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Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:14:13 PM

celestia

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Joined: 1/5/2005
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I was reading a chat today and happened to catch a conversation between a sub and a Dom that got me to thinking. The sub was stating that she finds it easy to manipulate the Doms she is speaking with and will know her true Dom when she finds one she can not do this to. Fine, all well and good for her decision in how to determine what works for her.

My question is, if a sub can manipulate a Dom, was either really what they claimed to be to begin with?

I would think that a sub would not have the intentions to manipulate the one she is serving, and that a Dom would be able to sense and squelch any of that behavior, if it were to happen, purposely or not.

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Post #: 1

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:25:48 PM

siamsa24

Posts: 2426
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I have the ability to manipulate almost anyone (please note the "almost"). Most of the time I don't even know that I'm doing it.
The difference with this girl is that she was doing it intentionally, I would tend to think that she is just playing games and trying to get things from people. I had a housemate like that last year and karma eventually came around and kicked her in the butt. Eventually this girl will have that happen to her as well.

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 2

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:34:47 PM

CitizenCane

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

I would think that a sub would not have the intentions to manipulate the one she is serving, and that a Dom would be able to sense and squelch any of that behavior, if it were to happen, purposely or not.

That assumes that all subs and doms are equally submissive or dominant, equally perceptive, equally able to conform their behavior to their intentions and viewing D/s in the same way. Some subs need to feel 'conquered'. Without this, they feel they are just playing a role, faking. Sometimes this need to be conquered is a reflection of internal fear- they feel that if someone is strong enough to overpower all their resistance, then that someone is also powerful enough to protect them. Some feel they don't deserve to get what they want, so they sabotage it.

Not everyone who wishes to be dominant is, of course- and not everyone who is, is dominant in the same way. A 'leadership' style dom may have a hard time making any headway with a sub who needs to be conquered. A more 'do it or else' kind of dom might have more success there, but feel completely let down by a sub who is perfectly willing to do everything she possibly can at his command.

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If silence is golden, why is duct tape silver?

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 3

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:39:26 PM

lil1v

Posts: 125
Joined: 4/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celestia

My question is, if a sub can manipulate a Dom, was either really what they claimed to be to begin with?

I would think that a sub would not have the intentions to manipulate the one she is serving, and that a Dom would be able to sense and squelch any of that behavior, if it were to happen, purposely or not.

I think you're correct that a sub shouldn't intend to manipulate the one she is serving.. and in a relationship a Dom should be able to read the sub well enough to pick up on the manipulation.

However, not all Doms are that bright. And there are many fakers out there as well.

Personally I totally agree with that sub. I would never accept a Dom I could manipulate. I would lose all respect for him.

I don't think that makes her less of a sub. She's looking for that right fit. She may have "bratty" or mischevious tendancies. Does that make her not a sub? No. But that does mean she's going to need a Dom who can handle that. Seems she hasn't found that Dom yet.

I myself relate a lot to her. I may not be an ultra book smart person. I cannot recite every verse of Shakespeare off the top of my head and I lose at Trivia all the time. But I am clever. I can manipulate naturally.. sometimes I don't even know I do it, sometimes I do. But rarely does a man ever catch onto it. There are a few.. like my ex-Master.. who he actually saw the wheels churning before I even got going.

I think its all about finding that right Dom for you. I don't really think it makes either person a bad Dom or sub, just not the right fit for each other.

But thats just me..

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V

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 4

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:54:07 PM

ManOwner

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Sacramento, California
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Most people aren't skilled enough in practical psychology to manipulate people easily. Plenty of Doms and subs are in this group. If this girl has the ability, then it's not necessarily evil. She's looking for someone that can beat her at her own game. I don't see much wrong with that. He probably will be the right one for her. A lot of subs advertise that they are difficult to control and only a very dominant type can master them.

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 5

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 3:57:58 PM

MrThorns

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Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

My question is, if a sub can manipulate a Dom, was either really what they claimed to be to begin with?

