial starting position does it?

Truth is this is a 'lip-service' argument. You'll get many here saying they are all for "fair trade" but when it comes time to pay with their pocketbooks its the low price that wins. After that the next decision is one of quality. Look at the US auto industry. Why is it that all of the US manufacturers are one quarter away from bankruptcy? People buy a $15,000 Honda and almost all of the cost is represented in the vehicle and getting it here. Buy a $15,000 GM product and you have $3,000 per vehicle for the benefits package for retired workers, $1,500 in environmental taxes, $500 in lawsuit protection. I wonder how many here supporting humanitarianism and "fair trade" drive a US made car? Or is "fair trade" supporting those in Japan making the Honda. 



sophia37 -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 3:37:59 PM)

Im just the opposite. I prefer to pay American workser a living wage. So I'll buy American when I can, not look to pay for higher costs for Chinese imports. 



popeye1250 -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 3:48:48 PM)

No. What do I care about what happens in third world countries? That's their business.
We need to get out of these one way "free trade" deals.
The less trade we have with foreign countries the better off we'll be.
I buy "local" and American whenever I can.
I haven't been in a Walmart since 2001.
I shop Costco and Sears.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 4:28:20 PM)

Popeye,
What Costco do you go to that sells Made in USA products? Sears has Craftsman, but Kenmore's are built with foreign parts, at best assembled in the USA.

That's the problem. It is damn near impossible to make sure the entire product and all its parts came from the USA. The world is much like the original "Roller-ball" (James Caan version), expect there were never "corporate wars". The sovereignty of countries is dissolving and only important to determine who to root for during the World Cup.

I'd also "prefer to pay American workers a living wage" but until/unless we retake the nation and elect leaders who will act pragmatically in the best interest of the USA instead of pandering to "interest groups", the preference is immaterial. The electorate is too easily fooled with Buzz-words and "talking points" to make a pragmatic decision for the collective good. "Good" defined as putting the interests of the legal citizens of the USA first. In theory, thats who our elected officials are supposed to represent.

Why then is giving amnesty to criminals in this county illegally an issue? Because the employers, better yet exploiters, of these people want the cheap labor, and the politicians, paid for by the employer PAC, all want them to vote for the party/person who facilitates their legitimacy. 

A level playing field for factories and/or employment? It would be a simple matter of reciprocity for all trading partners in tariff and regulations, but there is no way in hell that will get past the politicians and their employers - PACs.



Griswold -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach tha (4/3/2007 5:40:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach that allowed money money for third world nations that grew such products?
No

quote:

Would a humanitarian approach be more to your liking or would you rather crush the little guy in favor of greed and lower prices?
No.

Define "fair trade". Define "humanitarian". Your definition would not be the same as mine.

The goods sold at that favorite target for the "fair trade" sector Walmart are made by people in "third world" countries. How a country like China, hosting the Olympics and having a active space program gets considered as "third world" is an issue unto itself. But I guess if the 'politically correct' put them on the same plain as the US, their position as the country leading the world in carbon emissions would have to be addressed. But on topic, the people making the goods sold at Walmart are living much better than they were prior to that market opening. Would you impose on China a US standard of minimum wage and all other labor rules? That would be "fair" and I'd support it. But to ask people in this country to pay more whose wages are depressed because other countries are not subject to US regulations is UN-fair.

Try opening a factory in the US and you'll be dealing with everything from an environmental study to hiring quotas. Open the same factory in China or anywhere  in the so called third world and they'll build the factory for you. You may be subject to 'nationalization' somewhere down the road, but that causes pragmatic business decision to come in play.

Your second question compares a "humanitarian approach" to "greed". That doesn't represent a prejudicial starting position does it?

Truth is this is a 'lip-service' argument. You'll get many here saying they are all for "fair trade" but when it comes time to pay with their pocketbooks its the low price that wins. After that the next decision is one of quality. Look at the US auto industry. Why is it that all of the US manufacturers are one quarter away from bankruptcy? People buy a $15,000 Honda and almost all of the cost is represented in the vehicle and getting it here. Buy a $15,000 GM product and you have $3,000 per vehicle for the benefits package for retired workers, $1,500 in environmental taxes, $500 in lawsuit protection. I wonder how many here supporting humanitarianism and "fair trade" drive a US made car? Or is "fair trade" supporting those in Japan making the Honda. 


Extremely well put.

I always used to laugh at the PETA folks on the news screaming their lungs out, smearing blood on women wearing furs because it was cruel to animals...and doing so in their Nikes (made with leather).




Termyn8or -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 6:18:08 PM)

That's a mouthful. How American do we need to be ?

I have a 1987 Buick. OK, the ignition system is obviously Delco, you can kinda tell, so is the radio. But the fuel injectors are made by Bosch.

So where do we stand on that ? Bosch is not in a third world country, they are a world leader. They developed a gasoline engine fuel injection system that did not use a computer. This is much more difficult to do than in a deisel engine, actually a White engine. A German engineer stole the design and took advantage of the then extant copyright laws.