Just because someone leans towards a particular side of the power exchange, doesn't mean that they are any more or less able to manipulate, or be blindsided by a manipulation.

Have any dominants bought a piece of shit car from a shady car salesman? You betcha.

Many people go into things expecting there to be a certain level of trust. With the car salesman..hmm...ok. There's a bit more distrust there...so you take your time to check out the car...kick the tires, take it for a ride..seems ok. Then, sure enough...as soon as you get it 5 miles from the dealership, you begin to notice an odd smell from the engine...a strange vibration that only occurs at certain speeds, etc. Fortunately, in many states there are "Lemon Laws", so you can take the car back. When it comes to manipulative people..unfortunately...there are no such laws.

I don't believe in a dominant version of "Spidey Sense", just as I don't believe that dominants are psychic. We are...believe it or not...human. The woman you are referring to may very well be as submissive and slave-like as humanly possible, but if she wants a relationship, I would recommend that she try using some honesty and communication to find what it is she wants.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 6

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 4:02:54 PM

Padriag

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I'm with Cane on this one, I think he summed up some excellent points. To it I'll add this. Anyone can be manipulated, especially if that person trusts you. This submissive may think she's hit on a good "test" for dominance, in time she'll hopefully learn better. None of us is some smart or clever we can't be fooled. A dominant is less likely to be manipulated in some ways because of our nature, but it doesn't mean we are immune to it. As for her attitude about manipulation, all I can say is that personally I would not care for a submissive who behaved in such a way. I want obedience, not constant head games.

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to lil1v)

Post #: 7

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 4:05:49 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

My question is, if a sub can manipulate a Dom, was either really what they claimed to be to begin with?

Since this is discussing an on-line chat, you never know.

But what if the "Dom" was manipulating the "sub" by letting her think she could manipulate him?

'ya never know!

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 8

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 4:47:24 PM

celestia

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Joined: 1/5/2005
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Merc, I did not think of it that way, and it could be a very good possiblity, why would a Dom do this?

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We are, sun and moon, earth and sky. We were not ment to be the same, but to compliment one another.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 5:20:32 PM

Padriag

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Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

But what if the "Dom" was manipulating the "sub" by letting her think she could manipulate him?

'ya never know!

Ssssssshhh... you're giving away the good stuff! LOL

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 10

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 5:48:36 PM

SweetDommes

Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celestia
My question is, if a sub can manipulate a Dom, was either really what they claimed to be to begin with?

I would think that a sub would not have the intentions to manipulate the one she is serving, and that a Dom would be able to sense and squelch any of that behavior, if it were to happen, purposely or not.

I think it's more if the Dom/me realizes that he/she is being manipulated rather than if they allow it. I know that our boy does things to get his way sometimes but I recognize it and either allow it or put a stop to it depending on my mood and what it is that he wants (and how he is actually going about it, of course).

Some people would say that begging is a form of manipulation, but we don't see it that way. Some times he will come home from the store with some special dessert or something, hoping to be rewarded later - that's a form of manipulation. Examples could go on, but I'll spare you ... the thing is, it's up to the particular Dom/me to determine what is manipulative and what isn't, and what they will allow the sub to get away with and what they won't. Personally, I wouldn't allow a sub who uses that as the sole method of determining who is right for them even be considered for our house.

Sometimes it's amusing to see what the boy will do to try and get what he wants ... so yes, sometimes we allow ourselves to be manipulated ... does that make us less Dominant? not in our opinions.

(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 11

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 5:55:39 PM

EmeraldSlave2

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Wow don't know what to add really....except that I find it amusing how many "submissives" who swear they want to do nothing but please and obey, will go to SO much trouble to manipulate and make the dom conform to what THEY want under the guise of "testing."

And if the dom doesn't conform, or doesn't rise to their "test" then they are somehow just "not a dom."

(in reply to SweetDommes)

Post #: 12

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 6:44:51 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Wow don't know what to add really....except that I find it amusing how many "submissives" who swear they want to do nothing but please and obey, will go to SO much trouble to manipulate and make the dom conform to what THEY want under the guise of "testing."

And if the dom doesn't conform, or doesn't rise to their "test" then they are somehow just "not a dom."

Or perhaps not the Dom for them? I don't know if I'd go so far as advocating manipulation, but I kind of like it when I have to work a little to earn someone's submission. When they give it up too easy, it's exactly that, too easy.

Some here know I went through a "submissive" phase a few years back. I play a perfect little sub when I want to. But I wasn't submitting to anyone. I was little miss top from the bottom and I *always* got what I wanted. The few who called my bluff sent me packing and they are the few who are my friends today. I did find one that I didn't want to buck against, that is my mentor and friend Rapier.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 4/19/2005 6:46:51 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 6:47:55 PM

MrThorns

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Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

Wow don't know what to add really....except that I find it amusing how many "submissives" who swear they want to do nothing but please and obey, will go to SO much trouble to manipulate and make the dom conform to what THEY want under the guise of "testing."

And if the dom doesn't conform, or doesn't rise to their "test" then they are somehow just "not a dom."

Durned tootin'

I have to admit a bit of concern at those that feel that manipulation is a form of healthy, loving "test" in which they can find their twue dominant. How would those of you who feel this way respond to being tested by your dominant without your consent? I have a few tests in mind...

Let's test endurance..something a good slave should have. 12 hours (yes...only 12..I don't expect the impossible!)...tied to a cross, in a posture collar, and an enema bag. (Don't you dare muss my carpet, girl...)

Perhaps we should test a girl's selflessness by making her watch me take pleasure in another woman.

Test her loyalty and devotion by tattooing my mark on her ass.

Test her trust in you by performing an intense fireplay scene and igniting a line of Purell along her back.

Again...as a test, none of this would need to be consentual...right?

In all honesty...if you want to find your perfect top/bottom/slave/switch...whatever.. TALK to them. Be honest about who you are, what you need and want within your relationship. If they meet your needs...great! If not...ok...move on....better luck with the next one...more fish in the sea...etc.

(Me thinks this one has hit a nerve...)

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 14

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 7:09:34 PM

stormsfate

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I don't think its uncommon to test boundaries to see if they are there and if they hold up initially. I don't think many would tolerate it for long, but I've seen it come up in discussion a few times and most seem to recognize it for what it is. Knowing those boundaries are there provide a sense of security for some.

best regards,
fate

_____________________________

Vision? What do you know about MY vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you! Now ask yourself, are you really ready to see that vision? [/size

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 15

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 7:15:01 PM

uncollaredcandy

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Joined: 2/18/2005
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I understand both arguments here. I am a sub, but I have a hard time submitting to someone because they are Dom. Even when i am in a relationship I feel the need to test my limits over and over again and most of the time it ends up with me topping from the bottom, before i even realize what i am doing. I don't know how to change it or fix it. It is just the way I am right now.

(in reply to MrThorns)

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RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 7:23:30 PM

liltxsubby

Posts: 328
Joined: 11/18/2004
From: TX
Status: offline

I think there is a difference in testing and manipulating. I sometimes test my boundaries, just to see what I'll be able to get away with. (which has been proven time and again...whatever Fangs decides I'll be allowed lol). Is that being manipulative? I don't think so, I just like to know where the boundaries are and from time to time need to know they're concrete.

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(in reply to celestia)

Post #: 17

RE: Manipulation. - 4/19/2005 7:33:30 PM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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A good thing to do, candy, would be to sit down and think about why you can't give over control. What is it that makes you top from below and test limits? Impatience? Wanting to get what you want? Just because you can? Because you don't trust the Dom? Because you're actually a bottom, switch or maybe even a Domme rather than a sub ? Figure out why you're doing it, and then, if you want, you can work on changing it.

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Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
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(in reply to uncollaredcandy)

Post #: 18

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 1:41:04 AM

lil1v

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Joined: 4/4/2005
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I've been doing some thinking today and pondering and trying to really figure this out as I relate a lot to the sub in question. I found myself questioning my submissiveness. Questioning my judgement. Questioning myself on what I really want.. what I really need.