In the 80s, Sony moved their CRT production facilituies to the US. That is when they became 20" and 27" instead of 19" and 26". They were then assembled in the US or Mexico, and I'm sure shipping weight had alot to do with it.

I still like my old Sony, and even though I am displeased with the moves they have made in the last few years, I do not forget that if it weren't for Sony we would not be allowed video recorders. The MPAA sued Sony for selling Betamaxes because they could be used to violate copyright laws. But Sony won. I'm sure money was their motive, but the end result was good for us.

The only thing I've gone to Walmart for was an eye exam because I needed it NOW. Actually I needed glasses right now, or I can't drive. Very thorough exam I say. But the people working in the optical dept are probably not getting foodstamps like the rest of them. Optical is probably seperate from Walmart because of liability and other business issues. They probably just pay the rent and some vig off the top. Other than that they are probably autonomous.

I broke my glasses in the BIG power outage, and running around to get glasses was a trip. One place couldn't make them right away because they didn't have water at the time.

OK, anyone with a serious need can get a little off the narrow path. Real needs are real needs. Case in point, gasoline.

When you fill up your tank, you are supporting greedy multinationals and criminal governments. But what does one do, walk ?

It is nice to try, and be concious of the origins of what we buy. But we will never make a big dent in it. It simply is not possible.

Some Hondas and Toyotas are made in the US, some US cars are built overseas. One of the first imports of mass market was the Checkoslovakian Skoda, imported by Chrysler corporation in the 50-60s. Somewhere around there.

I remember the story in the late 70s early 80s where a whole warehouse full of imported cars literally rusted out without ever being titled nor driven. People wouldn't buy them.

Face it though, we are not the cat's ass when it comes to building things, and haven't been for awhile. Telarc had to bring in overseas experts from Phillips and Sony to produce the first US pressed compact disk (that played). Our folly into building VCRs was a joke too. Now we got CD and DVD, and have very rarely built a player here, and never one that was competitively priced for it's feature level and reliability.

You can buy a Lowe TV, which I think is about 6 grand for a 26". The remote control is about the weight of a small caliber handgun. Can anyone say where all the parts came from ? You can buy a Mercedes, are all the parts German ?

Everything is all mixed up now. It is nice to try to support those we want to support, and deny those who we do not, but it is quite difficult today.

Since it can't be done, I don't blame people for giving up. Let's face it, if you make less than about 20-30 an hour, you need some things cheap. If you need to buy a Kia, that is what you will do or you will walk or take the bus. If you want to watch TV and one is $2,000 and the other $200, I'll give you one guess what will happen.

I still maintain a strong aversion to big chain stores though. I would rather buy my junk at a mom and pop operation than a huge megamart. I think it was Bestbuy that recently fired a bunch of employees and offered their jobs back at like ½ the rate.

If they did this to me I would retaliate. Details not available due to CM rules, but it would not be pleasant and I would probably be gone forever. I don't mean from CM, I mean from the planet, I would just make sure not to be alone.

What Walmart does is sickening, they get government money, sometimes use eminent domain, sell under cost until all the competition is gone and then jack the prices up.

I remember a railroad using business tactics like that to quell the competition, and that resulted in the Sherman anti-trust act. Then that action was perverted to force the phone companies to disband and it seems they are all back together now. If I am not mistaken, Sherman was never repealed, but no worries, it was just reinterpreted.

Yes fellow children of big brother, the rules are very simple. They do what they want and we have to do what they want. Is it clear now ?

If you really want to buy a US made product, I mean really US made, let me suggest a box of paper clips. Missiles would be a good choice too, but the US made ones are falling behind in technology. I don't think the French would sell Exocets to private citizens, but I bet you can get some Moskits from the Russians.

I just don't see many other choices to buy American.

T



popeye1250 -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 6:46:17 PM)

Merc and Termin8tor, I couldn't have said it better.
All these big corporations see us as "consumers."
But what happens when the "consumers" don't have anymore money to consume because of outsourcing, lower pay, illegal workers etc?
You can be so efficient that you put yourself out of business.
When all the chickens come home to roost you get a "Depression."
Our govt and big business have lied to us.
Remember Nafta was supposed to create "high-paying manufacturing jobs?"
It's been 13 years since we instituted Nafta and those jobs have yet to materialize!
We need to get rid of a lot of people in govt and jail a lot in business. Especially those parasites on "K" street in DC.
We need to get out of these foolish "free-trade" deals.
We need people in Washington who will *LISTEN* to the American People.



petdave -> RE: Would you pay more for a product if you knew in doing so you would support a fair trade approach (4/3/2007 6:50:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I have a 1987 Buick. OK, the ignition system is obviously Delco, you can kinda tell, so is the radio. But the fuel injectors are made by Bosch.


True, but there's a Bosch fuel injector plant about 30 miles from me... an acquaintance of mine is an engineer there, makes good money. Like you said, globalization makes it complicated.

i pay a bit of a premium to buy things at my local hardware store instead of a big-box store. i'll spend 10% or so more for something made in the U.S. instead of China. The third world, i don't much care about.

...dave



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