And then I got angry for letting this crap get to me. While I don't think that whether or not the Dom succumbs to manipulation is the sole test for the right Dom for a person, but I don't see why it can't be one of the criteria. Or why a person should be diminished in the eyes of others because they have different methods.

This sub seems to know herself. She knows her faults and is looking for a Dom who can handle it and maybe help her to stop.

Just because a sub tests you a bit at first, doesn't mean she's going to be testing you every day or playing mind games on you the rest of your relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Some here know I went through a "submissive" phase a few years back. I play a perfect little sub when I want to. But I wasn't submitting to anyone. I was little miss top from the bottom and I *always* got what I wanted. The few who called my bluff sent me packing and they are the few who are my friends today. I did find one that I didn't want to buck against, that is my mentor and friend Rapier.

- LA

I know you're a Domme, and actually what you said here made me really question .. am I sub or Domme? Well I know I'm not Domme.

But I do like what you've said here about being "Little Miss top from bottom".. and Then those that won your respect by calling your bluff. And then the one you "didn't want to buck against"..

I think thats maybe the key here... Finding that one that fits you. For a sub, the one you don't want to buck against.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I have to admit a bit of concern at those that feel that manipulation is a form of healthy, loving "test" in which they can find their twue dominant. How would those of you who feel this way respond to being tested by your dominant without your consent?

I found this entire post insulting. If you want a slave who can be tied up for 12 hrs, or watch you have sex with someone else, or take a tattoo on her ass.. then by all means make that your criteria. But activities don't a sub/slave make. Just as wielding a whip doesn't make one a Dom.

As far as I've read the initial question, this "manipulation" was in the begining. I read in other posts on various other topics that Good Dom/mes love a challenge. So I don't get your post really. As far as I can see, this girl just wants to see if the Dom can really handle her before she gets too far into it.. Is this really that bad of a thing? (or would you rather her suppress this and come out with it later once you've collared her?)

And yes I know Doms who "test" subs on their submissiveness prior to collaring. Actually, I've had some "test" me within the first few moments of conversation. Am I a good sport about it? No. I tend to call them out on it.

And yes I agree that I think this thread has hit a nerve.. with many people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormsfate

I don't think its uncommon to test boundaries to see if they are there and if they hold up initially. I don't think many would tolerate it for long, but I've seen it come up in discussion a few times and most seem to recognize it for what it is. Knowing those boundaries are there provide a sense of security for some.

I don't think its uncommon to test boundaries either. Its very secure knowing that there will be consistancy in those boundaries. It also helps you have more confidence in the Dom/me.

There is a little difference between testing.. and manipulation though..

quote:

ORIGINAL: uncollaredcandy
I understand both arguments here. I am a sub, but I have a hard time submitting to someone because they are Dom. Even when i am in a relationship I feel the need to test my limits over and over again and most of the time it ends up with me topping from the bottom, before i even realize what i am doing. I don't know how to change it or fix it. It is just the way I am right now.

candy - definately undertand that. And I don't think you should submit to someone just because they claim to be Dom. I think maybe the reason you keep testing limits is because you're insecure in the relationship and you push in hopes that the Dom will be consistant and give you that security... but I don't think you've been able to find that.

I think one day you will find that one Dom that you won't want to "buck" against. You might test the boundaries once or twice, but after that you'll be secure.

Each of us requires a different style of Dom/me or sub to make us happy. We're not all cookie cutters of each other. Just because someone isn't what you wanted or needed, doesn't mean they aren't perfect for someone else.

_____________________________

V

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 19

RE: Manipulation. - 4/20/2005 4:18:21 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
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(Edited because how i am thinking and what i am typing are not coinciding with each other.)

Happy Wednesday y'all!!

~smilezz~

< Message edited by smilezz -- 4/20/2005 4:49:30 AM >

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